GUILTY NH - Abby Hernandez, 14, North Conway, 9 Oct 2013 - #15

[Steleheart]

You are probably right that most we some of think of as abducted from a mall may have been on mall property outside rather than inside. But, Adam Walsh was 6, not a tiny toddler...

And I can't imagine Kibby would have brought Abby inside a mall to drop her off (if he did) but rather to the parking lot. Agreed, the mall parking lot, unless it was midnight and totally dark, is probably safer than the dark road.

LOL Yes, but with my little ones now in their 20's , 6 to me is tiny, :floorlaugh:


And honestly I still cannot imagine Kibby dropping her off at all (if he did), never mind in a 'safe place'.

 

[BillNH]

How often do we hear about those cases? They would definitely be posted here. I can think of a few over a period of 20 years, presumably b/c of how brazen they are, more likely to get attention and stick in our heads years later.

I was offering my opinion on that, and when my children were young, it happened a few times, or at least it was attempted a few times so it maybe wouldn't show up necessarily on these pages. I lived in New York then and it may have been a local worry or caution, but it's stuck in my head. It's ok if no one agrees, we all have our own personal worries for whatever reason.

 

[BillNH]

en

So let me understand. If Abby were dropped at the mall she would be at greater risk? Greater than on that dark road? If it were your 19 year old daughter, and understand my 2 are 20 and 24 and I worry too, so I get it - But given the law describing a 'safe place' where would you want your child let go?

A dark lonely road? Serious question.

There is a hospital not far from there - push her out and speed away. I cannot imagine how scared she was in those same clothes now in the dark, walking down that same road.

That's not a safe place for my girls, not my girls, no.

So legit question - what is the legal definition of a 'safe place' ?

Just shows the difference in how people think...

:moo: :cow:

Let me try again. If the definition of a "safe place" only meant official buildings then it would never happen if there was a risk to the kidnapper being caught immediately. So the definition of a safe place must be more general than "the safest place". As I said, free of imminent, obvious or inherent danger. No there is no inherent danger at a shopping center, be it inside or out, and maybe in broad daylight a public parking lot would be safer as opposed to a dark road, but I don't think the statute means " the safest place possible". I believe is just means that a place where there is a fair expectation that the released victim will not immediately be put in harms way and I believe that in Abby's case this expectation was met by where she was dropped off. The point being that a kidnapper cannot release a victim from an airplane at 30k feet with no parachute, and then argue for class B status because they released the victim. Of course if it were my child I would want that place to be safer than a dark road at night but there is no inherent, obvious or imminent danger on the North South road in North Conway at 1030pm on a Sunday night, and she made it home from that point without further incident. I think you would be hard pressed to find any place in North Conway that would have negated the class B status. Not wanting our children on a dark road in the middle of the night is something everyone worries about but the area is not crime ridden and dangerous and there is a reasonable expectation that no harm would come to her after release.

 

[BillNH]

And please do not take my comments on this as some sort of defense of Kibby. I was only trying to clarify what I believe a "safe place" means in respect to this kidnapping law. As a parent, no place would be safe enough, but that's emotional. As to the law, I believe I am correct in how I interpret a "safe place" but I also believe it is vague in its wording so they have some latitude in how it's applied.

 

[skibaboo]

I wish to say this so please indulge me;
I am not an educated person and I realize that some of my posts of late may seem to be snarky / trollish. I am sorry for that. I usually try to be clear and factual in my posts. I think it is important when we endeavor to sleuth, discover, research and otherwise assist in the solving of crimes, especially those of missing persons, and in my case, missing children, to be thorough and precise.
Some posters will understand that many of us, Cat, Bessie, Look, Take, Ski, Clu, Mamaj, Mom, Tlc, Rad, Salem and so many others, have had a large emotional stake in this particular case for any of a variety of reasons. But there is something else.
The compassion that is involved in looking, researching and sleuthing, calling in tips, and actually doing something, rather than just the jibber jabber of a chat box, is for some of us here, more than just an interest or a time filler. It is something we are driven to. I cannot explain it.+

So when some of us insist on keeping with TOS and the Spirit of Websleuths, it is because we understand the goal here. It is that goal that kept me from registering on other sites.

Abby is home.

That was the goal.

I would love, love, love to see her discussion thread closed. not deleted, but closed.

SOLVED.

I would love to see a Kibby thread Where this minor victim is only referred to with initials.

I needed, for many reason, to get that out in type, not just for my own spirit, but for anyone who may be feeling the same.

This has been one very intense case.

:loveyou:

Stele.


:cow:

:loveyou: stele. I'm right there with you!

 

[tlcya]

when you have spent months with a dangerous captor who has allegedly abused you anywhere away from him is a place of safety by comparisson. JMO

 

[white rabbit]

wow. powerful posts these last two pages.

skibaboo, no offense taken whatsoever, and mine was not directed at you...rabbits have thick skins...

rabbits also have big mouths and are notoriously impatient...:giggle:

bill, my posts taken out of context completely "defend" kibby, per se, so don't think we're all reading into yours. you're making excellent points independent of any judgement for or against guilt and innocence. please keep doing exactly what you're doing.

stele, great post. you are not only educated IMO but well-spoken, thoughtful, and insightful.

just a few thoughts for the day.

 

[cluciano63]

When is the next court appearance?

 

[LookingHoping]

I wish to say this so please indulge me;
I am not an educated person and I realize that some of my posts of late may seem to be snarky / trollish. I am sorry for that. I usually try to be clear and factual in my posts. I think it is important when we endeavor to sleuth, discover, research and otherwise assist in the solving of crimes, especially those of missing persons, and in my case, missing children, to be thorough and precise.
Some posters will understand that many of us, Cat, Bessie, Look, Take, Ski, Clu, Mamaj, Mom, Tlc, Rad, Salem and so many others, have had a large emotional stake in this particular case for any of a variety of reasons. But there is something else.
The compassion that is involved in looking, researching and sleuthing, calling in tips, and actually doing something, rather than just the jibber jabber of a chat box, is for some of us here, more than just an interest or a time filler. It is something we are driven to. I cannot explain it.+

So when some of us insist on keeping with TOS and the Spirit of Websleuths, it is because we understand the goal here. It is that goal that kept me from registering on other sites.

Abby is home.

That was the goal.

I would love, love, love to see her discussion thread closed. not deleted, but closed.

SOLVED.

I would love to see a Kibby thread Where this minor victim is only referred to with initials.

I needed, for many reason, to get that out in type, not just for my own spirit, but for anyone who may be feeling the same.

This has been one very intense case.

:loveyou:

Stele.


:cow:

<3. Absolutely with you on this.

 

[Steleheart]

Let me try again. If the definition of a "safe place" only meant official buildings then it would never happen if there was a risk to the kidnapper being caught immediately. So the definition of a safe place must be more general than "the safest place". As I said, free of imminent, obvious or inherent danger. No there is no inherent danger at a shopping center, be it inside or out, and maybe in broad daylight a public parking lot would be safer as opposed to a dark road, but I don't think the statute means " the safest place possible". I believe is just means that a place where there is a fair expectation that the released victim will not immediately be put in harms way and I believe that in Abby's case this expectation was met by where she was dropped off. The point being that a kidnapper cannot release a victim from an airplane at 30k feet with no parachute, and then argue for class B status because they released the victim. Of course if it were my child I would want that place to be safer than a dark road at night but there is no inherent, obvious or imminent danger on the North South road in North Conway at 1030pm on a Sunday night, and she made it home from that point without further incident. I think you would be hard pressed to find any place in North Conway that would have negated the class B status. Not wanting our children on a dark road in the middle of the night is something everyone worries about but the area is not crime ridden and dangerous and there is a reasonable expectation that no harm would come to her after release.

BillNH ,Let me first say thank you for your insights, I appreciate it. Also, I do not think anyone feels that you are defending the accused by presenting a view that is largely neutral and unbiased.

So we disagree on the inherent safety of North South Road and that is my point regarding the statute. There is no definition of "safe place" and that is because it has not been argued yet. True, if it were defined as only municipal buildings in the day time that would be self defeating. But along the lines which you addressed, free from imminent danger, bodily injury, inherent, obvious, etc., I can see some kind of guideline being necessary there.

But I think a larger question is why did the prosecution not grab a class A from the get-go. They seemed to want to hold him on one mil cash, but a class B? If they had charged a class A felony kidnapping,, any attorney could successfully argue the voluntary nature of her release, but that would have opened the door to admitting he had, in fact, held her captive. What a conundrum!

I think they skipped all that purposely in an effort to make it small, make him talk. He likes the jibber jabber after all, IMO.

So my arguments about a safe place all return to the fact that there is no definition in the statute and the State is using that gray area as part of their strategy.

You say tomato but who the heck says tomahto?

Tumata, Patata. :cow:

 

[Steleheart]

wow. powerful posts these last two pages.

skibaboo, no offense taken whatsoever, and mine was not directed at you...rabbits have thick skins...

rabbits also have big mouths and are notoriously impatient...:giggle:

bill, my posts taken out of context completely "defend" kibby, per se, so don't think we're all reading into yours. you're making excellent points independent of any judgement for or against guilt and innocence. please keep doing exactly what you're doing.

stele, great post. you are not only educated IMO but well-spoken, thoughtful, and insightful.just a few thoughts for the day.

Silly Rabbit,,,

:loveyou:

 

[Steleheart]

When is the next court appearance?

The date wasn't given as the PC hearing was scheduled for 8/12, but the hearing on the evidence (moving the trailer/container) pushed the date up 30 days with no specific date, so Mid Sept.
I will find a link if I can, but my bookmarks are all askewy bluey lately.

 

[MamaJoJo]

I wish to say this so please indulge me;
I am not an educated person and I realize that some of my posts of late may seem to be snarky / trollish. I am sorry for that. I usually try to be clear and factual in my posts. I think it is important when we endeavor to sleuth, discover, research and otherwise assist in the solving of crimes, especially those of missing persons, and in my case, missing children, to be thorough and precise.
Some posters will understand that many of us, Cat, Bessie, Look, Take, Ski, Clu, Mamaj, Mom, Tlc, Rad, Salem and so many others, have had a large emotional stake in this particular case for any of a variety of reasons. But there is something else.
The compassion that is involved in looking, researching and sleuthing, calling in tips, and actually doing something, rather than just the jibber jabber of a chat box, is for some of us here, more than just an interest or a time filler. It is something we are driven to. I cannot explain it.+

So when some of us insist on keeping with TOS and the Spirit of Websleuths, it is because we understand the goal here. It is that goal that kept me from registering on other sites.

Abby is home.

That was the goal.

I would love, love, love to see her discussion thread closed. not deleted, but closed.

SOLVED.

I would love to see a Kibby thread Where this minor victim is only referred to with initials.

I needed, for many reason, to get that out in type, not just for my own spirit, but for anyone who may be feeling the same.

This has been one very intense case.

:loveyou:

Stele.


:cow:

As always, Stele, you have touched on something I've been thinking a lot about. For me, having been intimately involved (as intimately as a forum may allow) in Abby's case from the get-go, reading the post-return analysis has been terribly difficult. While, yes, when she returned, I was traveling and only had intermittent access to the internet, I see now that it was a good excuse. Because, now that I'm back, it is utterly impossible for me to get involved in discussing Kibby and his freak-a-zoid-ness, his possible defense, his attorney's game plan, Abby's torture, Abby's day-to-day in the hands of Kibby, the God-forsaken container, Abby's jaw, North-South Road…anything. I feel (this is the me-show right now) that now that she's back, now that she's safe, now that she wasn't killed, now that she didn't run away, now that her life is forever changed because of this idiot, that I, who couldn't sleep at nights because I was thinking about what could have possibly happened to Abby, can't bear picking it all apart. (And, I certainly couldn't bear to read another website's comments where there isn't the stringent TOS of WS.) It's weird to me because, on many other cases, I have picked apart the aftermath with an analytical eye devoid of great emotion. But, Abby's ordeal and the extreme way I felt about her wellbeing over the last 10 months, has made me feel like I shouldn't have a voice in her aftermath. I've tried to chime in a couple of times but I always erase my post before I hit send. My voice can only utter that I am so ecstatically happy that she is alive and home and strong and facing the future straight on and that her family and friends have her back.

This is a short (haha) way of explaining why I haven't been right in there with all of you, posting away. You all go to it. Figure it out. I'll keep reading and may join in the discussion again, maybe.

Abby, I am so glad you found your way home. So, so glad.

 

[LookingHoping]

As always, Stele, you have touched on something I've been thinking a lot about. For me, having been intimately involved (as intimately as a forum may allow) in Abby's case from the get-go, reading the post-return analysis has been terribly difficult. While, yes, when she returned, I was traveling and only had intermittent access to the internet, I see now that it was a good excuse. Because, now that I'm back, it is utterly impossible for me to get involved in discussing Kibby and his freak-a-zoid-ness, his possible defense, his attorney's game plan, Abby's torture, Abby's day-to-day in the hands of Kibby, the God-forsaken container, Abby's jaw, North-South Road&#8230;anything. I feel (this is the me-show right now) that now that she's back, now that she's safe, now that she wasn't killed, now that she didn't run away, now that her life is forever changed because of this idiot, that I, who couldn't sleep at nights because I was thinking about what could have possibly happened to Abby, can't bear picking it all apart. (And, I certainly couldn't bear to read another website's comments where there isn't the stringent TOS of WS.) It's weird to me because, on many other cases, I have picked apart the aftermath with an analytical eye devoid of great emotion. But, Abby's ordeal and the extreme way I felt about her wellbeing over the last 10 months, has made me feel like I shouldn't have a voice in her aftermath. I've tried to chime in a couple of times but I always erase my post before I hit send. My voice can only utter that I am so ecstatically happy that she is alive and home and strong and facing the future straight on and that her family and friends have her back.

This is a short (haha) way of explaining why I haven't been right in there with all of you, posting away. You all go to it. Figure it out. I'll keep reading and may join in the discussion again, maybe.

Abby, I am so glad you found your way home. So, so glad.

Oh thank you. I love you MJJ&#8230; this made me all teary. Happy and Sad Teary&#8230; mostly thrilled, knowing she's home, ahhh&#8230;. and fully agree with you. She has such a massive staircase ahead of her to climb, unless we can literally hold her hand, we shouldn't be there, don't need to discuss which step to take nor surround her so she can't move on, etc. etc.. Nothing, NOTHING that is being said right now is helping anything. It is a standstill of chatter, guesses at legal definitions and why this attorney said this or this one didn't do that. There is no point nor solution in it imho. When more is known, or whenever&#8230;open up an ARREST thread and talk about the arrested/charged only. There is nothing to sleuth here and there is nothing to solve, nobody to find. AH is home, somebody is is awaiting trial. By Some Amazing Miracle, she is home with her family.

 

[Jade127402]

My question is why does the Hernandez family "Abby" need an attorney or attorney's". The state will prosecute Kibby so why is there a need for her to have an attorney in this case? I think there is something funny with this entire case and things don't add up in my opinion.

 

[tlcya]

to be a spokesperson/media handler. To guide them through the trial process, advocating for them and advising them of what to expect and what THEIR rights are in the criminal process. The state will not be representing Abby. The state represents the state. Sometimes what is best for the state's case is not the same thing as what is best for the victim.

It is not the state's job to look out for Abby's interests. Now she has an attorney whose job it is to do just that.

 

[cluciano63]

to be a spokesperson/media handler. To guide them through the trial process, advocating for them and advising them of what to expect and what THEIR rights are in the criminal process. The state will not be representing Abby. The state represents the state. Sometimes what is best for the state's case is not the same thing as what is best for the victim.

It is not the state's job to look out for Abby's interests. Now she has an attorney whose job it is to do just that.

This may be true, but I don't recall victims getting lawyers too often. Jmo

 

[CatFancier]

This may be true, but I don't recall victims getting lawyers too often. Jmo

Wearing my regular poster hat: When they are discussed negatively all over MSM and SM and made to look like a party in a violent crime where they are the victim, they should get their own lawyer. And that it's free is all the better. By the end of this, I hope Kibby gets so much time that he doesn't see freedom and that everyone who blamed Abby for her own disappearance eats their words. This girl has been through more than most according to Jane Young in my own signature, she deserves to walk down the street someday, feeling good about herself.

 

[2Hope4]

Bill this is how I see this. The family's representative said:
"Abby was violently abducted by a stranger. For many months, she suffered numerous acts of unspeakable violence. "
(in many places in MSM, can reference on http://www.bringabbyhome.com/

To me, unless I hear something different from official sources this "is" the current state of the investigation. Abby was kidnapped by a stranger and suffered violence. In light of this, I see any talk that Abby somehow had a hand in her own disappearance as misguided victim blaming. MOO.

While this may be completely true, LE hasn't said such, and at this point, the perp hasn't been charged with such.

We sure didn't take everything Jose Baez said in the Casey Anthony case, nor the attorney for the Parsons in the Erica Parson case as the gospel, be all, end all. Instead, the statements were put up against what was in MSM and what LE had said. So I'm not sure why this spokesman gets more lead way than in other cases. And those were just the two cases that came to mind immediately but there are more.

Media wants ratings, attorneys want to taint a jury and put their client in the best light, LE has a case to solve....each has their own agenda. What this spokesman's agenda is hasn't been determined. Some have stated perhaps to extinguish some of the online and perhaps in the community rumors that abound. I don't know. Time will tell. Charges will be added if what he said is true, IMO.

No doubt in my mind at all that being away from her family for 9 months wasn't horrendous enough. Yes I believe the perp has a motive, and what will come out later won't be good. I don't doubt that. While it hasn't been stated by LE what happened, as they repeatedly have stated they just don't know yet!!! They haven't said where she was held, if it was the same place the entire time, if she was moved around, how she was abducted, how she was returned, etc. So much is not known at this point. LE may have gotten additional statements and evidence since their last release, but we don't know what yet.

Again, yes I believe Abby is a victim of being kept from her family. Any emotional, physical, or sexual abuse has not been verified at this point. I know what I believe, and again, I don't think it will be good, but we don't have those facts.

As for closing this thread....why? Because people still have unanswered questions? Well that happens in every case. Sometimes even after the trial there is still unanswered questions. Some cases remain open even after the trial. Let's be honest, this thread didn't bring Abby home. The mass media coverage didn't bring Abby home. The mass social coverage didn't bring Abby home. Beyond all odds. Beyond all statistics, Abby is HOME!!! I don't think a single poster here isn't elated that she was returned!! We don't see that often, thus we wonder WHY? Not to put Abby down. NO! Not at all. Not to blame Abby. NO! Not at all!! But in my mind, I want to know what made her release possible. She has been with him 9 months, so even if he used a fake name the whole time, he had to think she would be able to identify him. Maybe even know where she had been held. So it was a great risk in returning her. What was his mindset? Was it because he was possibly facing jail time for other crimes? If so, he didn't do as many perps and murder her (THANKFULLY!!), he opted to return her to home. Whether that was at the mall, the exact place he abducted her from, from the NS road, or right at her driveway, we don't know. But HOME was the destination!!! Miracle indeed!!!

Now we await the criminal trial aspect, and hope to learn what we can to get into the mind of these criminals, and arm ourselves with that knowledge to either help prevent us or a family member from becoming a part of the same crime, or to help solve other cases. Knowing how the criminal thinks, and their motives, etc puts us one step closer to looking for those same traits in other unsolved cases, or currently missing cases. If we can profile that aspect, while we may never understand it, it's possible it can be useful in determining the outcome in other cases.

 

[WantingToHelp]

The attorney said there was all of this violence going on and LE says there was no serious bodily injury. Strange.

<modsnip>

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...le-violence/W6KVAbNM68VZpkZAyB3YcM/story.html

My guess is that "no serious bodily injury" means nothing broken and no stab wounds or gunshot wounds.

as far as dropping her off on north/south rd, she could have been dropped off at the part of the road where her house is. There are little paths that I'm guessing she has used before and could have used the night she was released. Maybe a safe place to them is right behind her house??