Identified! NV - Washoe Co., WhtFem 156UFNV, 25-35, Sheep's Flat Trail, Jul'82 - Mary Edith Silvani

[Charlie99909]

With a size 10 those are comparable to a mens size 30 waist. For a woman that's a big size. A woman I work with is roughly the same size and shape as our Jane Doe and she is a size 2. That's a huge difference in pant size. Especially cause the pants sit much higher on the womans body, just about her stomach, so it is possible they were pregnancy jeans.

 

[carbuff]

With a size 10 those are comparable to a mens size 30 waist. For a woman that's a big size. A woman I work with is roughly the same size and shape as our Jane Doe and she is a size 2. That's a huge difference in pant size. Especially cause the pants sit much higher on the womans body, just about her stomach, so it is possible they were pregnancy jeans.

Fashion would like you to think that's a big size A woman who's a size 2 today would have been a 6 or 8 in 1982 -- they try to keep size 12 to 14 as "average." The average woman has grown bigger, so the scale has shifted upward. Yes, they're still larger than I would have expected, but not by as much as it seems with today's numbers.

Size 10 jeans are in keeping with a medium t-shirt, so maybe she just liked her clothes baggy.

Now that I think of it, sloppy clothes over a swim suit sounds like maybe she was at a beach or pool party.

 

[Charlie99909]

I would like to see if there was any sand in her shoes. That way we could determine beach or not.

 

[punklove]

Fashion would like you to think that's a big size A woman who's a size 2 today would have been a 6 or 8 in 1982 -- they try to keep size 12 to 14 as "average." The average woman has grown bigger, so the scale has shifted upward. Yes, they're still larger than I would have expected, but not by as much as it seems with today's numbers.

Thats actually part of the reason I brought it up - the jeans were size medium 1982, the size 10/12 was in todays sizes not from 1982.

38 - 32 - 42 are the typical measurements for 'todays' size 10/12 and Im having a hard time understanding how someone that weighs 115 pounds could actually wear that size pants wtihout using something to hold them up but its not impossible.

Honestly, though, like I was saying my post - its not all that unncommon to wear pants that are too large for whatever reason but the shoe thing I find really curious. I noticed the shoes first and then attempted to see if any of her other clothing seemed ill fitting.

The shoe thing just seems odd to me, when someone that wears shoes that are too small do they typically get bruising in the big toe nail area? Would it be possible to be on one tow and not the other? One big toe had 'entensive' bruising, did they other show anything? Im wondering if thats where the toe bruising came from?

 

[punklove]

The shoes are interesting, but a size 6 isn't that small for a woman her size. A little below average, but not a lot. It does make me wonder if that was the size she wore before being pregnant.

I never thought of that, its a brilliant point - womens feet do grow (and stay) larger after being pregnant, its quite possible that she was wearing shoes that were once hers but no longer fit as they once did due to pregnancy.

I'm not sure the jeans are not that far out of line. I know that at certain times of the month (ahem) the bloating I experienced sent me into at least a size larger jeans. Or maybe she just liked her jeans looser. Somewhat oversize jeans is also a common practice with dancers etc. who wear a size that can be pulled on over their tights without taking time to change. And if she'd had a child, her hips and waist might be larger than you'd expect for someone her size. Or they might have been from earlier, when she was still losing pregnancy weight.

Its just such a huge difference in sizes - the jean 'fit' was much different then (known as mom jeans) so it is possible that she could wear jeans that fit at the waist but much too big elsewhere but Im just unsure why.

It would be like a man buying pants that are 3-4 sizes to big and trying to wear them, the big pants arent really something that concerned me it was more the shoes.

This is the problem I have - even if she were pregnant why would she continue to wear shoes that dont fit? Even more confusing, why would she wear shoes that dont fit when she has an 'entensive' bruised toe?

I'm starting to have this mental picture of the guy marching her down the trail, holding her closely with one arm while holding the gun against her with the other. Then telling her to sit down, and executing her

Yeah.

 

[carbuff]

Thats actually part of the reason I brought it up - the jeans were size medium 1982, the size 10/12 was in todays sizes not from 1982.

38 - 32 - 42 are the typical measurements for 'todays' size 10/12 and Im having a hard time understanding how someone that weighs 115 pounds could actually wear that size pants wtihout using something to hold them up but its not impossible.

Honestly, though, like I was saying my post - its not all that unncommon to wear pants that are too large for whatever reason but the shoe thing I find really curious. I noticed the shoes first and then attempted to see if any of her other clothing seemed ill fitting.

The shoe thing just seems odd to me, when someone that wears shoes that are too small do they typically get bruising in the big toe nail area? Would it be possible to be on one tow and not the other? One big toe had 'entensive' bruising, did they other show anything? Im wondering if thats where the toe bruising came from?

BBM -- That's the question -- Lee Riders don't come in "medium," so I assumed they meant about 10 in 1982 sizes, like that was what the tag said. But if both shirt and jeans really were "medium," she probably just liked a looser fit, or was losing weight after pregnancy, or something like that.

Here's a pointer to the current size chart for Lee jeans: http://www.lee.com/wps/wcm/connect/lee-en_us/customer_service/size/. I couldn't find one for Lee Riders for 1982, but I'll keep looking.

Too-small shoes can cause toe bruising -- and it might be on only one foot, because most people's feet aren't the same size. If her feet were a bit different, she might have bought shoes that fit the smaller foot?

 

[punklove]

BBM -- That's the question -- Lee Riders don't come in "medium," so I assumed they meant about 10 in 1982 sizes, like that was what the tag said. But if both shirt and jeans really were "medium," she probably just liked a looser fit, or was losing weight after pregnancy, or something like that.

Here's a pointer to the current size chart for Lee jeans: http://www.lee.com/wps/wcm/connect/lee-en_us/customer_service/size/. I couldn't find one for Lee Riders for 1982, but I'll keep looking.

Too-small shoes can cause toe bruising -- and it might be on only one foot, because most people's feet aren't the same size. If her feet were a bit different, she might have bought shoes that fit the smaller foot?

I couldnt find the size chat for 1982 either so I emailed them and asked, the person could have been wrong but seemed fairly confident.

Its possible that they could have been something she wore while pregnant - the jeans were much higher up than jeans now, they fit on high on the waist. (like this so its possible that she would have to buy several sizes larger to be able to fit around a pregnant belly.

I wonder how far apart the footprints were? I would assume that if she were being held at gunpoint while walking the prints would be quite close together, though frankly I think it must have happened like that.

It seems the person that killed her had it planned, pulling over into the parking area, getting out of the car, walking with her until he kills her then turns directly around and walks back to the parking area.

The jeans arent that big of an issue for me, since people do often wear oversized clothing. I find it more curious as to why she would be wearing shoes that (possibly) are too small. Its one thing to continue wearing clothing after giving birth (or losing weight, whatever) that is too large - its not uncommon at ALL for women to do that but why continue to stuff her feet into shoes that dont fit (if thats the case)? The only reason to do that would be because you havent got money to replace them.

I wonder how much they interviewed people in/around the area within the 24-ish hour time frame? The cars in the parking area? Anyone they happened to see while hiking/camping in the area? Any strange noises like screaming, gun shots? Since it seems like the middle of nowhere, did they interview any gas stations or places to eat that were closest to the area that she was killed?

Most people make sure to fill up with gas before getting on a major highway as to not have to stop again so its possible the person stopped before or after she was killed to fill up or get food before getting on the interstate?

I find it interesting that the people that kidnapped Jaycee Lee Dugard in Lake Tahoe (Phillip Craig Garrido) apparently is being looked into for the murder of several women in the same time frame the UID was and that he would leave them in remote areas. This one is interesting:

"In 1976, Garrido kidnapped Katherine Callaway in South Lake Tahoe, California. He took her to a Reno, Nevada warehouse where he sexually assaulted her"

Isnt mount rose highway in between south lake tahoe and reno? I doubt its related at all, I just find it stange that he seemed to enjoy kidnapping the person then driving quite a distance to rape or kill them somewhere else.

 

[tamar]

I'm 5'7" and wear a size 7 shoe, therefore I think it's reasonable to assume the shoes were hers.

view 1983 ad for Lee Jeans

 

[Charlie99909]

Those are some high waisted jeans. Ok then, now we see exactly where the jeans came on her body.

Who thinks she gave birth in the last year? I think it is a good possibility.

 

[punklove]

Shoe size is most typically proportional to height, Though not always exact - statistically speaking height can be predicted by someones shoe size and vice versa. The measurement of a humans foot is the exact same length as that persons forearm, people that are taller typically have longer limbs and therefore bigger feet.

Forensic scientists have used anthropometric measurements (in this case for shoe sizes) for dozens of years as a way of determining information about the dead when there is no body present in order to help with identification. Its quite possible that she was 5'5 and wore a size 6 shoe, but statistically it seems more likely that her actual foot size would be larger.

I only brought up the shoe/jeans thing because I was trying to get a better idea of who she was, if her shoes were too small (and the cause of the extensive bruising on her toes) why would she be wearing them? Wearing tight shoes is quite painful, add in the 'extensive bruising on her toe and it seems it would be unbearable. Its more the bruising on her toes that make me feel that its possible her shoes didnt fit.

In regards to the giving birth thing - Im just not sure. The vagueness surrounding the description of the 'abdominal scar' and it saying that she 'may' have given birth before make me wonder why they are being
vague when its a very black or white issue.

There were only two things that I could think of that would cause a 4-5 inch abdonimal scar in a female, a c-section or a tummy tuck. When you gave the update you said that she had stretch marks on her stomach which makes me lean much more towards the c-section - when you have a tummy tuck they typically cut off the skin on the bottom part of the stomach to remove the stretch marks.

I wonder how healed the scar was and if they did an autopsy on her, if so they would have been able to pinpoint how long it had been since giving birth (if she did so).

Wasnt there a dead baby found somewhere in that general area at some point?

 

[tamar]

Googling scar sizes:

An appendix removal scar is typically 3"-5"
C-section scars are usually 4"-6" but in the 70s and early 80s they were longer at 6"-8"
A tummy tuck scar is a "smile" shape and spans hip to hip (hip bones), so the length can vary depending on hip width, but the average scar is 15"-20"
There is a procedure called a mini-tuck, or "C-section scar revision" and the size of the new scar can depend on the length of the original scar, but is still quite a large at 8"-12"

It is frustrating that some medical info isn't made available to the public when it could help identify the victim. Why not show location of the scar or state the surgical procedure? I can't see how revealing that information could jeopardize the integrity of a criminal case if someone is ever charged.

 

[Charlie99909]

Date Found: February 24, 1982
Washoe County Coroner Case #0145-82
Newborn, white, infant female, found at Flash Dam, Truckee River, Sierra County, California.
Cause of Death: Undetermined/Homicide
Agency: Sierra County Sheriff

This is the infant in question. Rindicella pointed this one out to us a few months back.

 

[carbuff]

Those are some high waisted jeans. Ok then, now we see exactly where the jeans came on her body.

Who thinks she gave birth in the last year? I think it is a good possibility.

I dunno. Quite a bit of evidence seems to point that direction, so I'd agree it's a good possibility.

 

[Charlie99909]

I wonder if it was a home birth or a hospital birth. To stay under the radar if she indeed had given birth, she would most likely have had it at home.

 

[carbuff]

I wonder if it was a home birth or a hospital birth. To stay under the radar if she indeed had given birth, she would most likely have had it at home.

What makes you say that? In those days, once you left the hospital, that was the last anybody paid attention to you and the baby.

And if that's a c-section scar, it was certainly done in a hospital somewhere.

 

[Charlie99909]

Ah where's my brain!? Of course the c section scar.

 

[tamar]

there is one thing I vaguely recall about Keds (popular in the 80s) I remember a shoe salesman selling my mom a pair of leather keds and he told her to by a size smaller because the leather was "as soft as dance shoes".
Dance shoes (ballet, jazz, ballroom) are typically purchased in a size down from your regualr size. I don't remember if she actually listened to him. I'll have to give her a call...

However, I do remember the canvas Keds shrinking after you washed them.

 

[Charlie99909]

She had fairly new canvas keds. They weren't out of the box new. But they were fairly new.

Also her bruised toe wasn't cause by shoes that were too small. It was like she stunned the toe.

 

[Charlie99909]

Did any couples go missing at that time in 1982?

 

[carbuff]

Did any couples go missing at that time in 1982?

While looking for couples who went missing in 1982, I found Marcia Arlen Medler Fischer, who was just added to NAMPN last month: http://www.nampn.org/cases/fischer_marcia.html

Not a lot of detail about her; the missing persons report seems to have been given by somebody who didn't know her well at all. No height, no weight, and a vague memory of a scar. But facially she looks close.

I will keep looking for couples later...I'm pretty sure there's at least one.