NY NY - Chaim Weiss, 15, Long Beach, 1 Nov 1986

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Check out this link: http://psychautopsy.weebly.com/organized-vs-disorganized.html

The killing is a mix of organized and disorganized.

He takes care not to leave fingerprints, semen, or spent cartridges and shells. They make an effort to erase all prints and other potential evidence. Sometimes these perpetrators will scrub the victim down with bleach, along with the bathroom and kitchen, to destroy any trace he may have left. Some have been known to go to the extreme of removing all of their body hair and mutilating the tips of their fingers to avoid mishaps or carelessness at the scene. Weapons are brought to the scene by the perpetrator and leave the scene with him. He will have a "kit" consisting of various items like tape, chains, ropes, or chemicals. Restraints reflect a methodical approach, providing order for the perpetrator prior to, during, and after the crime. The scene will appear controlled and planned out. All finger- and footprints will be removed. Regardless of the ridiculous notions spouted off on television or in movies, these predators DO NOT want to be caught. EVER. They put so much effort into assuring they will outsmart the police because they all want to follow in the footsteps of Zodiac and Saucy Jack.

Yet, from the disorganized file:

The scenes will be random and sloppy. Either the location or the victim will be known to him and either or both are part of his normal routine. His attacks are perpetrated blitz-style. They are sudden and wildly violent. This scene will also exhibit signs of depersonalization such as the victim's face being covered with a pillow or clothing. He uses weapons of opportunity and makes no effort to conceal the body or the victim's identity.



And a mixed homicide:

This type of murder may occur when there are multiple offenders involved. The attack may begin as an orderly operation and then unforeseen factors cause the situation to deteriorate. This may also be a crime that begins as rape, but resistance by the victim or the perpetrator's emotional state may provoke escalation to murder. The youth or inebriation of the offender may contribute to a presentation of mixed indicators. External stressors can also cause deterioration from an organized pattern to a disorganized one. This is what happened with Ted Bundy in Florida.



Doesn't really fit into any of these. Maybe "External stressors can also cause deterioration from an organized pattern to a disorganized one."
 
Thank you eman n77
1266yyb.jpg
- I hope it works - this is what the yeshiva dorm looked like then.

Exactly as it does now. Thank you for this!

Also mentions some interesting things. Chaim was studying in his room, not in the hallway according to the article. Investigation was focusing on teenagers who egged the students earlier (although the overall crime does not seem like a group of teenagers).

The fire escape led to the third floor. Although not directly to Chaim's room.
 
Poor kids,working hard studying and minding their own business, only to be egged
and then to find a popular student brutally murdered, then live under the shadow of suspicion for years.imo.
 
I see now why they were thinking perhaps someone with a hatred of Jewish people.

The elderly people who were murdered were also Jewish. I would not be too surprised if it was known around the neighborhood they were Jewish. Then we have a murder at the school...

But, the murderer might have concealed his dislike of Jewish people so that no one knew.

Also, with the Halloween night on Friday this meant the Sabbath would begin at sundown, so the murderer would guess the students were inside the dorm observing the Sabbath.

It sounds like Chaim studied for a while, then sometime after 1 a.m., he put the Talmud aside and went to sleep.
 
i see a ledge on the third floor. if a student opened those windows there, could he sit on the ledge? (or part in the room and partly on the ledge?) i wonder if those are windows to rooms or the hallway?
 
with this neighborhood being so residential, i think as long as the murderer got free of the school then he would have few problems getting away. anyone who saw him would be on their way into their own home, thus they would probably only see him for a distance. if he looked and acted half normal, they might not even notice him. though i think it is more likely they did not see him at all.
 
Thanks for joining in. The more attention this gets, the more new ideas we can introduce.

There was no "message" or signature left behind. The killer's M/O was kill this kid and get the hell out of there. Perhaps his signature is killing Jewish people.

This was both an organized and disorganized murder. Organized because minimal evidence was left at the crime scene and outside. Disorganized because the murder itself was a bloody mess. Interesting contrast. Sounds like someone who thought it through well then went crazy during the actual killing.

Interesting notes on the meticulousness. The killers entrance and escape does seem meticulous. How can someone that careful not to leave evidence, possibly "wing it" and find the backdoor unlocked, walk up to a random floor and start checking random rooms.

Being from the school does not have to be the answer. Perhaps he planned this out a previous night? Perhaps while the kids were out of school? I also believe moving the body was due to double checking nothing was left behind. Sign of somebody who DOES NOT want to get caught. Somebody calculating and not out of his mind. Well-balanced and perhaps intelligent.

Lots of possibilities. Maybe a Jew who hates his own people? Maybe a non-Jew who hates Jews. Maybe someone who specifically hates Chaim.

Here's the thing that rules out the "get back at his father" theories for me. That would mean this was a professional murder. A "hit". Those are THE most organized murders. They would kill Chaim as quickly and quietly as possible. There would not be blood all over the room and a dozen stab wounds. I think it's pretty obvious that the location, force, and quantity of the wounds show that this was someone who had a VERY strong emotional reaction while killing Chaim. One that hitmen just don't have.

Plus a hitman would not be too fond of killing a kid, much less make a total mess. Unless the guy who had a problem with the father did this directly.

Lots of ideas. I was both answering your post and thinking out loud. I still think the elderly murders are worth pursuing. But we are learning a lot about our killer.

It's that mix that just doesn't do it for me, to be honest. To me it rules out this being a dispassionate, emotionless crime for the perp - such as a more 'classic' hitman style. It also rules out it being a spur of the moment thing driven by pure anger. IMO it leaves three scenarios: some kind of personal revenge, a hitman of sorts (I'll explain in more detail below), or someone who had a deep-rooted hatred of Jewish people and instead of lashing out in typical hate crime style, was more meticulous about it.

The first is one I can't quite imagine since it sounds like everyone liked Chaim and those who didn't love him don't seem to have hated him enough, especially not among adults, unless he saw or knew something he shouldn't.

The 'hitman of sorts' is basically different from the typical hitman as you point out. The reason why I'm saying this is, what if whoever did it made the scene look messy on purpose? What if they had a message to Chaim's father or someone and they knew that person would know what it mean? Going so over-the-top could mean they were trying to divert attention from the real motives as the person it was intended for would have understood, maybe just masking it in general, or just as a way to create additional pain for the recipient of the 'message'.

The third option is what I've said before, someone whose hatred was closer to them than it is for your average anti-semite, someone who had a personal problem or psychiatric delusions regarding Jewish people for reasons that weren't necessarily political. The killer here sounds like a lot of serial killers, who are very careful and meticulous with their approach but from the way the crime scenes look you can tell there was also an element of hatred and taking it out on the victim. Someone like this would be the type to keep an eye on the school.

The lack of signature or message is interesting to me, I feel like if this was done for political reasons such as a 'get out' warning that warning would be there without leaving any room for doubt.

I don't understand what you mean when you say it could have been planned while the kids were out, could you elaborate? I feel like an outsider would probably not know by heart the set up of the rooms, which IMO could explain the peeking around the other rooms.

Thank you for taking the time to reply to me! I really like the points you bring up.

I see now why they were thinking perhaps someone with a hatred of Jewish people.

The elderly people who were murdered was also Jewish. I would not be too surprised if it was known around the neighborhood they were Jewish. Then we have a murder at the school...

But, the murderer might have concealed his dislike of Jewish people so that no one knew.

Also, with the Halloween night on Friday this meant the Sabbath would begin at sundown, so the murderer would guess the students were inside the dorm observing the Sabbath.

It sounds like Chaim studied for a while, then sometime after 1 a.m., he put the Talmud aside and went to sleep.

BBM. Do you have a source for this? I'm not snarking by the way, I'm genuinely curious to try to investigate more about what happened.
 
Maybe this amateur sleuth who helped track down little Leiby Kletzky might have some ideas in this case.
Any chance the murderer (or any he might be close to) is the same one who killed Chaim?



"Amateur sleuth Yaakov German helps cops catch Levi Aron and solve murder of Leiby Kletzky
By Barry Paddock / DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Friday, July 15, 2011, 4:00 AM"

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...-leiby-kletzky-article-1.158850#ixzz2jLNyYgMY
 
Video shows the dorm we linked to earlier. Longbeachcuse was right on.

Interesting note I hadn't heard before. Law enforcement says they have a hair from the crime scene. So once we find a suspect, we can test for DNA. That's why they want to "speak with everybody".

I wonder if the DNA from the hair might match someone already tested,already in the system ? jmo moo

LE stated that they gave polys to everyone there that night, and apparently everyone passed.

I wonder if LE lifted any clear prints from the window sill area ?
 
It's that mix that just doesn't do it for me, to be honest. To me it rules out this being a dispassionate, emotionless crime for the perp - such as a more 'classic' hitman style. It also rules out it being a spur of the moment thing driven by pure anger. IMO it leaves three scenarios: some kind of personal revenge, a hitman of sorts (I'll explain in more detail below), or someone who had a deep-rooted hatred of Jewish people and instead of lashing out in typical hate crime style, was more meticulous about it.

The first is one I can't quite imagine since it sounds like everyone liked Chaim and those who didn't love him don't seem to have hated him enough, especially not among adults, unless he saw or knew something he shouldn't.

The 'hitman of sorts' is basically different from the typical hitman as you point out. The reason why I'm saying this is, what if whoever did it made the scene look messy on purpose? What if they had a message to Chaim's father or someone and they knew that person would know what it mean? Going so over-the-top could mean they were trying to divert attention from the real motives as the person it was intended for would have understood, maybe just masking it in general, or just as a way to create additional pain for the recipient of the 'message'.

The third option is what I've said before, someone whose hatred was closer to them than it is for your average anti-semite, someone who had a personal problem or psychiatric delusions regarding Jewish people for reasons that weren't necessarily political. The killer here sounds like a lot of serial killers, who are very careful and meticulous with their approach but from the way the crime scenes look you can tell there was also an element of hatred and taking it out on the victim. Someone like this would be the type to keep an eye on the school.

The lack of signature or message is interesting to me, I feel like if this was done for political reasons such as a 'get out' warning that warning would be there without leaving any room for doubt.

I don't understand what you mean when you say it could have been planned while the kids were out, could you elaborate? I feel like an outsider would probably not know by heart the set up of the rooms, which IMO could explain the peeking around the other rooms.

Thank you for taking the time to reply to me! I really like the points you bring up.



BBM. Do you have a source for this? I'm not snarking by the way, I'm genuinely curious to try to investigate more about what happened.


I have never heard that the other two murder victims were Jewish. jmo moo
 
veidt, it is in this thread about the elderly couple being Jewish. I have to switch from phone to computer. I will get you a link as soon as I finish that up.
 
Wondering if the perp has totally put this out of his mind, or if every Halloween he is reminded of the grisly murder and feels remorse, or perhaps powerful, for going undetected this far?
Wonder if any one odd hangs around the school, or Chaim's grave on this anniversary?
Do the students stay at the school all the time, are they allowed outside?
Could Chaim and the elderly couple both have used the same taxi service, shopped at the same stores?




BBM, I wonder if both elderly victims used a repair person, and the Yeshiva used the same person ? Wonder if it had to be someone who knew the inside of that Yeshiva well.... I mean a repair person who was somewhat specialized...like,say, a furnace repair person, a plumber,or plumber's helper, an electrician, etc etc Someone from the outside,yet someone who had been in all 3 residences ? jmo moo
 
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/05/chaim-weiss-murder-reward-for-info.html

This link is about the Jewish community seeking help from the Jewish community to solve Chaim's murder.

Someone wrote in that they know something and the rabbi has written saying to please tell the police and the person did.

Many terms are used I do not understand. There may be someone here who can understand this better than I. However, it is an interesting article.

Someone in comments outright says this murdering of Chaim is a Russian mob hit. Honestly, I have read those are sometimes very nasty.

There are a few things that point to a professional to me:

It has been reported Chaim was killed by the first blow. The rest, horrible as they were, were done after he had died. Thus, it was to create a horrible scene more than to torture Chaim. (I am sorry to write such bad things.)

There was no or very little forensic evidence at the crime scene.

The murder is unsolved.
 
After the killing, about 25 detectives worked full-time for months, Edwards said. The police mobile command sat outside the yeshiva for more than a week, open to anyone who wanted to talk. The FBI developed a profile of the killer and Chaim, and the crime was featured on the "Unsolved Mysteries" television program.
Even years afterward, police spread out on Halloween in Long Beach to ask people if they remembered anything.

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/...en-1986-slaying-case-of-chaim-weiss-1.5340909

Interesting... tonight there may be police asking people if they remember anything from Halloween 1986.
 
I went back through the thread. I can't even find anything on the elderly people. Therefore, just ignore my comment.

BTW, I didn't mean that Chaim (being in a dorm full of Orthodox Jewish students) would be the random Jewish murder.. I meant the elderly people who would be in a regular house (probably) would be random. As in it just so happened they were also Jewish.

But, I can't find where i read that, so I might be mistaken about them.

Also, I hadn't read the initial report.... it is pretty hard to guess why this murder was committed.

The angle that it was someone who hated Jewish people only works to a certain degree... maybe it is such a person, but IDK...

It could be someone who wanted to kill a student of the school...

The lock being broken is important, I think.

What if someone told the murderer some details of the dorm? (Not knowing the murderer would use them in such a way). So, the murderer knew there was a boy on the third floor with his own room, but the murderer (or the informer) didn't know the exact room?

Another factor is the moon being so dim that night. It would be a dark night.

Looking at the neighborhood, I do not think the street lights would make a lot of difference. They would light people to their cars or houses, but it wouldn't be a lot of light. The calendar would tell the murderer this.
 
It's good to see the activity here on Chaim's thread.
If his family comes here - please know we are praying for you.

If someone who knows something comes here....please call the police anonymously. Do the right thing. It's time.
 

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