NY NY - Chaim Weiss, 15, Long Beach, 1 Nov 1986

[Stella]

I also wondered about holes/irregularities in the building and if there were any crawlspaces or things of that nature. I would think that if someone in town came across a bloody hatchet or bloody clothing after knowing that there had been a murder that they would contact the authorities. Also, real blood has a smell that imitation Halloween blood does not have, so even on Halloween night it might be noticeable.

Maybe it is just me, but honestly, I have a bit of a problem with the theory that the person who murdered young Mr. Weiss because they didn't like Jewish people. They are putting themselves at a lot of risk to sneak into a building full of people, commit murder and leave the building without getting caught. I would imagine if someone was looking to murder someone just because they were a particular type of person, they would target someone living in a much less crowded dwelling. I think there must have been something about Mr. Weiss specifically that made the murderer angry (whether it was something real or something imagined).

I agree; seems to me if the killer was anti-Semitic, he would've killed more than one student. This case just feels personal; someone out to get Chaim and Chaim alone.

 

[December]

Veidt, I don't think Chaim would've slipped in his room number along with his food order.. I was mostly just saying I don't think they were totally isolated at the school. Although, I imagine if they ever left, it was either with their parents or under the supervision of a person from the school.

Although it is not impossible that Chaim became friends with someone even during brief encounters and shared a little bit of information with that person. Because he was at school, his visits might have followed a pattern. So, if someone was stalking him or his classmates, that person would have been able to figure out some information over time by listening to the boys talking among themselves.

I also don't think the egging is a harmless prank necessarily. But, the person egging may have hit everyone in the neighborhood they didn't like that much (for whatever reason). One year a lot of people in my town got egged. Boy! People were unhappy about that and i am glad that doesn't happen too much anymore. The eggers that did it to us (and lots of others) used rotten eggs. So gross.

 

[Veidt]

I agree; seems to me if the killer was anti-Semitic, he would've killed more than one student. This case just feels personal; someone out to get Chaim and Chaim alone.

I don't know, killing more than one student would have attracted a lot of attention especially since everyone, except Chaim and another boy, shared their rooms. So if it was one person doing it, or even more than one person but just being inexperienced or trying to be careful, they may have found it easier to kill Chaim than try to go into a room with two students and kill one while keeping the other from waking up and screaming, fighting, escaping, etc.

If it was a hate crime the killer may have chosen to kill just one of the boys to prove a point.

Though I'm inclined to agree it wasn't a hate crime, unless as I said it was more of someone with an obsessive hatred and mentally unstable who acted on a compulsion. A hate crime to send a message to the school would probably have included messages left at the crime scene or sent to the school/police later. :twocents:

Veidt, I don't think Chaim would've slipped in his room number along with his food order.. I was mostly just saying I don't think they were totally isolated at the school. Although, I imagine if they ever left, it was either with their parents or under the supervision of a person from the school.

Although it is not impossible that Chaim became friends with someone even during brief encounters and shared a little bit of information with that person. Because he was at school, his visits might have followed a pattern. So, if someone was stalking him or his classmates, that person would have been able to figure out some information over time by listening to the boys talking among themselves.

I also don't think the egging is a harmless prank necessarily. But, the person egging may have hit everyone in the neighborhood they didn't like that much (for whatever reason). One year a lot of people in my town got egged. Boy! People were unhappy about that and i am glad that doesn't happen too much anymore. The eggers that did it to us (and lots of others) used rotten eggs. So gross.

I agree, it could have been someone who struck up a casual friendship with Chaim and/or his friends around town. I assume they would have had supervision and wouldn't have stayed behind to chat with a stranger but if they always went to the same place for example, then someone who worked there would recognize them and probably make small time where it could have come up. Same if someone was stalking the boys or even just overheard a conversation and heard about Chaim getting his own room, etc.

I don't think they left the school much however. I'm trying to find out what the school's rules could have been. I haven't found any info about that specific school at that specific time though I've found various websites of people talking about their experiences or talking about sending their kids to a Yeshiva boarding school. Most of what I've found tends to imply kids spend most of their time at the school.

I think it would have been like a strict boarding school, kids would probably have on-campus activities for their spare time, like maybe a common room where they could play games and talk, events, a library, sports areas, etc. I don't really think school officials would have seen much of a point of taking students off-campus in that case, especially since taking a whole group would be harder to manage no matter how well-behaved and I assume they'd need to clear that with their parents.

So I can see them leaving campus with teachers for the occasional school trip but not enough to be a regular at any shop or restaurant to the point of info about Chaim having his own room coming up in chit chat. :twocents:

And yes I agree with the egging it could go either way.

 

[Veidt]

Sorry for the double post - just trying to keep things neat - but I found this link on a Jewish news website, about the case: http://www.jta.org/1986/11/04/archive/1000-people-attend-funeral-of-murdered-yeshiva-student.

The whole article is quite detailed and interesting, I'm still reading because I'm multitasking but so far something has stood out to me.

From http://www.jta.org/1986/11/04/archive/1000-people-attend-funeral-of-murdered-yeshiva-student:

People in the community and faculty members were hesitant to describe the murder as an anti-Semitic act. Both Lesin and Zelikovitz said there had been no serious anti-Semitic activity in the neighborhood, a New York suburb heavily populated by religious Jews.
Lesin said there had been some graffiti on another dormitory some years ago, but juvenile-type slogans. "We don’t have any problems with our neighbors or any anti-Semitism," Lesin told the Jewish Telegraphic Agency. He said there had been no fights within the dormitory.

I think this answers our questions about what the neighborhood was like, it seems like it was an area with many Jewish people already and that they hadn't previously experienced any incidents and didn't feel the graffiti incident to be threatening.

Still doesn't explain then why the police had the duty of guarding the dorms and their absence was so noted students pointed out the assigned police weren't there yet... but maybe it was just to prevent general trouble like vandalism or noise under the dorm windows.

 

[Ausgirl]

Still doesn't explain then why the police had the duty of guarding the dorms and their absence was so noted students pointed out the assigned police weren't there yet... but maybe it was just to prevent general trouble like vandalism or noise under the dorm windows.

eta: oops, I see you meant -prior- to the murder. Yup, then, I agree it was probably to keep the school from being TP'd and egged and other silliness. Unless they knew something we don't. Also, IIRC there'd been a recent murder in the area prior to Chaim's, but not sure that would have been a factor, really, as the victim in the other was elderly, unless I am misremembering it.

Just a quick thanks, also, folks, for some really thoughtful and interesting posts.

 

[dotr]

OT, Hope no one minds, but wanted to post this recent good news item concerning a Yeshiva trained Rabbi..

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Rabbi+...nd+used+desk+bought+online/9156244/story.html

 

[Veidt]

eta: oops, I see you meant -prior- to the murder. Yup, then, I agree it was probably to keep the school from being TP'd and egged and other silliness. Unless they knew something we don't. Also, IIRC there'd been a recent murder in the area prior to Chaim's, but not sure that would have been a factor, really, as the victim in the other was elderly, unless I am misremembering it.

Just a quick thanks, also, folks, for some really thoughtful and interesting posts.

I think you're remembering correctly, IIRC the victims in the other murders in the area were elderly or at least much older than Chaim. IIRC this is one of the reasons why it was wondered by the LE or school authorities, can't really remember, if the cases were connected at all because the age range and setting (a school vs. a private house) were so different.

Your post made me think of something, how aware were people in the area of the murders that took place? I remember reading somewhere that Chaim's father only found out after Chaim was killed and said something about how he wouldn't have sent Chaim to the school if he'd known.

• I wonder if the murders were known to the students and also the staff. This could explain why they were wondering about the police's absence on Halloween night (though it could obviously be something more innocuous they were concerned about like I said before, like drunk people making noise outside or breaking stuff). I don't think that a student or teacher did it but if that was the case, then maybe the perp was hoping a suspect in other cases would be linked to thise one as well.
• I'd also like to know if they were known to the local community in general. Again, the real perp could have hoped to make the cases seem connected. Going to a school to commit a crime on a night when there's a strong chance there will be LE on duty, could maybe be explained by the perp not knowing about the other murders or even about the previous incidents with egging and graffiti at the school, and thinking the coast would be clear... then sadly turning out to be right.

I hope this post isn't too nonsensical as I'm very tired.

 

[LongBeachGuy]

Hi all,

I attended this school although not in the years that Chaim Weiss was there.
To respond to a few things mentioned earlier:
This was just a dorm. The temple or 'Beis Medrash' (study hall) is a 10 minute walk away and the boys walk back and forth at least once or twice a day. They are visible throughout the community, everyone knows that they exist and sees them walking back and forth.
There are many Jews in the community and virtually no anti semitism was ever noticed aside from occasional (Halloween) egging etc.
Here are some details of the dorm:

There is only one main entrance that led upstairs, the side entrance leads downstairs where the Polish workers live, and then there is the fire escape that leads just across the hall from Chaims room. The ledge up there in the front simply has 2 windows to 2 different rooms. I never saw any students crazy enough to sit out on the ledge and it's anyway nowhere near Chaims Room. For all of those suggesting that someone saw him through the window, it is on a 3rd floor so unless someone is standing by the window, no one on the ground would be able to see all of the way into the room to see him going to lie down in bed.
The pictures linked to earlier depicting a person sleeping in bed and a person sitting outside of a dorm room, and a window - were NOT (I repeat NOT) taken in this dorm. They must have been taken somewhere else just for emphasis.

 

[TroyinTX]

Thank you for that LongBeachGuy.

Again, I mentioned this before, the dorm building does not look at that big at all. I do find it surprising that nobody heard anything that night.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Thank you for that LongBeachGuy.

Again, I mentioned this before, the dorm building does not look at that big at all. I do find it surprising that nobody heard anything that night.

What an odd looking building compared to the surroundings.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Thank you for that LongBeachGuy.

Again, I mentioned this before, the dorm building does not look at that big at all. I do find it surprising that nobody heard anything that night.

And I agree. I no longer believe no one heard anything. This can not be a random act.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Chaim, you are not forgotten. Prayers for answers.

 

[dotr]

Hoping this is the year that Chaim's family gets answers about the inexplicable murder of their beloved son.

 

[Veidt]

Hi all,
Here are some details of the dorm:

Snipped respectfully by me.

Thank you so much for this, LongBeachGuy!!! I hope you stay around WS and keep contributing to this thread as there have been a lot of questions about the school's routine and layout.

So, to get this straight, from what I understand the fire escape is the one that has been described in other reports as the door with the broken lock (the door with the broken lock has been described as leading right up to Chaim's floor)? Was there anything like a door or locks on the fire escape? Did it lead up to a door or just to a room's windows?

It's weird that IIRC that door was also said to lead to an area next to Chaim's room (unless I'm remembering it wrong). BUT I believe in what you're saying, to me it makes more sense that the stairs that led from outside to Chaim's floor led to the opposite end of the floor - that makes more sense in a scenario where the murderer checked other rooms. If the stairs led to a door next to Chaim's room, it seems odd that the murderer would check any rooms that weren't as close to it.

You have a good point about visibility into Chaim's room. If his room wasn't very clearly visible to someone outside, it seems weird that a stranger would see maybe what, a blur of someone walking around and a light, and assume it's a kid hanging out alone... not an adult, two adults, two kids or more, etc. IMO this makes it less likely that it was a stranger.

Also, I'm wondering about the shorter building in front of Chaim's window. What is it? Was it there in 1986?

I'm asking this because I wonder if someone standing on that roof could have had a clearer view into Chaim's window. I also wonder if someone standing on the ground could look up at the roof very clearly or not, because if not, it seems like it could have been used to hide or keep the murder weapon on? Just a thought.

I know there's been some talk that maybe the murderer went back and tossed the murder weapon out of the window and how to fit that in, maybe that smaller building is the key to that.

As usual, :twocents:, :moo:, etc.

Hoping this is the year that Chaim's family gets answers about the inexplicable murder of their beloved son.

Agreed. It's been much too long.

 

[dotr]

The small building beside the school, a garage perhaps, looks like the kind of spot kids, teenagers might climb to get a look inside.. also perhaps provide cover and accessibility to anyone who might sneak in or out of the building.

 

[Veidt]

The small building beside the school, a garage perhaps, looks like the kind of spot kids, teenagers might climb to get a look inside.. also perhaps provide cover and accessibility to anyone who might sneak in or out of the building.

I'm not sure if it would make it easier to sneak into the building as there seems to be quite a gap between the lower buildings and the dorm... I feel like the only way would be to jump onto the thing over the door if it's not made of a flimsy material and maybe climb onto the window nearby (slightly above, then to the side) if there's lots of spots to get a grip on and depending on the distance. That seems a bit unlikely.

But I agree completely that it would provide someone a good look-out point and maybe somewhere to hide or wait while sneaking around.

If you look closely you'll also notice the lower building in the front (the one right behind the car) seems to be connected or very close to another low but slightly higher building.

I think that perhaps from one of them it would be possible to get a better view into Chaim's room than from the ground, even if it wasn't perfect (although I don't think the murderer was a random person who was bored and just happened to see Chaim).

I also wonder if there are any other relatively low buildings connected to the one we see in the picture, like other garages or sheds. Could someone on that low roof get onto the roof of a series of other low buildings until they were far away enough to get down on the ground and run away?

If these buildings were there in 1986, I'd also be interested in knowing what they were used for. Did someone live or sleep there? Would there be anyone in there at night, and so on. If it was empty (of people) I can see how it would be easy for someone to sneak around on it without being heard from someone inside the garage.

I also wonder if there was enough light for anyone (inside the dorm or on the street) to spot someone on that roof at night.

 

[liz b.]

I think you're remembering correctly, IIRC the victims in the other murders in the area were elderly or at least much older than Chaim. IIRC this is one of the reasons why it was wondered by the LE or school authorities, can't really remember, if the cases were connected at all because the age range and setting (a school vs. a private house) were so different.

Your post made me think of something, how aware were people in the area of the murders that took place? I remember reading somewhere that Chaim's father only found out after Chaim was killed and said something about how he wouldn't have sent Chaim to the school if he'd known.

• I wonder if the murders were known to the students and also the staff. This could explain why they were wondering about the police's absence on Halloween night (though it could obviously be something more innocuous they were concerned about like I said before, like drunk people making noise outside or breaking stuff). I don't think that a student or teacher did it but if that was the case, then maybe the perp was hoping a suspect in other cases would be linked to thise one as well.
• I'd also like to know if they were known to the local community in general. Again, the real perp could have hoped to make the cases seem connected. Going to a school to commit a crime on a night when there's a strong chance there will be LE on duty, could maybe be explained by the perp not knowing about the other murders or even about the previous incidents with egging and graffiti at the school, and thinking the coast would be clear... then sadly turning out to be right.

I hope this post isn't too nonsensical as I'm very tired.

Anton Weiss,Chaim's father, had said that if he had known about the other two murders in the community,he would never have sent his son to the Yeshiva.

What was remarkable about the three murders was that the Medical Examiner stated that the head wounds in Chaims' murder and in one of the eldery people's murder were identical. That is what was so significant. jmo moo

 

[rosesfromangels]

Then every aspect of these elderly people's lives and Chaim's must be examined for points of intersection. There is a connection somewhere...

 

[Veidt]

Anton Weiss,Chaim's father, had said that if he had known about the other two murders in the community,he would never have sent his son to the Yeshiva.

What was remarkable about the three murders was that the Medical Examiner stated that the head wounds in Chaims' murder and in one of the eldery people's murder were identical. That is what was so significant. jmo moo

Thank you but, do you have a source for the second thing? I'm not saying you're making it up but I'd like to read more about it.

Then every aspect of these elderly people's lives and Chaim's must be examined for points of intersection. There is a connection somewhere...

I agree. I think there's a chance of a copycat but it seems more likely that if there were similarities between the crimes that the perp was the same. I think it's too lazy to dismiss the idea of them being linked just because the other murders took place in private residences and the victims were much older than Chaim. Sometimes there's no pattern other than location, sometimes there are patterns that aren't so obvious and IMO they should be looked into.

I wonder if LE ever discussed that possibility, I'd be interested in knowing what they said.

Do we know who the victims of the murders that happened around that time were?

 

[dotr]

Finding news links concerning the elderly couple is difficult, but if verified that the injuries they received were similar to Chaim's, then finding their killer might well lead to the murderer in this case too.imo.
In terms of victims, imo a sleeping ( or not) elderly couple and an unwell teenager all resting in presumably darkened rooms at night time, are equally vulnerable/ desirable victims.