NY NY - Chaim Weiss, 15, Long Beach, 1 Nov 1986

[eman77]

First I must apologize if the following points have already been covered, I haven't read every posts in this case, etc.

Have we ever seen a floor plan of the dorm, how far was the closest staircase, how far was the room which might have been looked into ?

Had Chaim recently reported anyone to the school authorities, i.e. sexual abuse, stealing, grades etc.

Was there a trail of blood leading out of the room ? Was there a washroom in this room for the killer to clean himself ? Were finger prints discovered in the room? Was any employees on the premises during the murder time frame ?

I wish we had a floor plan to look at. The closest thing we have is a Google Map of the dorm that was linked to. http://goo.gl/maps/StzfC
You can move right or left down the street to see different angles.

I haven't heard anything about Chaim reporting anything prior.

Never heard anything about blood outside of the room. This brings up a great point. If the murder was as bloody and messy as everyone says, how did the killer manage to not get a drop outside the room? No fingerprints mean he wore gloves, which means it was definitely pre-meditative (rules out a robbery gone wrong).

Here's a theory I haven't heard suggested. Maybe after the initial violent frenzy, the killer heard noise outside the room (half asleep students rolling over from the noise). The killer got scared and very silently sat in the room until he was 100% sure everyone was asleep. In the meantime he could've opened the window to let cold air in (since he was probably a sweaty mess). This would also explain how Chaim's body was moved approximately 45 minutes after he died. This rules out the idea that the killer sneaked in a second time. All this time allowed the blood to dry onto his clothing, so when he sneaked out it did not drip anywhere.

 

[dotr]

Halloween costume, now that is interesting- just throw on a sheet and you have a disguise, maybe that was the reason for "choosing" this time to kill?
Wonder if there was any room under the bed, or a cupboard to hide until things settled down?

 

[eman77]

October 31, 1986 is the 304th day of the year 1986 in the Gregorian calendar. There are 61 days remaining until the end of this year. The day of the week is Friday.
http://www.dayoftheweek.org/?m=October&d=31&y=1986&go=Go

So, we have a Friday night Halloween and a Saturday morning November 1st (which, as I understand it, Chaim was discovered November 1st.. very early, still dark.. is this correct?)

We need a general idea what the heck Chaim's dorm might have looked like.. was there another way to get out of Chaim's room besides the brightly lit hallway? If so, then the murderer may have used that. If he was forced to go out via the hallway then we need to know about the hallway. Was the hallway floor tile or carpet, light or dark floor? If the floor was dark then the murderer might have been able to go down it and even if some blood dripped, it would not be as easy to notice. Once he got outside, someone might mistake his appearance for a Halloween costume. Especially since he does not seem to have been noticed near the dorm. Were there trees or bushes or anything else around the dorm that a murderer might use to conceal himself?

I feel like we would have heard about blood being found outside the room. Also, from what I understand they shut down that section of the dorm for a while after the murder. I'm sure they scoured every inch for any sort of drop of blood.

How the killer got out of there without spilling a drop of blood outside the dorm room is one of the mysteries of this case. My theory is that he stayed in the room long enough that the blood indirectly dried up, thus no longer dripping anywhere.

Also, the neighborhood.. were there many Jewish people (as in percentagewise)? Was it likely if someone came into the neighborhood and committed a murder that the victim would be Jewish?

If so, then this could explain a person who hated Jewish people. He would not need to know very much about any particular victim, he would be able to find a victim easily just by going to the neighborhood. I still say if it is such a person, then nothing in Chaim's room relates to a death ritual other than the candle that was placed by a rabbi after Chaim was discovered. Such a person would know very little about any particular Jewish belief or custom. And if he did know, would disregard it. (Moo)

I don't know if there is such thing as targeting a random house in an entire neighborhood to commit a hate crime. What if the person you kill isn't Jewish? Wouldn't the doubt sort of ruin it for someone looking for that emotional release?

If you look at the Google Map you'll notice that this isn't just a "random house in the neighborhood". It looks different and is taller than the other houses. I feel like that specific building was targeted. My opinion is that the student who was killed was random, and was targeted solely because he slept alone.

If another student, he did not necessarily have to be from that dorm. He could be from another dorm and just know the code to get into Chaim's dorm. it was said in the article that Chaim had a sharp tongue sometimes, maybe someone got overly upset over something he said. If there were students there getting molested, then some students would be really on edge from the stress from it. What if nothing was happening to Chaim and he knew nothing? It would be easy to make a remark that meant nothing particularly bad to him, but to a kid who was traumatized it might sound like Chaim was being cruel. (Not blaming Chaim here, but the evil child molester that some articles say was present at this school during this time period.) MOOO/speculation

This bring us back to how secure was Chaim's dorm? Was the code known by people who did not live in it? Students in other dorms? Alumni? Could a person watching have learned the code by watching students going into the dorm? (This would be stranger murderer lurking around somewhere if there was such a place he could lurk.)

Here's my thoughts on this. If one of those kids was a ticking time bomb and went ahead and committed this murder and got away with it, I'd imagine that kid grew into someone who has quite the arrest record. Do we have anyone like that?

Also, if this was someone from inside the dorm that did this: where did they put their bloody clothes? Take a knife and start stabbing a watermelon as hard as you can, let me know if anything at least gets on your sleeve.

Thus, I'll make the assumption that the dorms of the other students were searched and their clothes checked. Meaning the student would need to leave the building, probably walk a couple streets down to the boardwalk, dump the clothes, walk back to the dorm, then sneak back into the dorm room without waking up his roommate. Then deal with police interrogation, lie detectors, and suspicion from students and family for the next 25 years without raising alarm.

Using all those assumptions, I would make the statement that it is FAR easier to simply sneak in, commit the murder, and sneak out, than it would be for the murder to be committed by someone residing in the dorm.

 

[eman77]

Halloween costume, now that is interesting- just throw on a sheet and you have a disguise, maybe that was the reason for "choosing" this time to kill?
Wonder if there was any room under the bed, or a cupboard to hide until things settled down?

It's possible. But it's also night-time, regardless of what time of the year it is. Wearing dark clothes and having dark blood splattered on it is much harder to notice than some guy walking down an empty residential area at night wearing a blood covered sheet.

 

[December]

Halloween costume, now that is interesting- just throw on a sheet and you have a disguise, maybe that was the reason for "choosing" this time to kill?
Wonder if there was any room under the bed, or a cupboard to hide until things settled down?

I was thinking more like this:

Jason (Friday 13th)
http://www.partycity.com/product/ad...riday+the+13th+deluxe.do?page=2&navSet=110766

Michael Myers (Halloween)
http://www.partycity.com/product/ad...ourPicks&size=all&carousel=true&navSet=110766

As you can see, these are simple costumes. I am not saying the person would have to be dressed as these characters. But, except for the mask, their outfits look a lot like regular clothing. Whatever blood the murderer had on him would make people think he was dressed up as some slasher movie villain. The murderer would not need a mask. People might also think he was dressed as a murder victim or a zombie or whatever else.

Blood on his clothing would pretty much provide all of the costume he would need to make anyone who glimpsed him think he was dressed up for Halloween.

You can buy fake gore, btw....WARNING, GROSS
http://www.costumecauldron.com/shop/halloween-costume/Serial-Killer-Costumes-title0-p-1-c-330.html
This page also has more "serial killer" type of costumes and more elaborate versions of the ones shown above.

Basically, if you have real gore and any type of clothing.. you won't need to add anything. So, yes, definitely I believe this is why the murderer chose Halloween night. Also, he might have noticed that there was little moonlight the night before and surmised that Halloween night was going to be a dark night (I don't know the street light situation in that area, however).

specuation and moo

 

[December]

It's possible. But it's also night-time, regardless of what time of the year it is. Wearing dark clothes and having dark blood splattered on it is much harder to notice than some guy walking down an empty residential area at night wearing a blood covered sheet.

I don't think the guy wore a blood covered sheet.

buuuut, if you saw someone with such a thing on a few blocks away from the murderer (which you would not even know about until later) on Halloween night would you think anything of it? Even if you told the police, you wouldn't have much of a description except possibly height.

I think the guy just had regular dark clothes with blood/gore on them. That would be close enough to many serial killer costumes.

moo

 

[eman77]

I don't think the guy wore a blood covered sheet.

buuuut, if you saw someone with such a thing on a few blocks away from the murderer (which you would not even know about until later) on Halloween night would you think anything of it? Even if you told the police, you wouldn't have much of a description except possibly height.

I think the guy just had regular dark clothes with blood/gore on them. That would be close enough to many serial killer costumes.

moo

I mean it's possible. But maybe he had a car nearby and didn't have to worry about it?

Maybe he lived a few blocks away and took a shortcut to get home?

We don't seem to have anybody witnessing anybody in that area around that time. So I guess we can't rule out somebody wearing a costume, but nobody has stepped forward saying they witnessed anything like that, in that area, that night.

As to why Halloween was chosen. Maybe the killer decided to kill someone that weekend and Halloween happened to come on Friday. If Halloween was a Wednesday, then I think that would be more notable. Maybe the killer had a stressor that happened around that time and Halloween happened to be near? I always felt like the significance of Halloween was a red herring. Same with the ritual stuff. Made great TV though.

 

[December]

I mean it's possible. But maybe he had a car nearby and didn't have to worry about it?

Maybe he lived a few blocks away and took a shortcut to get home?

We don't seem to have anybody witnessing anybody in that area around that time. So I guess we can't rule out somebody wearing a costume, but nobody has stepped forward saying they witnessed anything like that, in that area, that night.

As to why Halloween was chosen. Maybe the killer decided to kill someone that weekend and Halloween happened to come on Friday. If Halloween was a Wednesday, then I think that would be more notable. Maybe the killer had a stressor that happened around that time and Halloween happened to be near? I always felt like the significance of Halloween was a red herring. Same with the ritual stuff. Made great TV though.

There were reports of people seeing a boy/young guy across the street dressed as the students. People (from the school) called out to him, but he did not answer or come over. Maybe THAT was his costume. As for blood, maybe he just wore a long coat the night before and threw it away sometime after the murder. Granted, it wasn't found... but the ocean is nearby, so... IDk wild sspeculation

I just wonder about that kid who didn't answer their calls. Was he a student? Alumni? Just someone else?

ETA
They saw him the next morning. In daylight. But not close up. However other people were closer to him so whoever that guy was looked clean (not bloody).

 

[rosesfromangels]

DId the school have a wood furnace/incinerator at that time? Perhaps the bloody clothing was disposed of there?

 

[Frannie]

This is a picture of the yeshiva in the newspaper at the time of the murder. I have never posted a picture before so I don't know if it will show.

It didn't work ! Someone, please be kind enough to let me know how. I have saved it in my picture file.

It looks like a bunker with small windows. One of the window upstairs is open. Its the kind of place where you wouldn't even think of trying the door.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Since this is coming up on the anniversary of Chaim's passing, I want to first express deepest love, condolences, and blessings to his family. I recently saw a newsclip of his dear father asking for someone to step forward to solve this crime. God Bless this man, and his family. They have never given up. Nor should we!

After thinking about this case off and on for months, here are my impressions. The fact this happened on Halloween is not coincidental. This was some sort of a ritual sacrifice. keep thinking "lamb' blood", "first born son", that sort of biblical reference. I believe they knew of Chaim and that he roomed alone. That point alone is probably why he was chosen for this sacrifice. This individual could have been someone of an age who had anti-Semitic reminants left over from the WWII era, or a member of a dark cult. Again, I don't think Halloween was coincidental at all.

Several people have referenced this boy standing across the street who did not respond. I do not think that was coincidental either. Perhaps he was used as a lookout the night before....and like someone who sets a fire and returns to watch it burn.....
I think there is a connection with this boy, one way or another. A non violent participant of some sort. Perhaps with remorse, returning to observe the aftermath.

Perhaps some day that young boy (now grown man) will step forward and do the right thing.

All just speculation and opinion of course.
May God Bless Chaim's soul, and may God Bless his family.

 

[eman77]

This is a picture of the yeshiva in the newspaper at the time of the murder. I have never posted a picture before so I don't know if it will show.

It didn't work ! Someone, please be kind enough to let me know how. I have saved it in my picture file.

It looks like a bunker with small windows. One of the window upstairs is open. Its the kind of place where you wouldn't even think of trying the door.

You can try uploading the picture here: http://tinypic.com/
Then post the link. I'm really interested in seeing it.

 

[eman77]

Here are my hunches so far.

I am about to put a lot of my focus towards learning more about the elderly Jewish murders in the area, that were prior to Chaim's death. From what I know and am currently reading about criminal profiling, these murders are really starting to match up.

Serial killers generally start out with the easiest possible targets, close to home. Elderly are always the easiest targets to rob, burglarize, and murder. A rule of thumb in criminal profiling is that the older the victim, the younger the suspect.

We may be dealing with a younger offender age 18-30 at the time. Killed two elderly people, then "graduated" to a riskier crime. Yet despite Chaim's murder being riskier, he was still a young boy and would be easy to outmuscle. Sort of a "intermediate level" murder.

If this is the case, and since he got away, he would graduate again to riskier murders. Any other Jewish crimes in the area after Chaim?

Again, I'm just thinking out loud. We'll learn more as we dig up info about the previous murders. If we manage to link these murders up (similar M/O or signature), then we will know the killer lives or lived closer to the elderly people since first time offenders like to stay close to their comfort zone.

 

[December]

Here are my hunches so far.

I am about to put a lot of my focus towards learning more about the elderly Jewish murders in the area, that were prior to Chaim's death. From what I know and am currently reading about criminal profiling, these murders are really starting to match up.

Serial killers generally start out with the easiest possible targets, close to home. Elderly are always the easiest targets to rob, burglarize, and murder. A rule of thumb in criminal profiling is that the older the victim, the younger the suspect.

We may be dealing with a younger offender age 18-30 at the time. Killed two elderly people, then "graduated" to a riskier crime. Yet despite Chaim's murder being riskier, he was still a young boy and would be easy to outmuscle. Sort of a "intermediate level" murder.

If this is the case, and since he got away, he would graduate again to riskier murders. Any other Jewish crimes in the area after Chaim?

Again, I'm just thinking out loud. We'll learn more as we dig up info about the previous murders. If we manage to link these murders up (similar M/O or signature), then we will know the killer lives or lived closer to the elderly people since first time offenders like to stay close to their comfort zone.

If this is the murderer's neighborhood maybe the victims being Jewish is coincidential to them living in the neighborhood? Maybe the murderer is Jewish himself.. or maybe he is not.

But, if he is just choosing victims from his neighborhood, then he may or may not know them well. Although, is that school even still there? I am trying to see what it looks like from the outside at least and I am getting real estate ads and other nonsense!

I have been able to see that the neighborhood looks very residential. Did they celebrate Halloween there in the 80s? (As in were there parties?) I think little kids going Trick or Treating would be over by the time the murderer was wandering whether they went door to door or to a party or to the mall... so I am talking about people who would be out later. Not little kids.

 

[Veidt]

I'm still reading through this thread and the thread on another forum which was linked on page 1.

There are so many things that don't seem to fit together.

If this was a hate crime, I'd assume it was the meticulously calculated, personal grudge type. The difference between a guy killing a random woman in a fit of rage or killing women because of a grudge he passes off as political, and a guy who meticulously seeks out and kills women due to a personal problem with his mother. All of these stem from the same place but the shape they take is different. I don't think this was someone from an anti-semitic group trying to send a message or they wouldn't have left room for doubt and I don't think it was a random drunk .

On one hand I'm inclined to think it was someone who was familiar with the school in some way because they seemed to just find one of the two boys in the whole school who had a single room. It seems very coincidental - finding the door with the broken lock, going up the staircase than staying on the ground floor, finding Chaim's room. If it was a complete outsider he was very 'lucky' to have found his way so quickly with minimal mistakes or to have gone unnoticed when wandering around trying all the outside doors and rooms. In that other thread, Chaim's classmate who chimed in said that more than one student on his floor beyond the one we've already heard about claimed they thought they'd heard the door in their room - which to me rules out being someone from the school, at least someone who would be familiar with that floor and known exactly where Chaim's room was.

I hope all of this makes sense as I'm rather tired.

My theory is that it was someone who had been keeping an eye on the school for some time or someone connected to the school or Chaim in some way but who wouldn't know the layout of the dorm. Perhaps someone who had an obsession with the idea of killing one of the students would have been watching closely though obviously not closely enough to know exactly where Chaim's room was. It could have been a way to get back at Chaim's family for some reason or perhaps a local who appeared outwardly friendly. I've read somewhere (either here or on the thread linked on the first page) that there were similar murders in the area - to me this suggests it was perhaps not an obsessive grudge-holder, as more psychopathic types would probably have specific 'type' and killing older people in their homes is different from a teenage boy at a school, unless the other victims were also Jewish or had links to the school.

I feel like whoever did it was probably either very experienced or a very keen amateur. I say this because the more amateurish marks - the possibility that the killer would have gone back to fetch an item left behind, the additional stab wounds that suggest something a bit more personal - could have been planted. Or they could have been genuine but with the killer also trying very hard to be very careful, so as to not leave any clues behind.

I also think the perp was an adult and not a student. The 'heavier' blade used to deliver the fatal blow would probably be too heavy (and hard to get, unless it had been stolen from a school tool shed, in which case it would have been noticed) for someone of Chaim's age and the older students were all away. IMO even one of the older students would have simply walked in using the electronic key pads as that would have seemed less suspicious and left less traces. I also think that a student who had been in the school would have had a harder time getting up in the middle of the night, disposing of the weapons and blood-stained clothes and all that and not wake up anyone else. Even the other student who had a single room would have been questioned by LE in this scenario as he was the only one who didn't have a roommate and as far as I know he wasn't considered a suspect. Students would also know where his room was located IMO.

I have a question - in the other forum Chaim's classmate said the administration didn't know the lock on that door was broken. Did it seem 'naturally' broken (like rust or decay from age for example) or could it have been forcibly broken? The latter could make the lock seem broken and would explain why none of the staff had noticed it. Has anyone read any details about this?

As usual, :twocents:, :moo:, etc. and I'm sorry if any of this sounds too graphic, I'm just trying to analyse the facts. All of this sounds very odd to me.

 

[dotr]

Wondering if the perp has totally put this out of his mind, or if every Halloween he is reminded of the grisly murder and feels remorse, or perhaps powerful, for going undetected this far?
Wonder if any one odd hangs around the school, or Chaim's grave on this anniversary?
Do the students stay at the school all the time, are they allowed outside?
Could Chaim and the elderly couple both have used the same taxi service, shopped at the same stores?

 

[dotr]

Video showing Yeshiva Chaim attended.

http://www.mahnishmah.com/system/scripts/modules/admin/pages/show_page.cgi?p=59944

 

[eman77]

Video showing Yeshiva Chaim attended.

http://www.mahnishmah.com/system/scripts/modules/admin/pages/show_page.cgi?p=59944

Video shows the dorm we linked to earlier. Longbeachcuse was right on.

Interesting note I hadn't heard before. Law enforcement says they have a hair from the crime scene. So once we find a suspect, we can test for DNA. That's why they want to "speak with everybody".

 

[eman77]

I'm still reading through this thread and the thread on another forum which was linked on page 1.

There are so many things that don't seem to fit together.

If this was a hate crime, I'd assume it was the meticulously calculated, personal grudge type. The difference between a guy killing a random woman in a fit of rage or killing women because of a grudge he passes off as political, and a guy who meticulously seeks out and kills women due to a personal problem with his mother. All of these stem from the same place but the shape they take is different. I don't think this was someone from an anti-semitic group trying to send a message or they wouldn't have left room for doubt and I don't think it was a random drunk .

On one hand I'm inclined to think it was someone who was familiar with the school in some way because they seemed to just find one of the two boys in the whole school who had a single room. It seems very coincidental - finding the door with the broken lock, going up the staircase than staying on the ground floor, finding Chaim's room. If it was a complete outsider he was very 'lucky' to have found his way so quickly with minimal mistakes or to have gone unnoticed when wandering around trying all the outside doors and rooms. In that other thread, Chaim's classmate who chimed in said that more than one student on his floor beyond the one we've already heard about claimed they thought they'd heard the door in their room - which to me rules out being someone from the school, at least someone who would be familiar with that floor and known exactly where Chaim's room was.

I hope all of this makes sense as I'm rather tired.

My theory is that it was someone who had been keeping an eye on the school for some time or someone connected to the school or Chaim in some way but who wouldn't know the layout of the dorm. Perhaps someone who had an obsession with the idea of killing one of the students would have been watching closely though obviously not closely enough to know exactly where Chaim's room was. It could have been a way to get back at Chaim's family for some reason or perhaps a local who appeared outwardly friendly. I've read somewhere (either here or on the thread linked on the first page) that there were similar murders in the area - to me this suggests it was perhaps not an obsessive grudge-holder, as more psychopathic types would probably have specific 'type' and killing older people in their homes is different from a teenage boy at a school, unless the other victims were also Jewish or had links to the school.

I feel like whoever did it was probably either very experienced or a very keen amateur. I say this because the more amateurish marks - the possibility that the killer would have gone back to fetch an item left behind, the additional stab wounds that suggest something a bit more personal - could have been planted. Or they could have been genuine but with the killer also trying very hard to be very careful, so as to not leave any clues behind.

I also think the perp was an adult and not a student. The 'heavier' blade used to deliver the fatal blow would probably be too heavy (and hard to get, unless it had been stolen from a school tool shed, in which case it would have been noticed) for someone of Chaim's age and the older students were all away. IMO even one of the older students would have simply walked in using the electronic key pads as that would have seemed less suspicious and left less traces. I also think that a student who had been in the school would have had a harder time getting up in the middle of the night, disposing of the weapons and blood-stained clothes and all that and not wake up anyone else. Even the other student who had a single room would have been questioned by LE in this scenario as he was the only one who didn't have a roommate and as far as I know he wasn't considered a suspect. Students would also know where his room was located IMO.

I have a question - in the other forum Chaim's classmate said the administration didn't know the lock on that door was broken. Did it seem 'naturally' broken (like rust or decay from age for example) or could it have been forcibly broken? The latter could make the lock seem broken and would explain why none of the staff had noticed it. Has anyone read any details about this?

As usual, :twocents:, :moo:, etc. and I'm sorry if any of this sounds too graphic, I'm just trying to analyse the facts. All of this sounds very odd to me.

Thanks for joining in. The more attention this gets, the more new ideas we can introduce.

There was no "message" or signature left behind. The killer's M/O was kill this kid and get the hell out of there. Perhaps his signature is killing Jewish people.

This was both an organized and disorganized murder. Organized because minimal evidence was left at the crime scene and outside. Disorganized because the murder itself was a bloody mess. Interesting contrast. Sounds like someone who thought it through well then went crazy during the actual killing.

Interesting notes on the meticulousness. The killers entrance and escape does seem meticulous. How can someone that careful not to leave evidence, possibly "wing it" and find the backdoor unlocked, walk up to a random floor and start checking random rooms.

Being from the school does not have to be the answer. Perhaps he planned this out a previous night? Perhaps while the kids were out of school? I also believe moving the body was due to double checking nothing was left behind. Sign of somebody who DOES NOT want to get caught. Somebody calculating and not out of his mind. Well-balanced and perhaps intelligent.

Lots of possibilities. Maybe a Jew who hates his own people? Maybe a non-Jew who hates Jews. Maybe someone who specifically hates Chaim.

Here's the thing that rules out the "get back at his father" theories for me. That would mean this was a professional murder. A "hit". Those are THE most organized murders. They would kill Chaim as quickly and quietly as possible. There would not be blood all over the room and a dozen stab wounds. I think it's pretty obvious that the location, force, and quantity of the wounds show that this was someone who had a VERY strong emotional reaction while killing Chaim. One that hitmen just don't have.

Plus a hitman would not be too fond of killing a kid, much less make a total mess. Unless the guy who had a problem with the father did this directly.

Lots of ideas. I was both answering your post and thinking out loud. I still think the elderly murders are worth pursuing. But we are learning a lot about our killer.

 

[Frannie]

Thank you eman n77

- I hope it works - this is what the yeshiva dorm looked like then.