NY NY - Ellery, Rte 17, WhtFem 30-37, UP15489 193UFNY, GSW, poss from Canada or Europe, note, clothes, Dec'83

[carbuff]

Still an open question...how do Americans right this numbers and letters?

I'll try to get a moment to copy some of the numbers in a typical American hand and post it. Kind of swamped today though. Basically American is rounder and less pointy.

 

[carbuff]

White/Hispanic = if it's the only negative, go for submitting !!

Stranger things did happen, and forensic estimate about race can be wrong.

Generally Hispanic is a subgroup within White/Caucasian. Can be mixed with AA or native traits that might or might not be mentioned. And what's detected in skeletal remains isn't necessarily anything the living individual knew about.

If I'm ever missing and they look at my skeleton, it's going to be mentioned that I have "native American characteristics" that were noticed when I had a bone scan a few years back. Except that as far as I know, there's no Native American individual anywhere in my family tree

 

[DaisyChains]

I don't think that the woman is from Europe. It is of course possible, but I think it is more probable that she was from Canada. Reasons for that are the location. Ellery, NY is close to the Canadian border. The woman had a kind of IUD that was used in Canada. The memo pad with the numbers and abbreviations on it was from a hotel in Vancouver, British Columbia. Perhaps she lived in an European country for a couple of years to work there and then returned to Canada. That would explain the European dental work.

It is true that nowadays German area codes have five digits, but just since July 1, 1993. From 1961 until 1993, the area codes in Germany had four digits. As a result these three numbers can't be German area codes. Today they are, but not back in 1983.

I tried to decipher the abbreviations and numbers:

Sar.k.R.h. 24233
K.R.Ba 68307
Carg. 74211

I have no idea what that could mean. Perhaps the last letters are an abbreviation for Calgary? :waitasec:

ive worked in hotels out here in the desert and have encountered the script of many Canadians as well as Euros (specifically Germans) as they are our most frequent visitors here in the winter and my conclusion from seeing documents with their handwriting and mailing their postcards etc that this is the handwriting of a German woman (or woman from the more Germanic/Dutch euro countries). They even curiously write their numbers different from us to the point that I often had to write a number “9” the way they do to make sure they had security door codes written correctly. Another part of my job was inputting their address from their passports and the way the Germans would write their address vs. how it appeared on their passport was very curious.

-DC

 

[DaisyChains]

Thank you Tony and welcome.

I'm Dutch and I write the 7 and 1 just like that. How do people from the states write it? BTW I think she's probably European or has European/Canadian roots....but who is she?...... There is this one woman from The Netherlands that really could be her but there is so little information and she is stated with blue eyes. And than another woman who would fit quit well, but is listed as white/Hispanic.... and than my "old time" missing woman Mary Flanagan from Ireland, still considering her...her brothers and sister still need closure....still looking out for her....http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/1140dfuk.html

I have a lot about her story.....

i believe she was a Euro woman as well BitofHope! So glad we have you here to help source the missing in Europe �� the way she writes reminds me of the German and Germanic type writing and yes Netherlands, too.

 

[DaisyChains]

I'll try to get a moment to copy some of the numbers in a typical American hand and post it. Kind of swamped today though. Basically American is rounder and less pointy.

Usually when the German’s wrote the numbers it was like cursive numbers - lol
fancy numbers as I’d call it. Both men and women employed this and I remember thinking the men had just as pretty handwriting as the women. I really think it has something to do with the different styles of cursive according to WHICH STATE A PERSON LIVED in Germany:

https://german.stackexchange.com/questions/11027/how-different-is-german-handwriting-from-americans

 

[DaisyChains]

Currently looking into this: “[FONT=&amp]Nobody uses cursive writing after leaving school, so learning to write cursive is not necessary. I my experience the Handwriting differs more, than you'd expect. My sons name is Ian and he often becomes Jan since the writing of I vs. J is not consistent. Some write a I with a hook like J and the J dipping below the line. This inconsistency seems to stem from reunification. When learning non cursive handwriting, most people in West Germany will have learned [/FONT]Grundschrift[FONT=&amp] and in the GDR you will have learned [/FONT]Schulausgangsschrift”

to me it it looks like Schulausgangsschrift - the 8 especially and whimsy of it compared to Grundschrift. So this might indicate she was from the GDR before making her way overseas! Issue is the GDR actually was no longer by 1989-1990.

[FONT=&amp]In 1989, numerous social, economic and political forces in the GDR and abroad led to the fall of the Berlin Wall and the establishment of a government committed to liberalization. The following year open elections were held,[SUP][10][/SUP]and international negotiations led to the signing of the Final Settlement treaty on the status and borders of Germany. The GDR dissolved itself and Germany was reunified on 3 October 1990, becoming a fully sovereign state again. Several of the GDR's leaders, notably its last communist leader Egon Krenz, were prosecuted in reunified Germany for crimes committed during the Cold War.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Geographically, the German Democratic Republic bordered the Baltic Sea to the north; the Polish People's Republic to the east; Czechoslovakia to the southeast and West Germany to the southwest and west. Internally, the GDR also bordered the Soviet sector of Allied-occupied Berlin known as East Berlinwhich was also administered as the state's de facto capital. It also bordered the three sectors occupied by the United States, United Kingdomand France known collectively as West Berlin. The three sectors occupied by the Western nations were sealed off from the rest of the GDR by the Berlin Wall from its construction in 1961 until it was brought down in 1989.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany[/FONT]

 

[DaisyChains]

Many mentioned this UID reminds them of a teacher. If she was from east Germany prior to visiting the states she could have been: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/nov/08/1989-berlin-wall

Large numbers of ordinary workers lost their jobs, but so too did thousands of research workers and academics. As a result of the purging of academia, research and scientific establishments in a process of political vetting, more than a million individuals with degrees lost their jobs. This constituted about 50% of that group, creating in east Germany the highest percentage of professional unemployment in the world; all university chancellors and directors of state enterprises as well as 75,000 teachers lost their jobs and many were blacklisted. This process was in stark contrast to what happened in west Germany after the war, when few ex-Nazis were treated in this manner.
In the GDR everyone had a legally guaranteed security of tenure and ownership to the properties where they lived. After unification, 2.2m claims by non-GDR citizens were made on their homes. Many lost houses they'd lived in for decades; a number committed suicide rather than give them up. Ironically, claims for restitution the other way around, by east Germans on properties in the west, were rejected as "out of time".
Since the demise of the GDR, many have come to recognise and regret that the genuine "social achievements" they enjoyed were dismantled: social and gender equality, full employment and lack of existential fears, as well as subsidised rents, public transport, culture and sports facilities. Unfortunately, the collapse of the GDR and "state socialism" came shortly before the collapse of the "free market" system in the west.

 

[Bit of hope]

IMO she doesn't have European traits persé. They think she is European because of her IUD, dentals and her Italian camisole (no doubts about that) and maybe the note.

I will share with you all I did find out about Ellerly Doe:

https://identifyus.org/en/cases/15489 created July21, 2016 / modified June 29, 2017
Estimated age: 33 - 37 years old (have to be born ca. between 1946-1950) Could also be ca.30 other source. In that case born in 1953, Conclusion: Birth-range between1946 – 1953 Probably late 30’s.
Approximate Heightand Weight: 5'4" (1.58 – 1.60 cm/Namus 64 inches estimated) ; 128 lbs. 128 pounds, 64 kilo
DistinguishingCharacteristics: Brown eyes; Shoulder-longLong(er) brown hair (mousy, dark) with some grey at the temple.She had a wart above the left eye(Could grow in a few months), beneath eyebrow and a 15mm raised mole behind the left ear. T-formed scaron throat. Where is it? Every time I readdifferent things about this scar. On neck/on throat/T scar Neck job? thyroid surgery A Cut? Can’t see the exact place. She had shoe size 5-6 (36 1/2 -37 ½ European) and A+ blood type.
t-shaped scar on neck. A+blood type. According to an anthropologistshe had at least one child 15 years prior to her death. Different statements/interpretationson that (She had at least 1 child inthe 15 years before she died) The child could have born ca. between 1968 –1983. Another article states that achild was born ca. 15 yrs prior. If she was born in 1946 she had a childwhen she was 22 yrs. If she was born in 1953 she must have been 15 yrs, andeverything in between. So this child could be deceased, put up for adoption orabandoned.

Dentals: She had bridge work on the right side of her mouthwhich appeared to be expensive European dental work, because of the gold. Herdentalsappeared to be of Europeanorigin. Could also be a US or Canadiandentist from Europe who used the European state of art. Maybe she emigratedduring her life from Europa to America or Canada? Worked in Europe and wentback to Canada/USA. It looks like she had a very pronounced cupid bow and actuallyI think an irregular cupid bow, with the right sitehigher than the left site. Could also be the fixed up post mortem pic.

DNA (per Namus23-1-2018) Sample available - Not yet submitted and this is since 11-25-2017
Clothing: She was wearing a white V - neck camisole(inexpensive) that was found to have been made in Carpi, Italy and nonexportable maybe UID is from Italiandescent or just traveled through Europe, maybe she borrowed clothes from afriend staying overnight?, a green, brown,red checked trench coat (expensive), reversible to olive drab (European size 40) Wool Could it be a Burberry London coat? , blue gray wool crewneck pullover plaid wool skirt(handmade) various shades of brown blue and red. Doesn’t feel like a prostitute…but you never now.
Next is my pondering on older information known. The victim had no shoes and because no mentioning of stockings, panties, legging or the like, possibly sexual assaulted,but not confirmed. Considering the time of year, there was snow, heavy rainfalls…You would expect somebody to wear something under her skirt. The fact thatnothing of the like was found raises questions. When you are hitchhiking(doesn’t seems like she is the “type” for that, but we will never know) aretraveling in a car/truck why would you put your shoes and pantyhose/panties off?When she was only shoeless…..You are hitchhiking….if everything is wet to dry.To roll yourself up, doing your legs under your body…because they are wet andyou want to dry them in the car, you walked a long time and your feet hurt…….whenonly the shoes where off that would be a logical explanation. When you areforced to go from some place and you don’t have time to put everything on (butstill you have your coat on?) Your where sexual assaulted…killed…(stillthinking about the coat and the other clothes who she had on her) She was notdriving herself. Who would drive with no underwear/no shoes? Public info made recently, she was sexual assaulted.

The only thing she had was ahand written note from the Blue Boy Motor Lodge in Vancouver,British Columbia. The note was in her pocket…..did a lot of investigations onthat…but still belief we are fooled, the note could be from the killer.
Other: The victim had an IUD which was foreign made (Finland, Belgium and Holland),used in Canada but not distributed in the USA.
She was found in the ditch on a highway used bytruckers. There were possible sightings of a woman matchingher description at a Pennsylvania truck stop the day before her murder, whichmay suggest she was travelling east, a local newspaper reporter wrote in 2006. FromCanada, ...traveling to? Just some thoughts about the taken route and where shewas found....According to ajournalist the numbers on the Blue Boy note (Vancouver, BC, Canada) could havebeen internal phone numbers of JFK airport. She was traveling probably east,was she on her way to JKF? The logical route from Erie, PA to JFK is different(route 80 would have been more logical) and not the route she was found.
I find it strange that she was found onthe illogical side of the road if she was travelling east. You have to crossthe road ... maybe she tried to escape from the car/truck ... and then shotwhile crossing the road, but if she tried to escape wouldn’t it be more logicalto run in the fields on the site of the car/truck she was sitting…the rightseat…..There was no mentioning off a lot of blood. She was sexuallyassaulted (explaining no under gowns) somewhere else, shot and dumped. As far as we know she could also been in a freezer for while…pfff.

 

[Giucy]

By browsing in NY newspapers ads, I can say that the phone area code was not always mentioned

 

[CarlK90245]

By browsing in NY newspapers ads, I can say that the phone area code was not always mentioned

View attachment 129269View attachment 129269

Back in that era, if you were dialing locally (i.e., within the area code of the number you are dialing), it was not necessary to dial the area code. A local call required you to dial only 7 digits, and the system presumes the first three digits to be the local area code.

Now it is different. All calls, even local calls, require the caller dial 10 digits (including the area code).

 

[Giucy]

That's true Carl !!

However, I really need someone to check on Ancestry for a 1983 phone directory in :
- New York
- Philadelphia
- Seattle

I live in France, without access to old US phone directories & no money for an Ancestry account.

In this case, the only search parameters are :
- Living in "State" (enter the State)
- Year of event : 1983

To see how numbers were structured in phone directories in 1983 in Philadelphia, NY and Seattle.

Got results on Ancestry, but couldn't see them because of having no account.


It will really help the case by pointing out a direction for those darn phone numbers on the note !!

 

[Giucy]

Meanwhile, if these numbers are indeed phone numbers, they could be German phone numbers.

A 1983 Berlin phone book sample reveals that numbers are 7 digits. But written in 2L-5N format.

Still scratching my head over this one !!

 

[Giucy]

This 1983 OK phone book has some 2L-5N numbers : https://m.ebay.ca/itm/Vintage-1983-...262838?hash=item56a66bb076:g:PuUAAOSw-09aJ5a-

 

[Giucy]

Five numbers digits in Ghana, 1986 : https://books.google.fr/books?hl=fr...tory+africa&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=doctor

 

[Giucy]

Soviet Union numbers could had been 5 digits in those days : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_numbers_in_the_Soviet_Union

 

[Giucy]

I know you might be sick by my so many posts, but I thought about another hypothesis yesterday, while doing some research.

Could she be an anti-apartheid activist fleeing persecutions ?
Because that would explain her IUD not being available in US, her European clothing & her note with 5 digits numbers. Her handwriting can also be of South Africa.

If my hypothesis is backed up by more solid facts, it would be a new lead to solve our mystery !


Thoughts ?

 

[Bit of hope]

I know you might be sick by my so many posts, but I thought about another hypothesis yesterday, while doing some research.

Could she be an anti-apartheid activist fleeing persecutions ?
Because that would explain her IUD not being available in US, her European clothing & her note with 5 digits numbers. Her handwriting can also be of South Africa.

If my hypothesis is backed up by more solid facts, it would be a new lead to solve our mystery !


Thoughts ?

No problems with your posts, lol. I think the theory is far fetched. I've been looking in the German angle. There a German concentrations both in Canada (the prairie provinces, Saskatchewan (half of them are German) and Pennsylvania. They speak Pennsylfaanisch Deitsch, a variety of West Central German spoken by the Amish and Old Order Mennonites (the home made skirt could mean something) in the United States and Canada, closely related to the Palatine dialects. Maybe the note has a link to that, Germans writing all nouns with capitals.

 

[Giucy]

I agree it is far fetched.

But it can help explain some elements that don't make sense otherwise :
- listed as white for the US, but listed as coloured in SA
- in 1983, a SA political activist was assassinated in Paris because she knew too much. The shotgun in the mouth is in line with this type of motive
- 1983 was a hot year for the fight against apartheid : http://www.sahistory.org.za/article/apartheid-1980s-grade-12
- sexual assault & rape were mean of torture in those days. So, if the shot is indeed politically motivated, the guy could have assaulted her
- the kind of clothing found & the IUD
- no ID because most SA fleeing the country left their dompass at the hands of relatives
- many disappeared not found per the TRC (Truth and Reconciliation Committee)
- Black & coloured missing reports were not accepted by the police in SA, so, no wonder the US police didn't know then
- SA anti apartheid political parties had ties with East Germany, which can explain the handwriting. East Germany was quite active against apartheid in those days
- her family might not know she had fled to North America, so was unable to claim her

I understand it is far fetched, but since our explored leads brought no results, we have to find other angles.

Checking with Telkom (the SA phone company) to find out what was phone numbers structure in those days.


I don't say that it's a 100% absolute correct theory, but it's a strong possibility to be explored. If it's not the right lead, be it, it's the wrong one and door is closed.
But at least, we get an answer with facts instead of only speculating.

If the straightforward path doesn't work, let take the problem the other way round is my motto for problem solving.

See what I mean ?

 

[Giucy]

I've been looking in the German angle. There a German concentrations both in Canada (the prairie provinces, Saskatchewan (half of them are German) and Pennsylvania. They speak Pennsylfaanisch Deitsch, a variety of West Central German spoken by the Amish and Old Order Mennonites (the home made skirt could mean something) in the United States and Canada, closely related to the Palatine dialects.

Be careful of the IUD because it was not available in the US in those days !
Home made skirt might mean something if we know of its fabric and when it was made. Because if said fabric was unavailable in North America, we are back to square #1.
The devil is in the details.

Maybe the note has a link to that, Germans writing all nouns with capitals.

This is a possibility.
However, Afrikaans is derived of Dutch & German. So, if said lady was familiar with this language, it can explain the handwriting. Sewetsana has a similar way to write names.
Handwriting being influenced by the foreign language we speak too.

 

[Bit of hope]

Is the used firearm somewhere mentioned in one of the reports? I can't recall I read that somewhere. Could be interesting to know.