NY-LI 10 bodies found on Beach-Poss. SrlKlr-12/10-4 id'd; more found 3/11 #6

[Redbird]

In all the MSM reports, LE has included SG as part of their search for victims of the SK. Found another body, but still haven't found SG sort of statements by LE. They know a whole lot more than we do. They are doing the best job of holding their cards close to their chest I have ever seen, and I don't get the feeling, as I did in the Cummings case, that it is because they don't have anything. LE has NEVER said they don't think the cases are connected and that is what I think they are connected.

 

[epiphany]

We know that both Megan and Amber were "picked up" by their fatal last "date". This arrangement would provide anonymity for the Perp who wouldn't have to reveal his address and wouldn't be seen by anyone who knew the victim. My understanding is that this is somewhat unusual. According to many SK's of prostitutes, the "dates" that result in murder are the exception and these men were regular "punters" who were often well know by the girls they hired. SK's often turn out to be "regulars" who were know and trusted. This pattern would apply to both Rifkin and Shuman, the two LI SK's. The "date" that Amber accepted for $1500 was unusual both in the high pay and the "pick up". This sounds like the killing was planned; if we can believe the roommate/boyfriend/pimp. I suspect that there was something a little "hinkey" about the arrangement that caused the perp to "up the offer" (which he wouldn't have to pay anyway). I wonder if any other LI/NY online sex workers had requests that they be "picked up" that for whatever reason they did not accept. Perhaps they just had a "bad feeling".

SG's last "date", which was probably fatal, does not fit this pattern. She was to provide her own transportation and the pay was apparently in line with accepted practices. The John may have expected her to arrive alone but it would have required him to give his address and, if he planned to kill her, her car would have been seen by neighbors and would then have to be disposed of. We don't know what happened that night but I don't think it was expected to go down the way Megan and Amber did.

SG is perhaps really a mystery within a mystery. LE knows more about the night than they are telling us. Is it possible that, in her panicked state, she called one of her "regulars" who lived in the area and he came and "rescued" her and realized he had an untraceable situation?

Respectfully, BBM. Yes, and I think that Melissa B may also have been "picked up" in a vehicle literally by the SK/john near her residence. Yesterday, was the first time I had read that Melissa was last seen:

Meanwhile, 24-year-old Melissa Barthelemy, who dreamed of becoming a cosmetologist, was last seen on July 10, 2009, sitting on a curb outside the Bronx basement apartment she shared with her five cats.

Snipped; BBM
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...erial-killer-victims-bond-in-support-group/2/

Whether or not MB was shortly after also seen walking from her Bronx apartment by another witness or two, does not change my thinking about this, at least for me, "new" piece of information.

I'm a born and raised NYCer, and when we were teens and even in our early 20's, often if we were waiting for a ride, a lift, a car---if there were not a brownstone/limestone "stoop" around (more common in Manhattan and Brooklyn), we literally took to sitting on the curb to wait for our "ride."

As Melissa either sees the vehicle approach that the SK/john may have described to her, or gets a call from the SK/john that he is now in close proximity to her street, she then rises from the curb and walks towards his vehicle or to the nearby location chosen (MSM reports that MB was last seen walking in the Bronx.).

I'm still not ready to let go of my opinion that SG turned down this job from the SK/john, and he contacted her via cell-text and/or call prior to her leaving the residence of her last known john in the gated community.

 

[Redbird]

IMO a prostitute would definitely have to be out of her mind if she allowed a john to inject her with drugs. Highly unlikely. Most people snort cocaine. It is a rich man's drug or used to be and it greatly enhances a sexual high. Most likely drug to be used during a sexual encounter (other than Viagra). All of this JMO.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Mountain Kat, I am inclined to agree with your line of thinking, a lot of info can be obtained through looking at things geographically. I have some questions for you if you don't mind,

Have you placed dates and times along with the geographical points on the map? Also, did you include the phone calls to all victims as well, particularly with MB? And did you include SG in the geography?

I'd be very interested to see what you came up with
Thanks

1). I included all the known dates and times. Some I don't know.
2). Known phone calls marked from MSG, TS, NY Port Authority, MB's vm check from Massapequa. Does that cover them all?
3). Haven't added SG info yet, other than the OBA location. I'm don't even have a full pic of locations to connect to her, so if you have added info, pm me.

I've been hesitant to add AC murders info to the map, because I've been afraid that, if they aren't connected, it will obscure my few of the big picture wrt Long Island (my mind works off the visual of the entire mapped area, if that makes sense). If they ARE connected though, I'm missing the big picture anyway, so I'm going to add AC info sometime today, marked in a different color, so I can visually separate the two. If it works, great...if it doesn't, I'll just have to delete that info I guess.

The MSG/TS/NYPABT locations, as well as MB's Tremont location, pose a problem for me. They are slightly outside of what I consider the basic loop. I can't really find a way to reconcile them. If you have any thoughts on those locations, I'd love to hear them. But bear in mind, I am a country girl. The big city with it's subways, ferries, etc. are a mystery to me, so spell out thoughts/connections loud and clear.

 

[Redbird]

Do we have any other source than the boyfriends of Megan and Amber for the "fact" that they were picked up by a john the nights they were killed? I don't necessarily believe either one of these people. To me it is even possible that they are somehow connected to the SK.

 

[dcgrumpy]

1). I included all the known dates and times. Some I don't know.
2). Known phone calls marked from MSG, TS, NY Port Authority, MB's vm check from Massapequa. Does that cover them all?
3). Haven't added SG info yet, other than the OBA location. I'm don't even have a full pic of locations to connect to her, so if you have added info, pm me.

I've been hesitant to add AC murders info to the map, because I've been afraid that, if they aren't connected, it will obscure my few of the big picture wrt Long Island (my mind works off the visual of the entire mapped area, if that makes sense). If they ARE connected though, I'm missing the big picture anyway, so I'm going to add AC info sometime today, marked in a different color, so I can visually separate the two. If it works, great...if it doesn't, I'll just have to delete that info I guess.

The MSG/TS/NYPABT locations, as well as MB's Tremont location, pose a problem for me. They are slightly outside of what I consider the basic loop. I can't really find a way to reconcile them. If you have any thoughts on those locations, I'd love to hear them. But bear in mind, I am a country girl. The big city with it's subways, ferries, etc. are a mystery to me, so spell out thoughts/connections loud and clear.

Those are all very crowded congested areas. So it would be hard to track someone using a cell phone in the area. Even checking surveillance cameras in the are there will be so many people it will be easy to blend in with a crowd and not be spotted.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

interesting, as far as i've read, MB's BF/ Pimp wasn't on site (hotel) when she left to meet the SK.
do you have any links that confirm your statement that the SK called MB's PF / Pimp directly?

Thanks

Fashionella is confusing Meliisa Barthelemy with Megan Waterman. MW travelled from from ME to LI with her boyfriend, AC. She's the one last sighted walking to a nearby convencience store from a hotel in Happauge. MB was last seen at her apt. in the Tremont section of the Bronx.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Those are all very crowded congested areas. So it would be hard to track someone using a cell phone in the area. Even checking surveillance cameras in the are there will be so many people it will be easy to blend in with a crowd and not be spotted.

I get that part. What I don't get is what brought out SK to those areas. I'm convinced he lives in LI. That would be one hell of a commute to a regualr job, wouldn't it? On the other hand, if he works closer to LI, but sometimes travels for business, it would make more sense.

As for MB, what would bring her all the way from the Bronx to my general loop area? Same with MBB. Last seen at bus terminal. I'm not seeing our SK killing these women in these locations and carrying them all the way back to the dumpsite. But if he lives on LI (which I believe he does), maybe he decided to carry the body with him on his way back home. Maybe having the bodies nearby feeds him psychologically, so he feels he HAS to dump them where he does, so he can ride past them on a regular basis.

Just random thoughts. I need coffee.

 

[dcgrumpy]

I get that part. What I don't get is what brought out SK to those areas. I'm convinced he lives in LI. That would be one hell of a commute to a regualr job, wouldn't it? On the other hand, if he works closer to LI, but sometimes travels for business, it would make more sense.

As for MB, what would bring her all the way from the Bronx to my general loop area? Same with MBB. Last seen at bus terminal. I'm not seeing our SK killing these women in these locations and carrying them all the way back to the dumpsite. But if he lives on LI (which I believe he does), maybe he decided to carry the body with him on his way back home. Maybe having the bodies nearby feeds him psychologically, so he feels he HAS to dump them where he does, so he can ride past them on a regular basis.

Just random thoughts. I need coffee.

I think he purposely went to those areas just to make the phone calls.

No it's not that far of a commute thousands of LIers work in Manhattan.

 

[NJGuy]

The MSG/TS/NYPABT locations, as well as MB's Tremont location, pose a problem for me. They are slightly outside of what I consider the basic loop. I can't really find a way to reconcile them. If you have any thoughts on those locations, I'd love to hear them. But bear in mind, I am a country girl. The big city with it's subways, ferries, etc. are a mystery to me, so spell out thoughts/connections loud and clear. [/QUOTE]

I sent you a PM with some added info, not sure if it will help or not but passed it along anyway.

One added thought about why Tremont may pose a problem. Figuring the SK would definitely need a car to pick up MB and transport her to where she as found, perhaps the SK was not driving directly from LI when he picked her up. I-95 runs directly through the Bronx, and is it possible he was coming from NJ, which is just over the bridge, taking 95.? Or another boro entirely. That section of the Bronx also is right near the Zoo, and not far from Yankee Stadium (major attractions.)

So it sort of makes me think two things, either:

A) He found MB and decided he needed to have her and drove directly to the Bronx to get her, or possibly he had been a client before and promised to pay for an overnight

B) He was traveling from somewhere other than LI when he picked her up. Which begs the question of where was he coming from and why?

 

[waltzingmatilda]

:coffeeup:

Here you go Mountain Kat!

wm

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I think he purposely went to those areas just to make the phone calls.

No it's not that far of a commute thousands of LIers work in Manhattan.

That would have been my thinking too, DC. But, the last known location of MB and MBB were close to these areas, too (Bronx and NYPABT). So he didn't go there just to make phone calls, unless these 2 women came to him on LI.

I think he travels to the city for work. Whether that's a regular job, or just occasional business trips, I can't say.

What's the nearest place on LI that you can catch a train into Manhattan?

 

[snapdragon2]

It's so hard to say because I don't think we have all the (honest) facts about what happened at the end of Shannan's night. I agree the drivers story is a little suspicous.

There are two main points that don't add up for me. The first being that the 'dump site' is located so close to JB's house. Seems a little too coincidental to me that he killed her right after he left a house located next to his dump site. Sure, he could have driven girls there before but it just doesn't really add up to me.

The second is the fact that Shannan fled the house. If JB was totally innocent, wouldn't she have had the time to call the police, give them his exact address and wait 5 or 10 minutes for them to arrive. The fact JB had to call the driver (how did he even have Shannan's driver's number?) and ask the driver to come just doesn't make a lot of sense. I've read in numerous sources that the john picked up Shannan at another location and drove her to his house himself and that the driver waited outside the gate. So, why, if she had so much space from the driver wouldn't she have been able to escape from him.

Hi -

I'm trying to dismiss the driver as a suspect (or not) based on exhausting any plausible situations that would explain how he could be both the SK and responsible for Shannon's fear & disappearance. This is because I feel it is logical to use an assumption that the murders & Shannon's situation are linked as a starting point (and move on from that if disproved.) That would also make him and JB the first to investigate as suspects, and move on from there.

So the only thing I can think of that would possibly explain how the driver could be linked to both would be if the choice of his dumping ground (where at that point he would have left two bodies) was also somehow linked to JB. Otherwise, it would indeed be too much of a coincidence. So what could that link possibly be? The only thing I can think of would be that JB is a john, and that means he could have booked other prostitutes other times, and the driver may have discovered the area that way and just realized it was perfect for his purposes. That isn't necessarily probable, but it isn't impossible at all. However, for the rest of the scenario to fit in, it would also have to mean that the driver intended for SG to be a victim that night after she visited JB, because otherwise again it would just be too coincidental (that she would become afraid of something and make a scene unless it was connected to him.) The only thing that would make sense in that case would be that she happened to get a call to go to JB's, and he took that as an opportunity to plan to do something, which in turn would only be plausible if for some reason he didn't think people would - or if he was really bold - could - connect him with her disappearing (e.g. he knew no-one else knew she had that or any appt.) Again, not all that probable, but not impossible either. But for that to be true, you'd then have to have an explanation for why she suddenly seemed to clue in that she was in danger from him. I don't have a possible explanation for that! Of course, his actually being responsible for her disappearance would at that point have been not a choice - he would have felt it probably wasn't a good idea but he had to do it and take the risk of being linked.

What I'm positing sounds almost mundane (he found the area bringing someone else out there in the past; then when another escort - SG - got a call to go out there he just decided to use that as an opportunity to do something (laziness? the idea of being out there stirred a compulsion? whatever); she somehow discovered something that made her fear him, his plan went awry, but then he felt he had no choice & since he still had the opportunity he did it.) but sometimes things really are just that seemingly dumb!

I don't think it's entirely impossible. And it would fit in with a bunch of other things, as tabled in my previous post.

That being said, I do agree it's not exactly likely either! But that's why I'm throwing it out there...

With regard to your other point: she didn't want to leave the house, apparently. I always thought that was curious, if it was true. (That's why the only thing I could think of if JB was the perpetrator was that it wasn't that she didn't want to leave, but was already hiding from JB in another room or something, and didn't know how to get out - HE said she didn't want to leave.) Anyway, back to the driver theory - it's true - if she was just afraid of the driver, why wouldn't she ask JB for his address (she was already calling 911 so she wasn't afraid to involve them) or his help? Maybe he wouldn't tell her (thought she was just hysterical, didn't want the police coming by.) She just wouldn't leave and was trying to get the police there, but then JB got the driver - the very person she was afraid of - to come and get her, so THAT'S why she ran out in a panic. Because once outside it really does seem like she was hiding and running from the driver, I have to admit. (I've always leaned towards JB before this.)

You brought up something I've been curious about - reports that she went somewhere else first and then went to JB's. You said she was driven there by him, but I haven't heard that part before. Is any of this verified? Or does it come from early inaccurate reports that said she had an appt. on Fire Island, which could just have come from it's proximity. I be very interested in knowing once and for all if any of that is true - did the driver take her right to JB's or not? Does anyone know for certain, and if so, how?

Anyway, she didn't have space from him when she fled the house - he came into the house. And prior to that, even just "down the street" is too close when you're terrified of someone.

 

[dcgrumpy]

That would have been my thinking too, DC. But, the last known location of MB and MBB were close to these areas, too (Bronx and NYPABT). So he didn't go there just to make phone calls, unless these 2 women came to him on LI.

I think he travels to the city for work. Whether that's a regular job, or just occasional business trips, I can't say.

What's the nearest place on LI that you can catch a train into Manhattan?

There are over 100 stations on LI.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Hi -

I'm trying to dismiss the driver as a suspect (or not) based on exhausting any plausible situations that would explain how he could be both the SK and responsible for Shannon's fear & disappearance. This is because I feel it is logical to use an assumption that the murders & Shannon's situation are linked as a starting point (and move on from that if disproved.) That would also make him and JB the first to investigate as suspects, and move on from there.

So the only thing I can think of that would possibly explain how the driver could be linked to both would be if the choice of his dumping ground (where at that point he would have left two bodies) was also somehow linked to JB. Otherwise, it would indeed be too much of a coincidence. So what could that link possibly be? The only thing I can think of would be that JB is a john, and that means he could have booked other prostitutes other times, and the driver may have discovered the area that way and just realized it was perfect for his purposes. That isn't necessarily probable, but it isn't impossible at all. However, for the rest of the scenario to fit in, it would also have to mean that the driver intended for SG to be a victim that night after she visited JB, because otherwise again it would just be too coincidental (that she would become afraid of something and make a scene unless it was connected to him.) The only thing that would make sense in that case would be that she happened to get a call to go to JB's, and he took that as an opportunity to plan to do something, which in turn would only be plausible if for some reason he didn't think people would - or if he was really bold - could - connect him with her disappearing (e.g. he knew no-one else knew she had that or any appt.) Again, not all that probable, but not impossible either. But for that to be true, you'd then have to have an explanation for why she suddenly seemed to clue in that she was in danger from him. I don't have a possible explanation for that! Of course, his actually being responsible for her disappearance would at that point have been not a choice - he would have felt it probably wasn't a good idea but he had to do it and take the risk of being linked.

What I'm positing sounds almost mundane (he found the area bringing someone else out there in the past; then when another escort - SG - got a call to go out there he just decided to use that as an opportunity to do something (laziness? the idea of being out there stirred a compulsion? whatever); she somehow discovered something that made her fear him, his plan went awry, but then he felt he had no choice & since he still had the opportunity he did it.) but sometimes things really are just that seemingly dumb!

I don't think it's entirely impossible. And it would fit in with a bunch of other things, as tabled in my previous post.

That being said, I do agree it's not exactly likely either! But that's why I'm throwing it out there...

With regard to your other point: she didn't want to leave the house, apparently. I always thought that was curious, if it was true. (That's why the only thing I could think of if JB was the perpetrator was that it wasn't that she didn't want to leave, but was already hiding from JB in another room or something, and didn't know how to get out - HE said she didn't want to leave.) Anyway, back to the driver theory - it's true - if she was just afraid of the driver, why wouldn't she ask JB for his address (she was already calling 911 so she wasn't afraid to involve them) or his help? Maybe he wouldn't tell her (thought she was just hysterical, didn't want the police coming by.) She just wouldn't leave and was trying to get the police there, but then JB got the driver - the very person she was afraid of - to come and get her, so THAT'S why she ran out in a panic. Because once outside it really does seem like she was hiding and running from the driver, I have to admit. (I've always leaned towards JB before this.)

You brought up something I've been curious about - reports that she went somewhere else first and then went to JB's. You said she was driven there by him, but I haven't heard that part before. Is any of this verified? Or does it come from early inaccurate reports that said she had an appt. on Fire Island, which could just have come from it's proximity. I be very interested in knowing once and for all if any of that is true - did the driver take her right to JB's or not? Does anyone know for certain, and if so, how?

Anyway, she didn't have space from him when she fled the house - he came into the house. And prior to that, even just "down the street" is too close when you're terrified of someone.

BBM

Adding my request for a source. First I've ever heard of it.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

There are over 100 stations on LI.

Hey, I TOLD you I was a country girl! :crazy:

And UGH! That's not going to work for mapping purposes, is it? :banghead: I'm taking a breather.

 

[Jackalow]

LIRR Map

http://www.mta.info/lirr/Timetable/images/lirr.gif

 

[dcgrumpy]

Hey, I TOLD you I was a country girl! :crazy:

And UGH! That's not going to work for mapping purposes, is it? :banghead: I'm taking a breather.

No. LOL. No matter where you are on LI there's a station not very far away. There are probably 10 stations within a 20 minute drive from my house.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Hmmm...2 train stations in Massapequa.

ETA: I need to review the reports about these phone calls to MB's sister. I'm missing something, I think.

 

[Jackalow]

Hmmm...2 train stations in Massapequa.

ETA: I need to review the reports about these phone calls to MB's sister. I'm missing something, I think.

For what its worth, Massapequa and Massapequa Park are two different towns, with different zip codes.