NY NY - Patrick Alford, 7, Brooklyn, 22 Jan 2010 - #2

[webrocket]

I've made my comments about the litigation and the process does explore questions and answers far beyond sound bites.

all that having been said, in my opinion only, I don't see negligence (in a legal sense) if a child suddenly bolts away from the foster mother if in fact the two of them were going to the garbage bin. negligence would be her leaving her wards home alone while running out to play bingo.

who knows what will be discovered through the litigation process. child services made statements that the foster mother had successfully cared for children for 20 years without incident. if true, then this placement would NOT be negligent from the standpoint of child services. if in fact she's had problems over the years, then maybe she was not a good choice for this child and bio mom may have a valid claim. I'm not passing judgment on that.

where I tend to get judgmental is that bio mom's voluntary conduct set off the whole chain of events and she continues to this day to have negative police interactions. at a minimum it casts her in a negative light before any possible future jury of her peers called upon to hear her negligence suit.

there are way too many foster care nightmares out there - some kids are starved to death, others are tortured or killed by foster parents. while the outcome here was tragic, based on what little we have heard and nothing known to be outright truth, taking a kid out to the dumpster is nothing. had he bolted from the apt if she left him alone while she went to the dumpster, that would be a whole different thing.

 

[JLMcKenna83]

She's suing ACS and the foster mom, too. And the city.

Thank you, all of the articles I've been reading haven't mentioned that, I am reading backwards though and I may have not gotten to it yet

I really wish they would have further investigated the foster mother. I'm not saying she did anything to Patrick, but her story changed multiple times. She was, if nothing else, irresponsible in caring for Patrick.

There were also statements made by Patrick's father saying JR knew the foster mom's phone # and they could be in cahoots. And then several articles I read stated that JR showed up at the foster home, and only one that I've read that said family just happened upon it while handing out flyers.

Yeah!!! Nothing bothers me more than this video. This "sighting". I'm not on the "Jennifer did it" side of the fence, but if the family is hiding him, wouldn't that be a good reason to say, "Nope, not Patrick" in the video? Who is this woman?!?

This is exactly what I was thinking. And honestly, how good were the videos from the ferry? I know that most of the surveillance video that I've seen on other cases the quality has been pretty carpy. And it's pretty hard to make out specific facial features. Not to mention, someone had to think the child on the ferry looked enough like Patrick to report seeing him. I really think they should have released it and asked the woman to come forward. And considering how much speculation there was about the family, LE shouldn't have just dismissed the video because the family said it wasn't him.


RSBM

 

[JLMcKenna83]

I've made my comments about the litigation and the process does explore questions and answers far beyond sound bites.

all that having been said, in my opinion only, I don't see negligence (in a legal sense) if a child suddenly bolts away from the foster mother if in fact the two of them were going to the garbage bin. negligence would be her leaving her wards home alone while running out to play bingo.

who knows what will be discovered through the litigation process. child services made statements that the foster mother had successfully cared for children for 20 years without incident. if true, then this placement would NOT be negligent from the standpoint of child services. if in fact she's had problems over the years, then maybe she was not a good choice for this child and bio mom may have a valid claim. I'm not passing judgment on that.

where I tend to get judgmental is that bio mom's voluntary conduct set off the whole chain of events and she continues to this day to have negative police interactions. at a minimum it casts her in a negative light before any possible future jury of her peers called upon to hear her negligence suit.

there are way too many foster care nightmares out there - some kids are starved to death, others are tortured or killed by foster parents. while the outcome here was tragic, based on what little we have heard and nothing known to be outright truth, taking a kid out to the dumpster is nothing. had he bolted from the apt if she left him alone while she went to the dumpster, that would be a whole different thing.

BBM, ITA. I wonder if the civil jury is able to take into account any other lawsuits the mother has filed or will file if this even gets that far. Or if her actions leading up to and after Patrick's disappearance will be considered.

 

[Fyrecat]

I was a foster child growing up and I've adopted from the foster care system. A LOT of kids are better off left at home with family intervention services then placed in foster care.
Just try googling some statistics on the futures of foster kids... These ARE NOT exact numbers, but foster kids have a 4x greater chance of suffering from PTSD then war veterans, they stand a 60% great risk of being sexually abused than children left in their homes. 50% great chance of being physically abused then kids left with their parents.... they only have a 50/50 shot of even graduation high school, 20% or more end up teenage mothers...
I will not go into details of my own situation at this time, but for my mom smacking me once when I was a kid, I sure as heck paid the price and will continue to for the rest of my life, just for the state to be in the "right".

Agreed!
Sadly, there are case that do need more, and CPS gets blamed if they don't do more and something happens....in this state, I will say that they do mostly try and put in preventative services first. But it all depends on the worker. I beleive in many cases children do better remaining in their homes, but if a worker or workers believe that there is risk, I guess they have to follow what they think best.

I know the agency I work with, they do their best to make sure that the Kids are treated well. Is it as good as their 'real' home, mostly, no. Most children want to be home. But in some cases, it can be a saner place to be if there is substance abuse going on that is causing the child to be neglected, or if there is danger or outright abuse...

I don't think it's a perfect system, no. But I think that in order for it to change for the better, more money would be needed, and that won't happen.

 

[Fyrecat]

I thought there was video of her on the phone in the hallway of the building... (maybe thats the one we're both talking about?)... (I've also read several places that there are no cameras...)

But the only videos I'm finding after searching the net are just ones talking about Patrick's mother, and some of the early coverage. I cant even find the one you're talking about to see if we are speaking of the same one.


Well anyways... I think the lawsuit is complete carp. I'm not sure if the cameras from inside the building (working or not) would really be much help. (unless they showed someone scooping him up or someone disposing of him) I think it would be pretty gutsy to snatch a child in your own apt building & dispose of him there. From what I understand, the complex has it's own "police force" and there's always people milling about.

This is what I don't understand, why isn't she suing CPS & the foster mom? They were the one's responsible for Patrick's safety... (Of course, his mother was as well, and maybe if she would have thought about her decisions prior to Patrick being removed he'd be home, happy, and healthy tonight.)

(I'm not bashing her, I'm just saying maybe she should take a long hard look in the mirror before she blames anyone for what happened, because honestly, this was all avoidable.)

This is what I don't understand... Patrick's father says the foster mom's story doesn't sound right. ("Why would she take the child to the trash compactor when he was threatening to run away") That sounds right to me. If a child is threatening to run away you want to keep an eye on them. What I don't understand is why not just use the trash chute on your own floor instead of going down to the lobby?

And then, there was video of a boy with a woman on the Staten Island ferry who fit Patrick's description, yet the family insisted that it wasn't him. Wouldn't it be reasonable to say, that it was possibly him, just to get it looked into?? (Maybe LE could have had a press release asking the woman to contact police so they could verify that it wasn't Patrick??) Seems to be a pretty big coincidence that a child fitting Patrick's description is seen on the ferry that happens to go to where his mom lives.

A word here, folks, in general, to the defense of foster parents:

For every FP you hear of that is abusive, neglectful, doesn't care, etc, there is one who cares deeply. FP in this state aren't paid all that well. Most of the FP I know do this work because they care about children, and sometimes the children they care for are very, very difficult. Imagine dealing with a child with behavioral issues (and I mean severe issues, sometimes, like destroying furniture, being violent to other children in the home) working with the child to develop some trust and then dealing with having to bring the child to the agency for visits with parents who may or may not show up, the child acting out afterward, or with natural parents who complain about everything you do, how the child is dressed, parents who may curse you out or threaten you, etc. And then all the appointments with each child you have to keep, in addition to working (yes, many FP hold down jobs, too!) and running a household.

Being a Foster Parent isn't easy. I watch many of them deal with situations I wouldn't want to deal with, and do it well. When FPs are 'sued' or when they are subject to Investigations, it makes it that much more difficult to find good Foster Parents.

I don't know what happened with this Foster Parent. I can say that 'Natural' parents do have a way of getting addresses, and I wouldn't be surprised of this was the case.

Anyway, off my soapbox....

JMO

 

[SheWhoMustNotBeNamed]

Some links for reference, that I mentioned I would find earlier.


Regarding Patrick being seen on the surveillance video: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/201...issing_city_cops_mystified.html#ixzz18Ev2YGiI

Cops also analyzed 81 surveillance videos, including one from the Staten Island Ferry terminal in Manhattan that showed a boy fitting Patrick's description being led away by a woman. His family says it's not him. ​

Regarding biomom suing the apartment complex, ACS, foster mom, and the city: http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=7720757

Jennifer Rodriguez is now filing a federal lawsuit against New York City, the Administration for Children's Services, a foster mother, and the apartment complex on behalf of her son Patrick, in her latest desperate effort to find him.

​

 

[SheWhoMustNotBeNamed]

had he bolted from the apt if she left him alone while she went to the dumpster, that would be a whole different thing.

Respectfully snipped.

What if she let him go to take out the trash alone? Pretty much the same as leaving him alone in the apartment while taking out the trash, right? And, IMO, I believe the 4-year-old.

http://blog.silive.com/around_the_b...and_kin_keep_the_faith_for_young_patrick.html

(Ms. Moran is the foster mother. JA is Patrick's sister.)

Ms. Moran told police she and Patrick were taking trash downstairs to the lobby of her building. She said she took a call on her cell phone and ... poof, Patrick was gone.

That’s her story.

Little JA had her own version: She said her brother took out the trash that night.

Why believe a 4-year-old over an adult? Because it doesn’t make sense for Ms. Moran to lug her trash down 11 flights to a bin in the lobby when a trash outlet was located next to her apartment. She had only to walk a couple of feet outside her door and toss it down the chute.

 

[CHICANA]

I was a foster child growing up and I've adopted from the foster care system. A LOT of kids are better off left at home with family intervention services then placed in foster care.
Just try googling some statistics on the futures of foster kids... These ARE NOT exact numbers, but foster kids have a 4x greater chance of suffering from PTSD then war veterans, they stand a 60% great risk of being sexually abused than children left in their homes. 50% great chance of being physically abused then kids left with their parents.... they only have a 50/50 shot of even graduation high school, 20% or more end up teenage mothers...
I will not go into details of my own situation at this time, but for my mom smacking me once when I was a kid, I sure as heck paid the price and will continue to for the rest of my life, just for the state to be in the "right".

I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I agree with everything you said. I don't know why I'm still surprised by their lack of common sense.
All your mom did was smack you once ? Maybe leave a couple dirty dishes in the sink ?

 

[CHICANA]

A word here, folks, in general, to the defense of foster parents:

For every FP you hear of that is abusive, neglectful, doesn't care, etc, there is one who cares deeply. FP in this state aren't paid all that well. Most of the FP I know do this work because they care about children, and sometimes the children they care for are very, very difficult. Imagine dealing with a child with behavioral issues (and I mean severe issues, sometimes, like destroying furniture, being violent to other children in the home) working with the child to develop some trust and then dealing with having to bring the child to the agency for visits with parents who may or may not show up, the child acting out afterward, or with natural parents who complain about everything you do, how the child is dressed, parents who may curse you out or threaten you, etc. And then all the appointments with each child you have to keep, in addition to working (yes, many FP hold down jobs, too!) and running a household.

Being a Foster Parent isn't easy. I watch many of them deal with situations I wouldn't want to deal with, and do it well. When FPs are 'sued' or when they are subject to Investigations, it makes it that much more difficult to find good Foster Parents.

I don't know what happened with this Foster Parent. I can say that 'Natural' parents do have a way of getting addresses, and I wouldn't be surprised of this was the case.

Anyway, off my soapbox....

JMO

So 50% of foster parents are abusive, neglectful or don't care ?
That's more than I thought. To me, it seems that the state expects way more of real parents than foster parents. If real parents don't deal with their disruptive children the way the state deems appropriate, they take them away. If a foster parent messes up, it's because the kid has 'behavioral' problems.
IMO, many foster kids act out, destroy things and are violent because they are mad that they've been forced to live with total strangers with no biological connection to them. They want to go home. Most kids in foster care are put on mind altering drugs (that aren't even approved for use in children) which can cause all kinds of side effects, including behavioral issues.

 

[CHICANA]

Awww come on Jennifer. You're making it really hard for me to stick up for you.


Mother of missing Staten Island boy arrested for knife threat

A Staten Island mother whose young son disappeared earlier this year and has yet to be found has been arrested for threatening a friend with a kitchen knife, authorities said.

“You’re not getting you’re f---ing money back,” an enraged Jennifer Rodriguez shouted at the victim when he showed up at her New Brighton house yesterday at 7:55 p.m. looking for his lost wallet, according to court papers.

Rodriquez, 23, then menacingly waved the blade at the man, who had slept over the night before, sources said. It’s unknown if the two are romantically involved, sources added.

The woman told cops she only grabbed the knife because she was afraid, sources said.

[snip]

Rodriguez's arraignment was delayed because she was taken to Richmond University Medical Center with an undisclosed ailment, according to the DA's spokesman. She was later transferred to Emhurst Medical Center in Queens.

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/...n_island_8HcO8aNMFMzh3S5VrPY1LK#ixzz189iQHtTA​

​

​

IDK, this sets my hinky meter off. Why did he wait all day to go get his wallet ? Maybe he lost it and was threatening her because he thought she had it. He shows up at her house and she goes to jail ? I'd love to know if there are any other witnesses, but I can't find anything showing the man even exists. The spelling of his last name has to be wrong or else he just came to America.
I think Jennifer has made a lot of people really mad with her lawsuits.

 

[Kat]

I didn't see the name of the man in the article. I must really need my eyes retested or I'm really having probs still with concentration from quit smoking (I'm being serious not sassy at all).

 

[SheWhoMustNotBeNamed]

I didn't see the name of the man in the article. I must really need my eyes retested or I'm really having probs still with concentration from quit smoking (I'm being serious not sassy at all).

It wasn't in the article I posted, Kat. But it was in a different one. http://www.ksla.com/Global/story.asp?S=13682092

But I'm honestly not sure what his last name has to do with anything?

 

[webrocket]

the man's name is in here and it looks Albanian to me:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...trick_alford_arrested_for_pulling_knife_.html

but as SWMNBN asked, what does his nationality have to do with anything?

the whole scene raises eyebrows with me like 1. how did they meet? 2. what was the attraction? 3. a WALLET???? but I won't say any more.

 

[Fyrecat]

So 50% of foster parents are abusive, neglectful or don't care ?
That's more than I thought. To me, it seems that the state expects way more of real parents than foster parents. If real parents don't deal with their disruptive children the way the state deems appropriate, they take them away. If a foster parent messes up, it's because the kid has 'behavioral' problems.
IMO, many foster kids act out, destroy things and are violent because they are mad that they've been forced to live with total strangers with no biological connection to them. They want to go home. Most kids in foster care are put on mind altering drugs (that aren't even approved for use in children) which can cause all kinds of side effects, including behavioral issues.

While it's true that at times children may be removed prematurely, when other services could have prevented this, I believe it's due to the cases where children weren't removed and a tragedy happens that now prompts Child Protective services to step in and remove children faster.

Foster parents aren't perfect, but they go through strict background checks, are subjected to intense scrutiny and their household members all have to undergo fingerprinting and background checks before they can be foster parents in many states.

Foster parents in this state are really looked at. I've seen a drop in foster parents, sadly.

Sorry, I disagree with you one some of the issues revolving around medication. While it's true that sometimes children 'act out' around being removed, and I agree with that, there are many cases where children have issues that are severe before they are placed in Foster Care. Sadly, in many cases these kids have suffered neglect, mistreatment, or a parent may not have known what to do with a child with severe issues.....children that come after other people with knives, children who abuse pets, children who defecate in corners, children who take off their clothes in public places.....

there is something wrong there, that many Foster Parents didn't count on dealing with.

If a parent has a child placed in care in many states, there are services a parent needs to complete in order to reuinte with a child. The parent may have to go to counseling, or seek treatment for mental health issues or drugs. They may have to participate in educational services, and visit regularly with their children. They have to take steps to change the situation that led to the child being removed. I think in many cases, it's difficult for a person to change, and to feel motivated to change, and feel they needed to change in the first place. A parent who has a child, has a responsiblity to that child. A foster parent chooses to accept the responsiblity and more when they become a foster parent.

 

[SheWhoMustNotBeNamed]

Another thing I wonder about is why Jennifer went to the hospital? Did she have *reason* to be frightened of this guy? Maybe she was telling the truth about being scared of him. She spent at least two days in the hospital (as of Tuesday). Or was she just trying to avoid arraignment?

 

[JLMcKenna83]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/12/14/2010-12-14_jennifer_rodriguez_mom_of_missing_boy_patrick_alford_arrested_for_pulling_knife_.html
snip..

Rodriguez, 23, was charged with menacing, criminal possession of a weapon and harassment, according to a spokesman for the Staten Island District Attorney.

.....

She was busted earlier this year for aggravated harassment after she attacked a romantic rival. She was also arrested a year ago for shoplifting, and Patrick was taken from her custody after she admitted to a drug problem.

I'm not so sure if she's afraid of anyone. She sounds like the aggressor in several of her arrests. I also want to know who reported hearing her screaming about not getting the money back. (Whether it was the man who she allegedly stole it from or if it was reported by someone who overheard the argument.) And I want to know who called 911, whether it was JR, the "BF", or a third party.


eta: interesting comment under the article posted yesterday (12/15) at 9am.

 

[webrocket]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/12/14/2010-12-14_jennifer_rodriguez_mom_of_missing_boy_patrick_alford_arrested_for_pulling_knife_.html
snip..

eta: interesting comment under the article posted yesterday (12/15) at 9am.

if I were her lawyer, I'd be trying to find out who posted that comment and sue the person for libel, slander etc.

if the info is true, then this person is in the know and should have reported that to LE a long time ago.

 

[JLMcKenna83]

if I were her lawyer, I'd be trying to find out who posted that comment and sue the person for libel, slander etc.

if the info is true, then this person is in the know and should have reported that to LE a long time ago.

Could they even do that? (sue?) I mean taking into consideration the last line of the comment. Isn't that sort of what we do here? (without the bashing?) To me it sounds like someone stated two possible theories.

And I agree that if that person does know what's stated then they should have gone to LE and told them. I wonder if that's even a theory that LE explored.

 

[webrocket]

Could they even do that? (sue?) I mean taking into consideration the last line of the comment. Isn't that sort of what we do here? (without the bashing?) To me it sounds like someone stated two possible theories.

And I agree that if that person does know what's stated then they should have gone to LE and told them. I wonder if that's even a theory that LE explored.

one of the biggest no-no's to do is to accuse any living person by name of a crime especially if the person making the statement has no proof to back up the claim. I'd be shocked if it is not a term of service here on Websleuths.

if the news says Jane Doe or John Roe is wanted by LE for a crime or has been indicted, then the accusation by a member of the public means nothing as it is repeating what has been said by LE.

if a victims's mother says "I know XXXX killed my daughter" there is no harm in attributing that statement to HER. but to repeat it as fact is a problem.

I remember a thread here about a missing Native American kid. on a news website, someone claiming to be the kid's "Auntie" accused the boy's father of very serious crimes of moral turpitude. Someone here said look at that comment (without repeating it) and I saw it. I made the comment here, "look quickly people, it won't last long" and it was removed by the host like 10 mins later.

I'm surprised that comment about bio mom has stayed on the site for a full day and I mean the part about what she supposedly did to Patrick. as for her involvment in any disappearance, LE already suspected at first she had some hand in it, so public commentary on what was reported is not the same as making a statement of fact that she did take him and hide him.

 

[JLMcKenna83]

The statement still sounds like just theories to me. We just may be interpreting them differently.

The only difference I see is that they didn't start their comment with "I think", "My theory", "I believe", and "What if". However, at the end of the comment is something sort of along those lines.

I'm not surprised the comment has stayed there, and I wouldn't be surprised if her lawyer doesn't/never sees it unless someone points him to it. When I lived in NYC, most of the people I saw were carrying a print edition of the paper, which, if her lawyer does read the article, my bet would be it would be from the print edition and not the online edition where the comments are.