NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[GoingByMyGut]

I have considered this possibility, too-but after speaking to him, I think this is not the case. I could be wrong, though, as I have nothing but intuition on which to base this notion. It would burn me up to find this out, after all of the hoops we've all jumped through. This possibilty will persist if nothing else ever surfaces.

BBM: I have spoken to him also. I would like to believe he is an upright person, but to be candid, he leaves me with many blanks not filled in. My sense is that he is not a very outgoing person -- that is one way of rationalizing his lack of participation here (last on Sept. 6). But that's me filling in the blanks. His lack of interaction with us, in the face of his presumed goal, raises questions, IMO. I prefer not to leap to any conclusions on his behalf -- either way -- as he's given us precious little to base our opinions on. IMO, we have to be willing to look at all possibilities.

For me, all bets are still open, including SL not wanting to be found. I remain open to all evidence that contradicts or affirms any of the options, though sadly, I see little chance of anything new coming forth as a result of our efforts at this point -- particularly with the apparent and unexplained resistance of LE. I put more faith in the future -- in something turning up as a result of the passing of time and/or random chance. I'm not trying to be pessimistic. These new thoughts simply reinforce for me the need to be cautious. JMO

 

[rosemadderlake]

BBM: I have spoken to him also. I would like to believe he is an upright person, but to be candid, he leaves me with many blanks not filled in. My sense is that he is not a very outgoing person -- that is one way of rationalizing his lack of participation here (last on Sept. 6). But that's me filling in the blanks. His lack of interaction with us, in the face of his presumed goal, raises questions, IMO. I prefer not to leap to any conclusions on his behalf -- either way -- as he's given us precious little to base our opinions on. IMO, we have to be willing to look at all possibilities.

For me, all bets are still open, including SL not wanting to be found. I remain open to all evidence that contradicts or affirms any of the options, though sadly, I see little chance of anything new coming forth as a result of our efforts at this point -- particularly with the apparent and unexplained resistance of LE. I put more faith in the future -- in something turning up as a result of the passing of time and/or random chance. I'm not trying to be pessimistic. These new thoughts simply reinforce for me the need to be cautious. JMO

bbms-
Imo -There might be a trust issue and a certain uncertainty about what happened if SL's disappearance is equally mysterious on both public forum and inner circle, but the opportunity to investigate all the possibilities (think tank) of her disappearance and confirm a direction, or illuminate something missed, or discuss something LE is not discussing is being missed, too. It is the "lack of interaction with us, in the face of his presumed goal, raises questions" -And, that makes me wonder what was the goal? (really good point GBMG)

Something about Sylvia's disappearance is more complex than we know. A detail could unravel the mystery. And someone knows that detail. LE, inner circle, are being cautious, too. If something random did not happen to her, I wouldn't be shocked if she were found alive, 'not wanting to be found'. -Imo

 

[Jmoose]

Bbms: I have worried that we are spreading untruths. Imo: Try as we might, no supporting evidence has confirmed SL is anything other than missing. I see the timing of the cases 1975 & 2010 as problematic. What changed after 35 years? And do we have the full story?

Were we just the megaphone for shining a light on the BF/F? -I have wondered if the answers from LE are unacceptable to some, and this forum and the internet publicity is a bit like the 'wild west response' to an ongoing frustration with LE.

If Sylvia is suspected to be alive - I have to wonder why the crime radio interview, and WS (10,000 posts), and SI advance article? Are they shining a light because they think the BF/F knows where she is? That's why he has the ring? -Kept her glasses? -And the big radio silence?

-Seems only after certain information was disclosed - all who knew her went quiet...

I have also worried about tossing around incorrect information, especially something that could harm somebody's reputation. At the very beginning, back in the Spring, when we all came here, I had said that some of this was going to have to be discussed privately, but that sort of misses the whole point of this
Website. I think we have been remarkably civil, and careful (at least some of us) not to indict someone without evidence-partly because it's against the terms of service, but mostly because it just isn't right. You guys should see what is going on over at the Madeleine McCann thread, and any of those people can make their way here. I really would like our VIs to come back and give us something else to work with, but that doesn't seem likely at this point.

Just for the sake of argument, I don't think BF/F knows Sylvia is alive and well, and is helping her by hiding that info from her brother-that is the one thing I am 99% sure about. As far as anything else goes, nothing would surprise me.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I have also worried about tossing around incorrect information, especially something that could harm somebody's reputation. At the very beginning, back in the Spring, when we all came here, I had said that some of this was going to have to be discussed privately, but that sort of misses the whole point of this Website. I think we have been remarkably civil, and careful (at least some of us) not to indict someone without evidence-partly because it's against the terms of service, but mostly because it just isn't right. You guys should see what is going on over at the Madeleine McCann thread, and any of those people can make their way here. I really would like our VIs to come back and give us something else to work with, but that doesn't seem likely at this point.

Just for the sake of argument, I don't think BF/F knows Sylvia is alive and well, and is helping her by hiding that info from her brother-that is the one thing I am 99% sure about. As far as anything else goes, nothing would surprise me.

BBM: FWIW, I agree.

 

[alliemay]

I felt early on that things were being kept from us. I was surprised when we were given the info about the abortion. Even then it took several questions to get that info. I can bet that it is known what the fight at the party was about AND what words were said, but as usual this info is being kept from us. I would also bet that Eva kept records, (who the PI was, what the ADA found out, etc ), she may have even written notes in German. I have felt that unless we were pointing the finger at the BF/F there was not much communication with the VI's, it seemed like no other possibilities wanted to be explored, (random abduction, serial killer's, navy BF). It's not for lack of people on here wanting to do more, this thread would collecting dust if it were not for the one's on here trying to learn more. I really hope we haven't been "duped".

 

[epiphany]

It was Staten Island, NY circa 1975, not Manhattan, Kansas.

At what year do you say to hell with her future job prospects, post grad education and reputation...Where is our daughter?

In 1980, 1981, 1982?

Very curious, IMO, when Sylvia going missing is publicized. Argument may have been with the BF/F, but perhaps over family matters.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I have also worried about tossing around incorrect information, especially something that could harm somebody's reputation. At the very beginning, back in the Spring, when we all came here, I had said that some of this was going to have to be discussed privately, but that sort of misses the whole point of this
Website. I think we have been remarkably civil, and careful (at least some of us) not to indict someone without evidence-partly because it's against the terms of service, but mostly because it just isn't right. You guys should see what is going on over at the Madeleine McCann thread, and any of those people can make their way here. I really would like our VIs to come back and give us something else to work with, but that doesn't seem likely at this point.

Just for the sake of argument, I don't think BF/F knows Sylvia is alive and well, and is helping her by hiding that info from her brother-that is the one thing I am 99% sure about. As far as anything else goes, nothing would surprise me.

Bbm- I have stopped by the Mad McCane thread, and omg, they are mod-admonished every other day over there! LOL... Ad-mod ished! :truce:

Bbm: What was it about their relationship, or circumstances that made him so arrogant after her disappearance? -Because the perception is that in cutting off ties with her family, he is hiding something. The feelings about what some believe (believed) happened to Sylvia, have recently been given a voice, but from LE's perspective, they would have needed something to go on in 1975. --Perhaps some different perceptions within her family is part of what "ripped my family apart" as her brother said in the SI article. He wants answers. Did EL shield her son to protect him from his own feelings of disillusionment and anger as the days rolled into years with no answers? Yes, she may have. But she must have had her doubts, and though she may have never acted on them, there is an impetus to do that now that she has passed on.

My question is: do we have accurate information, or an interpretation? There was a big push to get some kind of ball rolling on Sylvia but maybe, after all that, people aren't ready for an inquiry with further details? I hope our VIs remain open and know that while it must seem freaky to see yourself, family and connections referred to in sleuthing code and imo's - it could further Sylvia's cause to view all of it (yourself) in the third person. There are some valid questions issued to all parties. -And, the minds at work on this thread are smart, and at the ready (imo).

-As for Sylvia, one thing I am 99% sure about: families back then were in the dark regarding certain aspects of our lives at 22 years old, whether they were in the experimental (college crowd) in the '70's, or not. While it may be accurate that Sylvia was conservative, not a big traveler, and limited to the radius of her life on Staten Island, I think she was an experienced young woman on many levels. What were her true vulnerabilities, strengths, weaknesses, and desires? And, if she did not disappear due to a random tragic event, what would cause her to flip her switch, and what would precipitate the argument? What would make her take flight? -Because having a fight with your BF/F, and storming out of a car happens every day, but not everyone disappears. What makes this day different than the rest?

 

[Jmoose]

Bbm- I have stopped by the Mad McCane thread, and omg, they are mod-admonished every other day over there! LOL... Ad-mod ished! :truce:


I got a time-out over there for "mocking" someone else!

 

[Jmoose]

Bbm- I have stopped by the Mad McCane thread, and omg, they are mod-admonished every other day over there! LOL... Ad-mod ished! :truce:

Bbm: What was it about their relationship, or circumstances that made him so arrogant after her disappearance? -Because the perception is that in cutting off ties with her family, he is hiding something. The feelings about what some believe (believed) happened to Sylvia, have recently been given a voice, but from LE's perspective, they would have needed something to go on in 1975. --Perhaps some different perceptions within her family is part of what "ripped my family apart" as her brother said in the SI article. He wants answers. Did EL shield her son to protect him from his own feelings of disillusionment and anger as the days rolled into years with no answers? Yes, she may have. But she must have had her doubts, and though she may have never acted on them, there is an impetus to do that now that she has passed on.

My question is: do we have accurate information, or an interpretation? There was a big push to get some kind of ball rolling on Sylvia but maybe, after all that, people aren't ready for an inquiry with further details? I hope our VIs remain open and know that while it must seem freaky to see yourself, family and connections referred to in sleuthing code and imo's - it could further Sylvia's cause to view all of it (yourself) in the third person. There are some valid questions issued to all parties. -And, the minds at work on this thread are smart, and at the ready (imo).

-As for Sylvia, one thing I am 99% sure about: families back then were in the dark regarding certain aspects of our lives at 22 years old, whether they were in the experimental (college crowd) in the '70's, or not. While it may be accurate that Sylvia was conservative, not a big traveler, and limited to the radius of her life on Staten Island, I think she was an experienced young woman on many levels. What were her true vulnerabilities, strengths, weaknesses, and desires? And, if she did not disappear due to a random tragic event, what would cause her to flip her switch, and what would precipitate the argument? What would make her take flight? -Because having a fight with your BF/F, and storming out of a car happens every day, but not everyone disappears. What makes this day different than the rest?

Hard for me to get a fix on what I truly think happened here-I don't know if the actions of Sylvia's family, especially her mother, reflect the times (reluctance to be at odds with what the police are telling them), or maybe fear of something to do with BF/F, or even an inability to confront the possibilty that their daughter and sister could be dead. Would it be more difficult to contemplate that your daughter might want or need to separate herself forever from her family and never let them know that she is alive? For me, it might, but maybe not for someone else.

I do think that people get away with all kinds of crimes, even when they are not carefully planned-there are lots of women who have disappeared without a trace, who are unlikely to ever be found. I think it might be possible that Eva took the position that she did (that Sylvia was alive somewhere else) to protect her son from the trouble he could get into messing with the BF/F. If one child was gone, I wouldn't want my only other child to get arrested, for example, pursuing some answers

 

[GoingByMyGut]

It was Staten Island, NY circa 1975, not Manhattan, Kansas.

At what year do you say to hell with her future job prospects, post grad education and reputation...Where is our daughter?

In 1980, 1981, 1982?

Very curious, IMO, when Sylvia going missing is publicized. Argument may have been with the BF/F, but perhaps over family matters.

Hi, Epiph

BBM: I think you're suggesting, and it makes sense to me too, that for some reason, EL would not have pursued this course, but her death allowed her son to strike out in his own direction. Re a possible reason EL would not have pursued this course: Maybe she knew that because of whatever was going on in SL's life, SL might need to do this. Maybe she understood, even though the truth crushed her.

What if two things are true? -- this AND SL meeting a random fate that night?

Maybe EL never expected SL to have to stay away forever. Random things don't happen in only perfect circumstances. Maybe, depending on what SL's reasons were (I don't think the "what" matters as all possible reasons drill down the same way), EL expected SL would be able to return after someone died -- or when SL felt old enough/safe enough to deal with whatever had happened. Maybe it was only 35 years after SL disappeared that the question became, did something else happen that we don't know about? That would certainly explain why how much time could pass without anyone pushing for an investigation.

Can you or anyone else think of other reasons for only beginning to publicize SL's disappearance in 2010?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I felt early on that things were being kept from us. I was surprised when we were given the info about the abortion. Even then it took several questions to get that info. I can bet that it is known what the fight at the party was about AND what words were said, but as usual this info is being kept from us. I would also bet that Eva kept records, (who the PI was, what the ADA found out, etc ), she may have even written notes in German. I have felt that unless we were pointing the finger at the BF/F there was not much communication with the VI's, it seemed like no other possibilities wanted to be explored, (random abduction, serial killer's, navy BF). It's not for lack of people on here wanting to do more, this thread would collecting dust if it were not for the one's on here trying to learn more. I really hope we haven't been "duped".

BBM1: I agree with this 100% and the loss (or coverup?) of these records kills me.

BBM2: Yes, the direction has always been precise. We weren't here to help in an open-minded way, but to support a foregone conclusion. And from where we sit, there is not enough evidence (that has been shared with us, anyway) to support that foregone conclusion.

And that foregone conclusion has a vengeful element. On the one hand, I can understand how you might feel that way if you had good reason to believe someone got away with murdering your sister. But on the other hand, if it were my sister, I'd want to know what actually happened, whether it fit my imagined scenario or not. What does it say when a person is more inclined to believe what they want to believe? I am not judging, but wondering how to move from this -- one of the few things we know about our VIs -- to the possibility of SL not wanting to be found.

I don't want to speculate too far about a particular person, because there's too much we don't know. But when I think, for instance, about the range of reasons people have for wanting to find people who've gone into witness protection, I see possibilities that we might not want to believe, but exist.

 

[alliemay]

Hi, Epiph

BBM: I think you're suggesting, and it makes sense to me too, that for some reason, EL would not have pursued this course, but her death allowed her son to strike out in his own direction. Re a possible reason EL would not have pursued this course: Maybe she knew that because of whatever was going on in SL's life, SL might need to do this. Maybe she understood, even though the truth crushed her.

What if two things are true? -- this AND SL meeting a random fate that night?

Maybe EL never expected SL to have to stay away forever. Random things don't happen in only perfect circumstances. Maybe, depending on what SL's reasons were (I don't think the "what" matters as all possible reasons drill down the same way), EL expected SL would be able to return after someone died -- or when SL felt old enough/safe enough to deal with whatever had happened. Maybe it was only 35 years after SL disappeared that the question became, did something else happen that we don't know about? That would certainly explain why how much time could pass without anyone pushing for an investigation.

Can you or anyone else think of other reasons for only beginning to publicize SL's disappearance in 2010?

I am completely guessing here....but in the beginning, when we were asking questions about the father and talking about the fact that there had been a big fight at the party. I remember the "G" saying something like, don't even go down that road of blaming the father. So tell me....who had made statement's blaming the father? Was it EL? Did the brother overhear arguments where EL blamed the father? Was this part of what tore the family apart. EL, I'm sure didn't know what to think at that time. Did she feel that her husband had pushed away their daughter? She had the BF/F and the friend followed....So, if it were me, and I did not agree with my mother's views on what had happened, I might just wait till she passed away. Again like I said just guessing here because we are left in the dark and not told everything. Very frustrating.

 

[Jmoose]

BBM1:
I don't want to speculate too far about a particular person, because there's too much we don't know. But when I think, for instance, about the range of reasons people have for wanting to find people who've gone into witness protection, I see possibilities that we might not want to believe, but exist.

I am not certain where you are going here-95% of people in WP are criminals themselves, and 100% of them are witnesses for the prosecution of bigger criminals. I don't know if this would be true of Sylvia. Unofficially leaving town to avoid trouble, maybe. How easy was it back in the 70's to get a new SS number, though? Changing your name before the existence of SS numbers was easy-my grandfather changed his last name and never did it legally. But I imagine that there would be some sort of paper trail, even if a woman just changed it by marrying. How could someone do this without some official assistance? Is it just a really big country, and so easy to hide? What if, early on, you ran into someone you knew in an airport? That has happened to me several times. My husband and I have seen people we know in all kinds of places across the country. It wouldn't likely be relevant now because it's been 38 years, and hardly anyone is recognizable after that time-but if I was really hiding, I would be concerned.

 

[Jmoose]

bbms-
Imo -There might be a trust issue and a certain uncertainty about what happened if SL's disappearance is equally mysterious on both public forum and inner circle, but the opportunity to investigate all the possibilities (think tank) of her disappearance and confirm a direction, or illuminate something missed, or discuss something LE is not discussing is being missed, too. It is the "lack of interaction with us, in the face of his presumed goal, raises questions" -And, that makes me wonder what was the goal? (really good point GBMG)

Something about Sylvia's disappearance is more complex than we know. A detail could unravel the mystery. And someone knows that detail. LE, inner circle, are being cautious, too. If something random did not happen to her, I wouldn't be shocked if she were found alive, 'not wanting to be found'. -Imo

I think that this is everything in Sylvia's case

 

[alliemay]

Quote Jmoose: "It wouldn't likely be relevant now because it's been 38 years, and hardly anyone is recognizable after that time-but if I was really hiding, I would be concerned."

I had wondered if an age progression photo was ever done on her, I even called and left a message but no one returned my call. I do think it's something the family has to request though. It would be interesting to see what she would look like now.

 

[Jmoose]

I am completely guessing here....but in the beginning, when we were asking questions about the father and talking about the fact that there had been a big fight at the party. I remember the "G" saying something like, don't even go down that road of blaming the father. So tell me....who had made statement's blaming the father? Was it EL? Did the brother overhear arguments where EL blamed the father? Was this part of what tore the family apart. EL, I'm sure didn't know what to think at that time. Did she feel that her husband had pushed away their daughter? She had the BF/F and the friend followed....So, if it were me, and I did not agree with my mother's views on what had happened, I might just wait till she passed away. Again like I said just guessing here because we are left in the dark and not told everything. Very frustrating.

Her brother told me that the fight with the father wasn't the catalyst-I mean, it's his opinion, because nobody can see into someone else's head, but he lived in the house, and it's all we have. Maybe the father blamed himself and that is what tore the family apart? Could be, he was never the same after Sylvia disappeared? Maybe Eva also blamed him, but her brother knew things his parents didn't (we knew lots of stuff about our siblings and their associates that our parents didn't).

Did EL have BF/F followed? I thought she had just MMQC followed?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I am not certain where you are going here-95% of people in WP are criminals themselves, and 100% of them are witnesses for the prosecution of bigger criminals. I don't know if this would be true of Sylvia. Unofficially leaving town to avoid trouble, maybe. How easy was it back in the 70's to get a new SS number, though? Changing your name before the existence of SS numbers was easy-my grandfather changed his last name and never did it legally. But I imagine that there would be some sort of paper trail, even if a woman just changed it by marrying. How could someone do this without some official assistance? Is it just a really big country, and so easy to hide? What if, early on, you ran into someone you knew in an airport? That has happened to me several times. My husband and I have seen people we know in all kinds of places across the country. It wouldn't likely be relevant now because it's been 38 years, and hardly anyone is recognizable after that time-but if I was really hiding, I would be concerned.

BBM: Not suggesting anyone in this case is involved in WP. Not sure where the "95%" comes from, but I would add "and their families." I was using it to suggest the range of emotions that can come up between those who leave and those they left behind. IOW, it's not just "longing" and "family feeling" and "lost friendship" that separate them, sometime it's more. I am not even imagining a precise scenario, just saying the feelings aren't always benign. I think it's natural to assume positive feelings motivate a party to want to reconnect with someone they lost, but there's also blame, vengeance, fear (e.g., "I don't know where this person is and they know something about me that can hurt me"), and who knows what else. Depending on why the person left, even positive motivation to reconnect may not feel positive to them. I was just letting my imagination run to illustrate how little we know.

 

[Jmoose]

Quote Jmoose: "It wouldn't likely be relevant now because it's been 38 years, and hardly anyone is recognizable after that time-but if I was really hiding, I would be concerned."

I had wondered if an age progression photo was ever done on her, I even called and left a message but no one returned my call. I do think it's something the family has to request though. It would be interesting to see what she would look like now.

You always come up with something new! Did you call someone at the Cold Case Squad, or Det. Savage? Maybe her brother can request an age progression-if she is out there, it would help. I wonder how it works if you leave your family behind and just want to be left alone-is her brother entitled to have this age progression done, since she is missing? Would LE in NYC just stall him if they knew she didn't want any contact? Obviously, if LE knows she is alive and no contact is desired, they haven't told her brother, but I wonder if they tell her that he is looking. IMO, they don't-I am actually leaning far away from this possibility, but since there are a lot of counterintuitive gaps here, it's tough to tell.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Original post TBM:

If Sylvia is suspected to be alive - I have to wonder why the crime radio interview, and WS (10,000 posts), and SI advance article? Are they shining a light because they think the BF/F knows where she is? That's why he has the ring? -Kept her glasses? -And the big radio silence?

This is WAY out there, but would SL show herself if the BF/F were on trial for her murder? Still just brainstorming ...

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Original post TBM:

Something about Sylvia's disappearance is more complex than we know.

Hands down, yes. Well said, Rose.