NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[GoingByMyGut]

I just wanted to make sure there is no misunderstanding-I do not think there was any self serving reason on Sylvia's brother's part for searching for her-he wants her back because he loves her and she is the only one left from his family-thought I should clarify

No, I didn't think you thought that. And my language was not meant to suggest that I do either. I don't know what to think, frankly. All of my speculating was meant to highlight what we don't know.

 

[Jmoose]

No, I didn't think you thought that. And my language was not meant to suggest that I do either. I don't know what to think, frankly. All of my speculating was meant to highlight what we don't know.

I think you and I were on the same page-I just re-read it and was afraid somebody else might misunderstand my take on Sylvia's brother's motives.

I keep sorting through all of the stuff we've discussed since the Spring, and wonder to myself if we will ever have an answer. There are only a couple of cases here that compel me to want to know what happened-this one, and the one I originally came here for-Kathy Shea from Tyrone Pa. So glad that we are still looking for answers here on Sylvia's thread.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Movement in a 42-year-old cold case you may have read about on WS. It's not solved, but they have a POI. I know this kind of thing gives us all hope.

 

[Jmoose]

Movement in a 42-year-old cold case you may have read about on WS. It's not solved, but they have a POI. I know this kind of thing gives us all hope.

Thank you-I feel a little better about the prospects, now-especially with the serendipitous finding of the McStay family this week, too.

 

[alliemay]

I know we have talked about the suicide angle before and ruled it out for two reason. One, you can't hide your own body. But if you jumped in the ocean, it's possible you may never be found. There may be currents that could sweep a person into an underground cave, or a body could be caught up in the wreckage of a ship "graveyard". Two, her friend said she would never do something like that.

Not saying this is what she did, but even if she didn't do it herself, I'm sure it would have been easy push someone over the edge into the water. I have been thinking about the ship graveyards in the Great Kills area wondering how long some of these ships have been abandoned there.

I don't really think she committed suicide but still you never really know. My friend of thirty-two years passed about almost two years ago. I thought I knew her well but several years ago she took a handful of pills and went to bed, her intention was to never wake up again. It hurt me to think she had not tried to call me to tell me she had these thoughts. I would have bet everything I owed to claim that my friend would never do something like this, but yet she did. She had always been strong, even though life had dealt her some things that most would not have been able to get through she had made it. Before she attempted this she had gone thought a series of things in her life, life changing things. I guess at that time I just figured she would get through it like she always did, and she had me to talk to so she would be ok, I thought.

But I was wrong. My point is sometimes we think we know everything about someone when there are times we don't.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I know we have talked about the suicide angle before and ruled it out for two reason. One, you can't hide your own body. But if you jumped in the ocean, it's possible you may never be found. There may be currents that could sweep a person into an underground cave, or a body could be caught up in the wreckage of a ship "graveyard". Two, her friend said she would never do something like that.

Not saying this is what she did, but even if she didn't do it herself, I'm sure it would have been easy push someone over the edge into the water. I have been thinking about the ship graveyards in the Great Kills area wondering how long some of these ships have been abandoned there.

I don't really think she committed suicide but still you never really know. My friend of thirty-two years passed about almost two years ago. I thought I knew her well but several years ago she took a handful of pills and went to bed, her intention was to never wake up again. It hurt me to think she had not tried to call me to tell me she had these thoughts. I would have bet everything I owed to claim that my friend would never do something like this, but yet she did. She had always been strong, even though life had dealt her some things that most would not have been able to get through she had made it. Before she attempted this she had gone thought a series of things in her life, life changing things. I guess at that time I just figured she would get through it like she always did, and she had me to talk to so she would be ok, I thought.

But I was wrong. My point is sometimes we think we know everything about someone when there are times we don't.

I agree, Skeet. With suicide, I also think it's the nature of the beast. After a suicide, people always say things like "but they were always so on top of things." Sometimes it's that we didn't really know them. But I also think it can just be that we're all human -- we have limits we don't fully understand until they're truly tested. And the cumulative impact you talk about with your friend -- that matters too, I think. In SL's case, still struggling with/grieving over the abortion decision, then on top of that, possibly some other life-changing decisions, perhaps more than one relationship falling apart? Likely or not, I have maintained, and still feel, that we cannot rule this out.

 

[Jmoose]

Like Skeet, I don't necessarily believe this is what happened to Sylvia, but I agree that everyone has a portion of themselves which is secret from others-you really can't always tell when someone is suicidal, even if you know them well. It's not possible in theory to hide your body after committing suicide, but the water is one place where your body might be hidden-the only thing is that, if it's your intent to remain hidden, you can't be sure. No way of knowing if that would be the preference of most people who commit suicide; i would think if you are sending a message to somebody, you might want to be found.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Like Skeet, I don't necessarily believe this is what happened to Sylvia, but I agree that everyone has a portion of themselves which is secret from others-you really can't always tell when someone is suicidal, even if you know them well. It's not possible in theory to hide your body after committing suicide, but the water is one place where your body might be hidden-the only thing is that, if it's your intent to remain hidden, you can't be sure. No way of knowing if that would be the preference of most people who commit suicide; i would think if you are sending a message to somebody, you might want to be found.

BBM1: I've heard it said that the pain/despair that drives people to kill themselves is so intense, that the goal is very singleminded: to put an end to the pain. I've also heard it said that people who commit suicide do it because they cannot envision a future. They are stuck in a moment of anguish that's so unbearable, killing themselves is the only "solution" they can see. It enables them to do what is unimaginable for most of us (maybe even impossible -- to inflict that degree of harm on ourselves).

Seen this way, I'm gueesing someone who kills themselves may not care or be thinking about what will happen after they're gone. I know some people care about the people they are leaving behind, and leave notes. Others (I think you once said mostly men?) ritualize their "toilette" -- bathing, then dressing the way they want to be buried. But even in these cases, I am not sure they are seeing beyond the moment of their deaths. I think this is one of the things that makes the people left behind so angry over suicide: It's an act of selfishness, seeing a way out of your own pain, while heaping tons of it on the people who care about you.

BBM2: I am not sure wanting to send a message is a motivation for suicide -- perhaps that happens more with halfhearted suicide attempt?s I know people do this -- sadly -- to manipulate people in their lives. But perhaps that's a whole nuther sickness?

No real point to make here, just reacting to the posts.

But I guess to bring it back to SL, if those closest to her couldn't see it, we sure aren't going to be able to. I can imagine it, but that's as far as I can take it.

 

[rosemadderlake]

The taking of one’s own “young, unlived life” is a different kind of mystery. (imo) In thinking of the young kids who jumped off the GW Bridge recently, particularly the students from Rutgers University, Tyler Clement in 2011, and the young woman student at the College of NJ: Paige Aiello last spring; there seemed, in both instances, to be something traumatic that was happening in their lives before what appeared to be a very spontaneous decision.

Skeet, - your remembrance makes me think of a couple of people and circumstances where I was “shocked”. It is so sad and I don’t think we are ever prepared to lose someone we love, let alone learn they have taken their life.

For Sylvia, while the circumstances of that night don’t suggest to me that there was any intent to commit suicide, I can’t tell if she was at a breaking point, or not. There is enough though, especially in knowing she was not talking to her father and a fight with her BF/F (allegedly) that leaves me wondering how she and they handled these things. I don’t know that her BF/F killed her because I don’t know if he was at his breaking point, or even capable. --Though I do believe “capable” is very subjective because when the big emotions are at play like jealousy and betrayal with anger, it can escalate to “capable” in the most unsuspecting person and/or circumstances. It is in this ‘capable’ possibility coupled with being the last known person to see her that leaves me wondering about him and their relationship.

Sylvia is described as punctual (set the clock by her), happy and in love, go with the flow, flipped her switch, before her disappearance. Her BF/F is described as ‘superior’ before her disappearance. After her disappearance, she is described as depressed (PR); he as rude and hostile (WS). And, there is no publicity before 2010. It is difficult to read a person and a situation when so much time has passed. Memories become faint. The imprint of who a person was fades. There are some contradictions in the descriptions though, that have left me with more questions than answers…

-In both scenarios, murder and suicide, there is not a trace of evidence that we know about. That leaves me with the feeling that she left town, which does not seem very plausible, except that she did indeed vanish. I remember a couple of scary experiences as a young woman, ones I didn’t see coming and was not prepared for. I realize how possible this was for Sylvia in 1975.

 

[alliemay]

http://www.wnyc.org/story/99670-the-witte-boneyard-different-kind-graveyard/

It looks like some of these abandoned ships have been in the Great Kill area since the 1930's. You know, I sometimes think of Sarah when I am on here, I am so glad her case was solved and brought us here to Sylvia. Thanks GBMG. I doubt Sarah would have been found if there had been a ton of wreckage in the canal. Sarah died in a place she was familiar with. She may not have taken that route all the time but she was familiar with the area. IF Sylvia did take the bus home, maybe she would have gone down to the shore, where she felt comfortable, she loved the water. The Great Kills jetty, the Conference House. These are places she felt comfortable at and probably many times tried to find peace at these places, when certain things started changing in her life. She was done with college, we have not been told if there were any job prospects lined up for her, or even if she applied for any jobs, and for whatever reason, even though she was engaged, no date had been set for a wedding. IF I had no job prospects, IF I had tension in my home with my parents, IF I were engaged, for me, I think I might feel compelled to set a wedding date just to have some sort of direction as to where my life was going. Hard to say unless I were put into that situation. The only way I wouldn't set a date would be if I were unsure of how I felt about someone. What if she went to the water that night to think or someone was there with her to talk about things. If by herself, could she have been crying and possibly slipped into the water. If with another could she have been pushed. I have also thought about the landfill, if she were put there I don't feel it would have been by someone who cared about her. Now they are making it a park, it would be a great idea to transport the garbage somewhere else but that idea is not feasible. I have seen pictures of large tarps covering the garbage so they can lay dirt on top of it.....It made me wonder if they are forever burying possible bodies of some of the missing children, adults and 9/11 victims. Not good thoughts.

 

[rosemadderlake]

http://www.wnyc.org/story/99670-the-witte-boneyard-different-kind-graveyard/

It looks like some of these abandoned ships have been in the Great Kill area since the 1930's. You know, I sometimes think of Sarah when I am on here, I am so glad her case was solved and brought us here to Sylvia. Thanks GBMG. I doubt Sarah would have been found if there had been a ton of wreckage in the canal. Sarah died in a place she was familiar with. She may not have taken that route all the time but she was familiar with the area. IF Sylvia did take the bus home, maybe she would have gone down to the shore, where she felt comfortable, she loved the water. The Great Kills jetty, the Conference House. These are places she felt comfortable at and probably many times tried to find peace at these places, when certain things started changing in her life. She was done with college, we have not been told if there were any job prospects lined up for her, or even if she applied for any jobs, and for whatever reason, even though she was engaged, no date had been set for a wedding. IF I had no job prospects, IF I had tension in my home with my parents, IF I were engaged, for me, I think I might feel compelled to set a wedding date just to have some sort of direction as to where my life was going. Hard to say unless I were put into that situation. The only way I wouldn't set a date would be if I were unsure of how I felt about someone. What if she went to the water that night to think or someone was there with her to talk about things. If by herself, could she have been crying and possibly slipped into the water. If with another could she have been pushed. I have also thought about the landfill, if she were put there I don't feel it would have been by someone who cared about her. Now they are making it a park, it would be a great idea to transport the garbage somewhere else but that idea is not feasible. I have seen pictures of large tarps covering the garbage so they can lay dirt on top of it.....It made me wonder if they are forever burying possible bodies of some of the missing children, adults and 9/11 victims. Not good thoughts.

Skeet, you are really keeping the thread going - great link, article and pictures - I read there are over 400 ships in the big ships graveyard on the Arthur Kill side of the island and to dismantle the shipyard would cause irreparable damage to the established ecosystem under water. So it is left abandoned. In the comments, I can just picture the kayakers milling about the wrecks in a different kind of museum.

Bbm - you bring up a strong possibility – taking that night at face value - did Sylvia go someplace familiar to think, cry, and cool off after a fight? I wonder if she saw her BF/F’s car parked in her parent’s driveway. And IF they broke up, did that set something else in motion?

Adding a weather history link - Newark is the closest link with detail. It was warm that night, 70 degrees at 10pm on September 6, 1975. It looks like it was foggy and overcast at night, with light rain showers during the day- but very little precipitation. -There was also a new moon, so it would have been very dark that night in certain areas.
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KEWR/1975/9/6/DailyHistory.html

Yes, Sylvia must have been familiar with the Great Kills Park and Marina right down the street from her house. The thing is, if she ended up in the water, wouldn’t an article of hers; purse, shoes, clothing have separated from her? Sarah Majoras was confirmed to be in the canal by her boot that surfaced and the modern technology of the bridge video which showed us her path direction that night. And wow, what a difference between 1975 and 2013 in terms of an all out search effort for a missing person.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

http://www.wnyc.org/story/99670-the-witte-boneyard-different-kind-graveyard/

It looks like some of these abandoned ships have been in the Great Kill area since the 1930's. You know, I sometimes think of Sarah when I am on here, I am so glad her case was solved and brought us here to Sylvia. Thanks GBMG. I doubt Sarah would have been found if there had been a ton of wreckage in the canal. Sarah died in a place she was familiar with. She may not have taken that route all the time but she was familiar with the area. IF Sylvia did take the bus home, maybe she would have gone down to the shore, where she felt comfortable, she loved the water. The Great Kills jetty, the Conference House. These are places she felt comfortable at and probably many times tried to find peace at these places, when certain things started changing in her life. She was done with college, we have not been told if there were any job prospects lined up for her, or even if she applied for any jobs, and for whatever reason, even though she was engaged, no date had been set for a wedding. IF I had no job prospects, IF I had tension in my home with my parents, IF I were engaged, for me, I think I might feel compelled to set a wedding date just to have some sort of direction as to where my life was going. Hard to say unless I were put into that situation. The only way I wouldn't set a date would be if I were unsure of how I felt about someone. What if she went to the water that night to think or someone was there with her to talk about things. If by herself, could she have been crying and possibly slipped into the water. If with another could she have been pushed. I have also thought about the landfill, if she were put there I don't feel it would have been by someone who cared about her. Now they are making it a park, it would be a great idea to transport the garbage somewhere else but that idea is not feasible. I have seen pictures of large tarps covering the garbage so they can lay dirt on top of it.....It made me wonder if they are forever burying possible bodies of some of the missing children, adults and 9/11 victims. Not good thoughts.

Interesting link, Skeet! I love those photos of the old boats. One thing I'm curious about: Both the article and book of photos were published in 2010. I wonder what effect Hurricane Sandy had on the boneyard in 2012? The storm seemed to rip up the coastline (as well as our lives). Wouldn't those skeletal hulks have become unsettled? I wonder if much debris, previously captured in the wrecks, washed ashore -- or out to sea -- as a result.

Yes, dark thoughts, but all dismally possible. Your comparison with Sarah is striking. When someone is alone at the hour of their death, I think we are doomed to endless speculation about their emotional state, and about how they went from one moment on land to the next submerged in the cold, murky depths.

BBM: Just one thought about this from a practical point of view. Long engagements were more the norm back then, I think. Young people often did not set a date right when they were engaged (or set one well into the future as a long-term goal) so they could first establish themselves financially. But who knows what the facts were here ...

 

[rosemadderlake]

I came across this forum at City-Data: 1970s nyc worst time any city.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/new-york-city/1049769-1970s-nyc-worst-time-any-city-9.html

I keep thinking how close NYC is to SI. How the 70’s is so long distance in my memory – but these vibrant impressions come back. The stories of others kind of bring back a collective memory though these historical sites, forums, and YouTube, that is so interesting in its way of unearthing the past! I wonder how Sylvia felt about NYC, how often she went there in her college years and engagement. To me, NYC was always the most exhilarating city on earth. To New Yorkers, living and working there in the 70’s maybe not so much. It was definitely a place you could disappear willingly, or not…

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Original post TBM:

Yes, Sylvia must have been familiar with the Great Kills Park and Marina right down the street from her house. The thing is, if she ended up in the water, wouldn’t an article of hers; purse, shoes, clothing have separated from her? Sarah Majoras was confirmed to be in the canal by her boot that surfaced and the modern technology of the bridge video which showed us her path direction that night. And wow, what a difference between 1975 and 2013 in terms of an all out search effort for a missing person.

BBM: Good point, Rose -- I guess she could have thrown it in a public trash can, but the question of the purse resonates with me. It's just a gut thing -- in spite of my openness to all possibilities -- but, I think it's buried with her somewhere.

 

[Jmoose]

Original post TBM:


BBM: Good point, Rose -- I guess she could have thrown it in a public trash can, but the question of the purse resonates with me. It's just a gut thing -- in spite of my openness to all possibilities -- but, I think it's buried with her somewhere.

I, too, think that wherever Sylvia went, so did her purse-I keep thinking about that cursed landfill. Or else the water, where MMQC and Sylvia would go when something was bothering them.

 

[Jmoose]

Did we ever determine how far, distance-wise, it would have been if Sylvia had attempted to walk home from the spot where BF/F said she got out of the car-and what the most likely route might have been?

 

[rosemadderlake]

http://www.wnyc.org/story/99670-the-witte-boneyard-different-kind-graveyard/

She was done with college, we have not been told if there were any job prospects lined up for her, or even if she applied for any jobs, and for whatever reason, even though she was engaged, no date had been set for a wedding. IF I had no job prospects, IF I had tension in my home with my parents, IF I were engaged, for me, I think I might feel compelled to set a wedding date just to have some sort of direction as to where my life was going. Hard to say unless I were put into that situation.

BBM: Just one thought about this from a practical point of view. Long engagements were more the norm back then, I think. Young people often did not set a date right when they were engaged (or set one well into the future as a long-term goal) so they could first establish themselves financially. But who knows what the facts were here ...

multi Q -TBM

bbm's It is curious - what I wonder about here is a long engagement when two 20-somethings are living with their parents. I didn't know too many who wanted to be home with their parents at 22-25 years old in 1975, for sure.

-I remember fewer traditional weddings and disillusioned parents, elopements, long engagements when living together first, rushing to the alter if she was pregnant (not looked upon with approval to be showing with child before married in the 70's),

I was surprised there was no known wedding date. Traditionally, what is it, 6 months to a year after an engagement announcement? And their engagement seemed publicly traditional - impressive ring, announcement in the newspaper, engagement party, and gifts. And then, no wedding date? I wonder what they told everyone at the engagement party?

 

[rosemadderlake]

Did we ever determine how far, distance-wise, it would have been if Sylvia had attempted to walk home from the spot where BF/F said she got out of the car-and what the most likely route might have been?

-I think it was mentioned it is about 5 or 6 miles. Not sure what the back way routes were. Through the golf course?

 

[alliemay]

I think it was that night and the next day that Eva and the friend went searching for her at the Jetty? If she had accidentally fallen or had been pushed her purse might have went in with her. We don't even know the type of purse, I remember the seventies purses I had, they were the kind you put over your head, laying the strap on one shoulder while the purse itself hung on the other side of the body. If it was a small clutch purse, depending on how far she fell the purse could have fallen on the rocks or into the water below. If Eva went to the jetty or other type of body of water looking for her, in the dark, it's possible they would have missed seeing her purse. Sylvia did not have the search party that Sarah had, consisting of friends/police/firefighters/scuba divers/or media. Even her father stayed at home in case she came back. So there was two people looking for her that night? Two ladies in the dark. No publicity means no search parties.

As far as her walking home, I think I have read some comments on the fb memory sites talking about the paths one could take through the woods to get to their destination. I've also seen comments about keg parties in the park and the cops chasing them home. Back then the drinking age was 18, so I'm guessing the cops could have sited them for public drinking? I don't think Sylvia was an avid drinker, she may have had a few once in awhile, the friend did mention something about going to the same "street parties". I've never been to one so not sure what that means. What really bugs the hell out of me is not knowing who her other friends were. Especially the ones who attended the party.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I think it was that night and the next day that Eva and the friend went searching for her at the Jetty? If she had accidentally fallen or had been pushed her purse might have went in with her. We don't even know the type of purse, I remember the seventies purses I had, they were the kind you put over your head, laying the strap on one shoulder while the purse itself hung on the other side of the body. If it was a small clutch purse, depending on how far she fell the purse could have fallen on the rocks or into the water below. If Eva went to the jetty or other type of body of water looking for her, in the dark, it's possible they would have missed seeing her purse. Sylvia did not have the search party that Sarah had, consisting of friends/police/firefighters/scuba divers/or media. Even her father stayed at home in case she came back. So there was two people looking for her that night? Two ladies in the dark. No publicity means no search parties.

As far as her walking home, I think I have read some comments on the fb memory sites talking about the paths one could take through the woods to get to their destination. I've also seen comments about keg parties in the park and the cops chasing them home. Back then the drinking age was 18, so I'm guessing the cops could have sited them for public drinking? I don't think Sylvia was an avid drinker, she may have had a few once in awhile, the friend did mention something about going to the same "street parties". I've never been to one so not sure what that means. What really bugs the hell out of me is not knowing who her other friends were. Especially the ones who attended the party.

bbm: Yes, and with no search or publicity, even if someone found the purse would they know it belonged to a missing person, and return it or turn it in?

-Wonder if anything was ever turned into the police that was missed, never identified (no wallet, but a diary) because no publicity also meant no spotlight on the case...