NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[GoingByMyGut]

Original post TBM to respond to two bits:

There was once a landfill there. “…the total land area of Great Kills Park is 488 acres. Of that total, approximately 223 acres are landfill…”
http://www.nps.gov/gate/parkmgmt/greatkillscleanup.htm

Interesting stuff, Rose. When I read the part BBM, it wasn't clear to me whether they meant "landfill" as in "garbage dump" or "landfill" as in "we reclaimed the wetlands with landfill" -- i.e., what they do to make usable/buildable land out of marsh. The term "sanitary landfill" makes me think the latter.

And the US Army Corp of Engineers does maintenance dredging and beach nourishing: next one is scheduled for fall/winter 2013-2014. Last one was 2003.

One thing about this bit, esp. in combination with the radium remediation, is that there's been a lot of exploration of the surface area and shallows, which may mean they'd have found a body if it was there ... JMO

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Wow Rose, this is a good find, in the video it even shows the street sign that has Goodall Street written on it. I was also surprised to know that Great Kills Park was once landfill. I also hadn't thought about the possibility of her trying to take a train home. Again, IF it had been something she tried to do.

BBM: I can't put my finger on the post at the moment, but I thought I remembered MMQC discounting the possibility of SL taking a train home.

That said, acc to Wikipedia, the train did run there at the time: "The Staten Island Railway was built in 1871 and was owned and operated by Baltimore and Ohio Railroad (B&O) until July 1, 1971 when the line was bought by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority."

Forgive me if this link doesn't work, I haven't done one to a map before. Look just above the marker for the solid light gray line running above Amboy Road. You'll see little blue boxes along the line with red centers -- these are train stations. The train goes on a straight trajectory from St. George Terminal at the north end of the island to Tottenville at the South end.

You can see that it wouldn't have gotten SL very close to home. She'd have wanted transportation going east to west, I think. That may be why MMQC discounted it?

 

[rosemadderlake]

On the UID that was posted a while back (reposting for reference), even though it doesn’t look like the dentals match up, when you cross reference her (NamUs & NY State), NamUs lists “a single white button was found near the body”. And Sylvia was wearing a white sweater when she disappeared. That’s a small detail.

I am posting this example for our VIs, because as Skeet points out, detailed descriptions of Sylvia's style and brand of clothing or articles, jewelry, watch, hair ornament, style of shoe (flats, platform, or heels), and purse (long or short strap) could be the keys to a match.

http://www.troopers.ny.gov/Wanted_a...w.cfm?ID=6aa9b4ad-8e04-4ece-9f18-4c9fcb642d49

https://identifyus.org/en/cases/2607

 

[GoingByMyGut]

http://library.wagner.edu/wagnerian/1974/wagnerian_05-01-74.pdf

The first time I clicked on this link I was only able to read the first couple of pages, then for some reason the rest of it was not loading. I clicked out and then back in again, and the pages I had read were grayed to the point I couldn't read them. The college paper was the Wagnerian or WAG. On page three, in the editorial section there is a letter from a student who graduated in 74 and talks about the biology trip to Bermuda. I'm just looking for any articles that might have her picture or name in it before she went missing.

Wow, Skeet! I loved that letter. It gave me a better sense somehow of what SL was doing when she went on the trip. Your persistence paid off!

BBM: I wonder if they would have put anything in about her disappearance after 9/75 ... probably not. The unknowns would probably have made them leery about how to go about it.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Original post TBM to respond to two bits:


Interesting stuff, Rose. When I read the part BBM, it wasn't clear to me whether they meant "landfill" as in "garbage dump" or "landfill" as in "we reclaimed the wetlands with landfill" -- i.e., what they do to make usable/buildable land out of marsh. The term "sanitary landfill" makes me think the latter.



One thing about this bit, esp. in combination with the radium remediation, is that there's been a lot of exploration of the surface area and shallows, which may mean they'd have found a body if it was there ... JMO

Bbm: It was an industrial landfill and illegal toxic waste dump site -
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=7368908

ETA - Oops! Wrong landfill! I had the link somewhere - will post when I find it!!!
It is all quite shocking what they did to the land on this island -

Bbm: I read somewhere that the Army Corp of Engineers have found bodies in every water way in NY. I am not surprised. But if a body sinks and gets lodged in wreckage 25 feet down I am not sure what would free it to surface.

BBM: Adding Great Kills Park Landfill history:
"A section of Great Kills Park was used as a city landfill until the 1940s. It has been speculated that a source of radiation was from remnants of old industrial machinery dumped in the park before the landfill section closed".
http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2013/09/nps_official_radiation_amount.html

 

[rosemadderlake]

I came across this photographer's portrait of the wrecks in the boatyard after reading Skeet's post -

http://shaunoboyle.photoshelter.com/#!/index/G0000nvLhs57vUko/1

There must be an enormous collection of wreckage at the bottom of all the waters and waterways around NY...

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Original post TBM:

BBM: Adding Great Kills Park Landfill history:
"A section of Great Kills Park was used as a city landfill until the 1940s. It has been speculated that a source of radiation was from remnants of old industrial machinery dumped in the park before the landfill section closed".
http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2013/09/nps_official_radiation_amount.html

Thanks, Rose. That's crazy -- closed in 1940, so a separate history from the other landfills on the island, but a SuperFund site. They must have felt quite safe filling it in and opening those areas for recreation when they did. I wonder if there has been any followup on the health of the children who played ball there. I have no idea what the effects of gamma radiation are (except of course on "man in the moon marigolds" )

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Original post TBM:

Bbm: I read somewhere that the Army Corp of Engineers have found bodies in every water way in NY. I am not surprised. But if a body sinks and gets lodged in wreckage 25 feet down I am not sure what would free it to surface.

Interesting re the finding of bodies. The first dredging that might have discovered her would have been much closer to the time of her disappearance. (As per your earlier post -- "next one is scheduled for fall/winter 2013-2014. Last one was 2003." -- does that mean they do them every 10 years? If so, there might have been one in 1983.) But I have no idea what's possible. Could a body get "lodged in wreckage 25 feet down"? That's deep. I also have no idea how the dredging of that kind of area would work -- I mean, because the water has the wide open sea behind it. The Army Corp of Engineers dredged the canal here. They closed locks and installed these plastic sheets on pylons to hold back the water, then did multiple passes with a steam shovel. I think they removed about 3-4 feet of sediment along the entire length, if memory serves. It was during the canal's 150th anniversary in the mid-1980s. I think there's some chance that if she was there, they might have found her, but who knows.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Original post TBM:


Interesting re the finding of bodies. The first dredging that might have discovered her would have been much closer to the time of her disappearance. (As per your earlier post -- "next one is scheduled for fall/winter 2013-2014. Last one was 2003." -- does that mean they do them every 10 years? If so, there might have been one in 1983.) But I have no idea what's possible. Could a body get "lodged in wreckage 25 feet down"? That's deep. I also have no idea how the dredging of that kind of area would work -- I mean, because the water has the wide open sea behind it. The Army Corp of Engineers dredged the canal here. They closed locks and installed these plastic sheets on pylons to hold back the water, then did multiple passes with a steam shovel. I think they removed about 3-4 feet of sediment along the entire length, if memory serves. It was during the canal's 150th anniversary in the mid-1980s. I think there's some chance that if she was there, they might have found her, but who knows.

The harbor is really deep in certain areas and there must be sunken wrecks on the bottom. Not sure if the water stays still in the deeper levels either. A storm like Sandy comes along and could well have disturbed everything shallow and deep. The dredging is to open up the entrance as boats cannot come and go in low tide. I read that this dredging (2013-2014) is overdue.

Bbm: I remember the summer of dredging the canal in the mid-80's. I also found it interesting to learn about the different speeds of currents, shallow and deep in the canal on SM's thread.

 

[alliemay]

The harbor is really deep in certain areas and there must be sunken wrecks on the bottom. Not sure if the water stays still in the deeper levels either. A storm like Sandy comes along and could well have disturbed everything shallow and deep. The dredging is to open up the entrance as boats cannot come and go in low tide. I read that this dredging (2013-2014) is overdue.

Bbm: I remember the summer of dredging the canal in the mid-80's. I also found it interesting to learn about the different speeds of currents, shallow and deep in the canal on SM's thread.

It will be interesting to see what what they find, especially after Sandy.

 

[Jmoose]

On the UID that was posted a while back (reposting for reference), even though it doesn’t look like the dentals match up, when you cross reference her (NamUs & NY State), NamUs lists “a single white button was found near the body”. And Sylvia was wearing a white sweater when she disappeared. That’s a small detail.

I am posting this example for our VIs, because as Skeet points out, detailed descriptions of Sylvia's style and brand of clothing or articles, jewelry, watch, hair ornament, style of shoe (flats, platform, or heels), and purse (long or short strap) could be the keys to a match.

http://www.troopers.ny.gov/Wanted_a...w.cfm?ID=6aa9b4ad-8e04-4ece-9f18-4c9fcb642d49

https://identifyus.org/en/cases/2607

This UID was submitted as a possible match months ago, just in case-even though the dentals didn't really match. As you all have said, more information = more helpful. Not sure how Sylvia'd get all the way to Irondequoit, but you never know.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody -- and Happy Hanukkah to anyone celebrating that too -- JIC the holiday weekend takes us all away for a little while

:turkey:

:gathering:

 

[Jmoose]

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody -- and Happy Hanukkah to anyone celebrating that too -- JIC the holiday weekend takes us all away for a little while

:turkey:

:gathering:

Thanks-and Happy Thanksgiving to you, too-and everyone else here. We are traveling, as we always do, with kids, dogs and pies. I bet my in-laws can't wait 'til we get there with our traveling circus!

 

[Dushi]

Happy Thanksgiving and Happy Hanukkah

Counting down the days to Xmas on the beach

 

[rosemadderlake]

There's nothing like holidays on the beach... Fabulous! I celebrated a couple of Caribbean Christmases back in the '90s... hmmmm.....

Same here everyone - Have a great Thanksgiving. I have full house circus coming here - It is always great...:loveyou:

And a Happy Hanukkah to all who celebrate.
Cheers,
Rose

 

[rosemadderlake]

This UID was submitted as a possible match months ago, just in case-even though the dentals didn't really match. As you all have said, more information = more helpful. Not sure how Sylvia'd get all the way to Irondequoit, but you never know.

What is striking about this UID is the likeness of the sketch, white button, and estimated death 1972-1978. If Sylvia’s dental charting is available but not entered, maybe this UID could be ruled out without DNA which takes what, two years?

Anyway, I guess my line of thinking here is yes; the UID was submitted for a match but are there other details available?

bbm: not sure either -it's far away...

 

[Jmoose]

What is striking about this UID is the likeness of the sketch, white button, and estimated death 1972-1978. If Sylvia’s dental charting is available but not entered, maybe this UID could be ruled out without DNA which takes what, two years?

Anyway, I guess my line of thinking here is yes; the UID was submitted for a match but are there other details available?

bbm: not sure either -it's far away...

Patience is a virtue...so we will wait, while this case slowly (slowly) evolves-Sylvia's brother has submitted DNA with which to compare. A few years from now, maybe we'll know. I hate waiting, though-and the dentals don't sound like a match-but what if it's her? What does that mean, I wonder?

 

[alliemay]

Under this girls profile, in the DNA section, they have "complete - insufficient DNA for profiling." I don't know much about the DNA process, but I noticed they have ruled out two other woman from New York. I am guessing they were able to do this based on dental charts of the two they have ruled out. I have read that there is more success with dental than there is with DNA. In reading up on the 9/11 victims, in showing the percentages of how they identified them, dental records had a higher percentage than DNA. I really wish there was some way for the family to get the dental records.

 

[Jmoose]

Under this girls profile, in the DNA section, they have "complete - insufficient DNA for profiling." I don't know much about the DNA process, but I noticed they have ruled out two other woman from New York. I am guessing they were able to do this based on dental charts of the two they have ruled out. I have read that there is more success with dental than there is with DNA. In reading up on the 9/11 victims, in showing the percentages of how they identified them, dental records had a higher percentage than DNA. I really wish there was some way for the family to get the dental records.

I just am not understanding why there aren't any dentals for Sylvia-dentist retired and the records destroyed? Once again, if they had investigated sooner, this wouldn't be a problem. And this woman who was found-doesn't it just figure that there was insufficient DNA for profiling? I wonder when they reported this on the NAMUS file? So typical of this case-barriers everywhere

 

[rosemadderlake]

I was reading through some of the Wagnerian archives and there was a small article on Dr. Walter Kanzler, Asst. Prof. Biology in the Feb. 27, 1973 newspaper on pg. 8. The Wag really gives a sense of college life, and the culture of the times. Skeet, these archives are a total find, and I am amazed they are all there on line. The website has a viewer at the bottom where you can enlarge and pull up the edition. And, then save in adobe acrobat (when it is not crashing, LOL!).

http://wagnerian.omeka.net/items/show/2494

http://wagnerian.omeka.net


In searching Dr. Kanzler, I found a memorial newsletter on him in the September 2009 ‘Limulus Newletter’ (Wagner’s Biology newsletter). Chances are he was one of Sylvia’s professors. He had relatives in Germany. There are some nice pictures and memories of him – he was a beloved professor and taught at Wagner for 40 years.

http://wagner.wpengine.netdna-cdn.c...013/01/Newsletter-October-special-Kanzler.pdf


Here is a PDF attachment of The Limulus. The Wag is too big an attachment to attach on WS, so I hope that link works for everyone.