Oct. 1997 Article Vanity Fair - Check it

[Whaleshark]

If JBR put up a fuss, and was more than they could handle, wouldn't someone in the house have woken up and heard all that going on at that point?

If they weren't going to set the alarm off by going back out the window, they wouldn't set it off by going out the doors....if the alarm was going to go off by coming/going in/out a door, it would have done so by coming/going in/out a window....

and if they were in such a hurry, and did leave out that window, they also put back a table or chair on the outside of the door to that room, and then climbed out that window and did gymnastics to get through that upper area beyond the window, and then put the black grate back in place over that area?

whether or not Steve Thomas provided some info, why does that discount the professional opinion of Gregg McCrary? And other quotes of people regarding the Ramseys and situations involving the DA and BPD, etc?

 

[dodie20]

Well, picture one...or two that came up with a plan and due to opportunity, would be able to gain access to the house by casing it beforehand. They would know JBR was a trophy daughter, with parents that would do anything to get her back---particularly with a scary note. They may have thought the Ramseys would not call the police....would go to the bank and get the money, and then hand it over. The plan could have started with a burglary plan, after seeing the article in the paper.

They knew they could go back out the broken window, without setting off any alarms. The problem could have started in the basement----JBR may have been more then they could handle--perhaps putting up a fuss. The overkill and assault to me, appear that they became angry at her. Lou Smit claims there was evidence that they tried to put her in a suitcase, but they couldn't get it through the window. At that point the kidnapping plan was unravelling. The note was already on the staircase. I think they killed and assaulted her in a rage, put her in the closest hiding spot they could find---the cellar room, and just got out of dodge then. This wasn't the work of professionals.

I don't know why a half-assed plan at a kidnapping attempt, that went bad is so unbelievable to some, and a parent's doing this to cover up an accident with staging is more believable......especially since you have parents with no past history of abuse---quite the opposite; and parents that did not have the criminal knowledge to do staging or know the movie lines/plots. As Lou Smit has said: most crimes are as they appear to be.

The only way I could even consider this scenario, is if the ransom note had been written before they entered the house. If for some reason bungling kidnappers wrote it while IN the house, surely they wouldn't have written a practice note & they would have kept it short & sweet. 'we've got your daughter. we want x amount of dollars. don't call cops. we'll call you at x time.' All that other stuff was rambling garbage. MOO.

 

[Agatha_C]

Maikai,

Why would kidnappers, wrap her in a blanket with her favorite nightgown? Why did they redress her at all? After all they were angered and in such a rage that they killed her and sexually assaulted her, not just that night but prior to. So, we are to believe they suddenly felt bad, these sickos that could rape and murder a baby?

Im assuming you mean two intruders as you use the word "They". So help me understand how they both lost their cool and brutally murdered a small child? Yet not one of them in all the hours they spent in that house and committing that heinous crime, left nothing of themselves anywhere? Please dont bring up the TDNA or I'll have to refer you to the Chandra Levy case and the fiasco with the DNA there, handled at the same lab. I dont by it and never will...

 

[Maikai]

Maikai,

Why would kidnappers, wrap her in a blanket with her favorite nightgown? Why did they redress her at all? After all they were angered and in such a rage that they killed her and sexually assaulted her, not just that night but prior to. So, we are to believe they suddenly felt bad, these sickos that could rape and murder a baby?

Im assuming you mean two intruders as you use the word "They". So help me understand how they both lost their cool and brutally murdered a small child? Yet not one of them in all the hours they spent in that house and committing that heinous crime, left nothing of themselves anywhere? Please dont bring up the TDNA or I'll have to refer you to the Chandra Levy case and the fiasco with the DNA there, handled at the same lab. I dont by it and never will...

I don't know if it's one or two or more. The butler's door was open---one could have left that way...the other out the window. If there were two, one may have left when things started unravelling. Wrapping in a blanket could be remorse---might not mean everything. It's unclear to me where the nightgown was---they show something pink on the bed. I can't pretend to get inside the head of anyone capable of this crime----but I would be one is not a stranger to violence.....and was a substance abuser.

 

[Maikai]

The only way I could even consider this scenario, is if the ransom note had been written before they entered the house. If for some reason bungling kidnappers wrote it while IN the house, surely they wouldn't have written a practice note & they would have kept it short & sweet. 'we've got your daughter. we want x amount of dollars. don't call cops. we'll call you at x time.' All that other stuff was rambling garbage. MOO.

I think there was thought put into the note prior to entering the house...and it could have been typed, because of the length when handwritten. Some of the crossoffs indicate to me that the note was copied, and the writer lost their place a couple times. The length and detail in it doesn't make sense---that may have been part of the "fun"---putting in movie references and lines. The entrepreneur article picture has been brought up several times over the years-----that is from "Ricochet" which deals with a vendetta. If that was done by the intruder, it shows a bit more planning.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't know if it's one or two or more. The butler's door was open---one could have left that way...the other out the window. If there were two, one may have left when things started unravelling. Wrapping in a blanket could be remorse---might not mean everything. It's unclear to me where the nightgown was---they show something pink on the bed. I can't pretend to get inside the head of anyone capable of this crime----but I would be one is not a stranger to violence.....and was a substance abuser.

Why would one climb UP a wall and out a window (plus moving a very heavy metal grate) if the butler's door was open? Why wouldn't they both go out the door? We don't really know if that door (or any door) WAS really open (unlocked). That was heresay, one of JR's friends who made that comment. There was NO real evidence that door was open at the time of the murder.
If you have been reading here a while, you already know that the "pink thing on the bed" is NOT her Barbie nightie, but the pink pajama top from the night before (she is wearing it is a Christmas morning photo). The nightie we are speaking about (as you well know or should know) is the one found in the basement on top of the white blanket she was found wrapped in. If you have read this case at all you know that LE freely speaks about the pink nightie found in the wineceller on top of the white blanket.
This is what frustrates me about most IDI- they really DON'T know these things that anyone who has read the case at all (regardless of RDI or not) should know.

 

[BBB167893]

Yes, there's probably blame to spread around, but I think legally, the DA could share the information with the Ramsey's lawyers, and it was above board. The Vanitiy Fair article was done because Steve Thomas wanted things his way, and if he couldn't have it his way,instead of going through channels he took it upon himself to sneak around and share distorted information with a reporter.

What would YOU have done, Maikai? Just answer me that before we go any further.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't know why a half-assed plan at a kidnapping attempt, that went bad is so unbelievable to some, and a parent's doing this to cover up an accident with staging is more believable

I'd be more than happy to explain it to you!

......especially since you have parents with no past history of abuse---quite the opposite;

That means absolutely NOTHING to me.

and parents that did not have the criminal knowledge to do staging or know the movie lines/plots.

That's just IT, Maikai: whomever did this crime didn't have a CLUE what they were doing! That's not just my opinion, either.

As Lou Smit has said: most crimes are as they appear to be.

THAT'S WHAT I'm SAYING! And it REALLY torks me off that he forgot that!

 

[Maikai]

What would YOU have done, Maikai? Just answer me that before we go any further.

I would have taken Steve Thomas off the case.

 

[Maikai]

Why would one climb UP a wall and out a window (plus moving a very heavy metal grate) if the butler's door was open? Why wouldn't they both go out the door? We don't really know if that door (or any door) WAS really open (unlocked). That was heresay, one of JR's friends who made that comment. There was NO real evidence that door was open at the time of the murder.
If you have been reading here a while, you already know that the "pink thing on the bed" is NOT her Barbie nightie, but the pink pajama top from the night before (she is wearing it is a Christmas morning photo). The nightie we are speaking about (as you well know or should know) is the one found in the basement on top of the white blanket she was found wrapped in. If you have read this case at all you know that LE freely speaks about the pink nightie found in the wineceller on top of the white blanket.
This is what frustrates me about most IDI- they really DON'T know these things that anyone who has read the case at all (regardless of RDI or not) should know.

It's unclear what signficance the barbie nightgown has---one theory was it was stuck to the blanket. Yes, she did keep pink pajamas under a pillow. It was a neighbor that said he saw the door open---one possibility if there were two is that when things got carried away one bolted up the stairs and out the door, leaving the other behind with JBR. There is a police photo of the butler door opened, and no one in the house that morning acknowledged opening the door.

 

[BBB167893]

I would have taken Steve Thomas off the case.

No doubt! I'm sure you would have.

I MEANT if you were in his position. I've already told you what I would have done!

 

[DeeDee249]

It's unclear what signficance the barbie nightgown has---one theory was it was stuck to the blanket. Yes, she did keep pink pajamas under a pillow. It was a neighbor that said he saw the door open---one possibility if there were two is that when things got carried away one bolted up the stairs and out the door, leaving the other behind with JBR. There is a police photo of the butler door opened, and no one in the house that morning acknowledged opening the door.

Do you have a source for the neighbor who saw the door open? Because I recall that it was one of the friends the Rs called over that morning. He claimed to have "seen" the RN through that glass door, even though the actual location of the RN was NOT there. By that time, the RN had been given to Officer French, who arrived before ANY of the friends. So just by saying he "saw" the note (he actually said he READ the note) through the glass door tells me he is lying.

 

[Maikai]

Do you have a source for the neighbor who saw the door open? Because I recall that it was one of the friends the Rs called over that morning. He claimed to have "seen" the RN through that glass door, even though the actual location of the RN was NOT there. By that time, the RN had been given to Officer French, who arrived before ANY of the friends. So just by saying he "saw" the note (he actually said he READ the note) through the glass door tells me he is lying.

No, I just remember reading that at one time. It would have been the same neighbor that said he saw weird lights on in the kitchen, if the butler door statement is true. I never understood the friend saying he saw the ransom note on the stairway, unless JR had put it back which didn't seem likely. There was a crime scene photo of the door open, but when it was opened is a mystery. It was on the same side of the house as the baseball bat.

 

[Maikai]

No doubt! I'm sure you would have.

I MEANT if you were in his position. I've already told you what I would have done!

You mean if I were in Steve Thomas's position? I would never have gone to the media if I were part of an ongoing investigation---particularly sneaking off for a Vanity Fair article. I would have listened to a more seasoned detective such as Lou Smit...someone with a track record of successful cases. I would have respected due process. I would have asked to be taken off the case when it became all consuming, and I couldn't be objective. I wouldn't have written a book with distorted information.

 

[Whaleshark]

Even Lou Smit said that he himself should be taken off the case because he could not be objective either.

And praying with your client and thinking they are 'nice Christian' people that you can relate to, and so are just not capable of doing such a thing...is not being objective.

 

[UKGuy]

It's unclear what signficance the barbie nightgown has---one theory was it was stuck to the blanket. Yes, she did keep pink pajamas under a pillow. It was a neighbor that said he saw the door open---one possibility if there were two is that when things got carried away one bolted up the stairs and out the door, leaving the other behind with JBR. There is a police photo of the butler door opened, and no one in the house that morning acknowledged opening the door.

Maikai,

It's unclear what signficance the barbie nightgown has

Naturally you are claiming this lack of clarity for yourself, and not for others, right?

I for one can clearly see that the pink barbie nighgown should not be situated in the wine-cellar. This is not where JonBenet would store such an item

It was also bloodstained so presumably the blood originated either from the primary crime-scene of by secondary transfer from JonBenet or a crime-scene artifact?

The significance of the barbie nightgown is that it should not be there, along with her barbie doll, these items represent the elephant in the room.


JonBenet was hidden away in the wine-cellar to facilitate the deception of an abduction. Similarly the nightgown and doll were placed there, out of the way, since they probably originated from a prior crime-scene.

The wine-cellar was deliberately constructed, so I would suggest that the inclusion of the barbie nighgown was not accidental!



.

 

[UKGuy]

Even Lou Smit said that he himself should be taken off the case because he could not be objective either.

And praying with your client and thinking they are 'nice Christian' people that you can relate to, and so are just not capable of doing such a thing...is not being objective.

Whaleshark,

Amen.

 

[UKGuy]

Why would one climb UP a wall and out a window (plus moving a very heavy metal grate) if the butler's door was open? Why wouldn't they both go out the door? We don't really know if that door (or any door) WAS really open (unlocked). That was heresay, one of JR's friends who made that comment. There was NO real evidence that door was open at the time of the murder.
If you have been reading here a while, you already know that the "pink thing on the bed" is NOT her Barbie nightie, but the pink pajama top from the night before (she is wearing it is a Christmas morning photo). The nightie we are speaking about (as you well know or should know) is the one found in the basement on top of the white blanket she was found wrapped in. If you have read this case at all you know that LE freely speaks about the pink nightie found in the wineceller on top of the white blanket.
This is what frustrates me about most IDI- they really DON'T know these things that anyone who has read the case at all (regardless of RDI or not) should know.

DeeDee249,

but the pink pajama top from the night before (she is wearing it is a Christmas morning photo).

So if JonBenet dresses herself that day, she removes the pink pajama top and pink pajama bottoms and changes into the clothes she wore to ride her bicycle.

Assuming she placed the top under her pillow, why would she not place the bottoms there also?


If she did not do this and dropped her pink bottoms , say on the bathroom floor, then they would have been recorded as such. Yet we have no mention of them.

This suggests to me she was wearing them after returning from the White's?


.

 

[joeskidbeck]

This suggests to me she was wearing them after returning from the White's?
SBM

UKGuy, Wouldn't you love to know if the pj bottoms were scraped for touch dna? IMO, if they were found, they were scraped and it's probably safe to say they didn't have the so-called intruder dna because Ms. Lacey would have shouted it from the rooftops. These are two questions I would love to see answered: Where were the bottoms found and whose dna were on them.

 

[UKGuy]

This suggests to me she was wearing them after returning from the White's?
SBM

UKGuy, Wouldn't you love to know if the pj bottoms were scraped for touch dna? IMO, if they were found, they were scraped and it's probably safe to say they didn't have the so-called intruder dna because Ms. Lacey would have shouted it from the rooftops. These are two questions I would love to see answered: Where were the bottoms found and whose dna were on them.

joeskidbeck,

Wouldn't you love to know if the pj bottoms were scraped for touch dna?

I sure would. But I reckon they have gone for a walk along with the size-6 underwear that JonBenet was wearing to the White's.

If the pink bottoms had been found they would have been listed on one of the evidence lists. If they have been redacted and their status sealed because they were found in a location that might indicate a particular suspect?

There is blood on the barbie nightgown, white-blanket, and the size-12's, so I'm willing to bet there was blood on both the size-6 underwear and her pink pajama bottoms.


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