OH OH - Brian Shaffer, 27, Columbus, 1 April 2006 - #3

[itsrak]

Good post. I'm curious as to why you think he was in the construction area so soon, within minutes?

Just cuz last seen around 2am, bar closed just 30 minutes later, he wasn't found in bar (maybe hid, but don't know why he would have wanted to be in bar post-closing), didn't exit normal way, so if he went out through construction area as Det. Hurst suggests, prolly would have done so w/in 30 minutes. Prolly less, since Clint looked for him (I know of no reason to think Clint would have lied about that), including in bathroom, w/ no success. May have been into construction area and dead at or before 2:30. That would explain why Clint couldn't find Brian and why Brian did not answer Clint's call, or any other call from around 2am on in perpetuity.

 

[embufum]

There are 3 theories that the police have about what happened to Brian but from what I know they will not release them. If the scent dogs are wrong then we can completely dismiss that Brian went into the construction area. I find it curious that they think Brian did not enter the construction area through the door that enters by the Tuna. They think that he went down the service elevator.

Lots of unanswered questions in my mind. Brian was last seen walking toward the band at around 1:55. He was never seen leaving the bar.

So IF he walked out with intentions of going to the construction area then why didn't he just walk out the main door? He could have easily entered the construction area where he supposedly exited.

If he was meeting someone there then who? Everyone that came in the bar left the way they came in.

If he was going to do a drug deal again why go to the construction area.

If Brian was meeting someone out the side door then how and when did they know where to meet him? He had no calls placed from his phone to anyone?

The dogs followed Brian's scent to the freight elevator into the construction area then out to a side door and to a Wendy's. Are we to believe that the dogs followed this path and were 100% wrong? I honestly don't know what to think on that one. Maybe it's just coincidental?

I'm not a believer about the drug deal theory. Brian was talking to two girls left with their cell numbers then went immediately into the bar told Clint and Meredith that he was going in back to talk to the band. If he was going to do a drug deal how and when and to who did this conversation take place?

The only way would be for him to physically talk to someone since he didn't use his phone. Were these people in the bar? If so then they have to be seen going out the main entrance. I find it hard to believe he walked back to the band and immediately turned around walked past everyone he just talked to and the 2 police officers and to the service elevator.

If they were not in the bar then how and where did they know to meet Brian? Who would plan on doing a drug deal in a dark construction zone? There are a million places to do a drug deal I just don't seen him doing it in a 300 ft dark hall way that was dug up.

If Brian did make it into the construction zone then it's my assumption that he didn't make it there within minutes. If he did we have to assume that Brian had some knowledge of the layout of the building and if he did he most likely would not get lost into the construction zone. Either way it would take him a long time to navigate all that way to the exit door.

The bad thing here is that none of us know what this area looked like. It would help if we could at least have an idea of what it looks like now. When Det Hurst said it was dug up what does he mean by that? I would like to know what type of equipment was in there. I want to know what was dug up and how deep? Was it completely dark in there? If so how would Brian find his was around? A flip phone is not going to supply much light.

Also, if Brian did some how stumble into the construction area why in the world did he continue to go that way? Once inside a dark area like that why not just turn around and go out the door that the band went out? The fact that they think he went down the service elevator makes it even less likely that he was even in the construction area. There is zero reason for him to go onto that area no matter what he went that way for.

So again, we are to believe that Brian somehow walked all the way to the service elevator without ever being seen not only by any cameras but not by one single person. As far as we know Brian never left the bar that night. I don't mean the building I mean the actual bar. Honestly my thoughts on him getting out after hours over the balcony seems even more likely than ever. Of course I'm not betting on it and I am certainly open to other theories.

 

[embufum]

Just cuz last seen around 2am, bar closed just 30 minutes later, he wasn't found in bar (maybe hid, but don't know why he would have wanted to be in bar post-closing), didn't exit normal way, so if he went out through construction area as Det. Hurst suggests, prolly would have done so w/in 30 minutes. Prolly less, since Clint looked for him (I know of no reason to think Clint would have lied about that), including in bathroom, w/ no success. May have been into construction area and dead at or before 2:30. That would explain why Clint couldn't find Brian and why Brian did not answer Clint's call, or any other call from around 2am on in perpetuity.

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying that. I was taking it as he went down there and was gone within minutes. So you think he got there pretty quick and died in there just as quick too?

 

[embufum]

Something else that I just recalled. Det. Hurst said that dogs were used on more than one occasion. I would love to know if those dogs came up with the same route as before and if they were the same dogs?

 

[XPh]

I'm not a believer about the drug deal theory. Brian was talking to two girls left with their cell numbers then went immediately into the bar told Clint and Meredith that he was going in back to talk to the band. If he was going to do a drug deal how and when and to who did this conversation take place?

The only way would be for him to physically talk to someone since he didn't use his phone. Were these people in the bar? If so then they have to be seen going out the main entrance. I find it hard to believe he walked back to the band and immediately turned around walked past everyone he just talked to and the 2 police officers and to the service elevator.

If they were not in the bar then how and where did they know to meet Brian? Who would plan on doing a drug deal in a dark construction zone? There are a million places to do a drug deal I just don't seen him doing it in a 300 ft dark hall way that was dug up.

You’re so quick to dismiss the drug deal theory (or some other shady deal/meeting with dangerous people—not necessarily drug related, but something along those lines), but I have yet to hear anything that actually refutes it.

You ask: Why weren’t the people he met seen on camera? Because if there’s a way to get out of the construction site, there’s probably a way in from the outside too. Clearly these people with malicious intent would have wanted to avoid being seen.

You ask: Why would someone want to meet there? Hmmmmm maybe because they planned to commit a kidnapping/murder???

You ask: How did they know to meet him there? One would think a meeting of this nature would obviously be arranged in advanced (I don’t think this would have been your average drug deal—again, if it was even drug related at all).

You ask: Why would he walk toward the band and then turn completely around. Ummm why is this even a question?? You really think it’s that unreasonable for him to wander one direction and then change directions immediately after? Doesn’t sound like a good reason to rule out a theory to me. Plus, as I mentioned in my original post on this theory, he may not have ever planned to talk with the band (this could have been a cover from Clint who didn’t want to reveal the true nature of Brian’s meeting, possibly because Clint was also involved).

I’m all for critiques of a theory, but I haven’t heard anything yet that makes this one worth dismissing.

 

[itsrak]

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying that. I was taking it as he went down there and was gone within minutes. So you think he got there pretty quick and died in there just as quick too?

Yeah, if Brian had, as the detective suggests, entered the construction area, I'd assume he did so no later than 2:30am. Had he, as the detective also suggests, 'most likely got exited out of there' (not sure why he said 'got exited' rather than 'exited') then I'd think he'd have shown up on cams, shown up at his nearby apartment that morning, returned phone calls, and gone on about his life. But he did none of those things. Ever again. So he was very likely dead that morn. Now, someone may have killed him. Or he may have killed himself somewhere. But seems a lot more likely to me that if, as the detective suggests, Brian entered the 'all dug up' construction area, he probably died there in an accident.

 

[embufum]

You’re so quick to dismiss the drug deal theory (or some other shady deal/meeting with dangerous people—not necessarily drug related, but something along those lines), but I have yet to hear anything that actually refutes it.

You ask: Why weren’t the people he met seen on camera? Because if there’s a way to get out of the construction site, there’s probably a way in from the outside too. Clearly these people with malicious intent would have wanted to avoid being seen.

You ask: Why would someone want to meet there? Hmmmmm maybe because they planned to commit a kidnapping/murder???

You ask: How did they know to meet him there? One would think a meeting of this nature would obviously be arranged in advanced (I don’t think this would have been your average drug deal—again, if it was even drug related at all).

You ask: Why would he walk toward the band and then turn completely around. Ummm why is this even a question?? You really think it’s that unreasonable for him to wander one direction and then change directions immediately after? Doesn’t sound like a good reason to rule out a theory to me. Plus, as I mentioned in my original post on this theory, he may not have ever planned to talk with the band (this could have been a cover from Clint who didn’t want to reveal the true nature of Brian’s meeting, possibly because Clint was also involved).

I’m all for critiques of a theory, but I haven’t heard anything yet that makes this one worth dismissing.

As far as I know there is no evidence of any type of drug history of any kind with Brian and that's accord to the police. Nothing wrong with having a theory but one's that are pure speculation I personally chose not to put much faith in.

And it's not that I'm quick to dismiss it I personally don't see Brian's actions that night being that of a person doing a drug deal.

 

[embufum]

You’re so quick to dismiss the drug deal theory (or some other shady deal/meeting with dangerous people—not necessarily drug related, but something along those lines), but I have yet to hear anything that actually refutes it.

You ask: Why weren’t the people he met seen on camera? Because if there’s a way to get out of the construction site, there’s probably a way in from the outside too. Clearly these people with malicious intent would have wanted to avoid being seen.

You ask: Why would someone want to meet there? Hmmmmm maybe because they planned to commit a kidnapping/murder???

You ask: How did they know to meet him there? One would think a meeting of this nature would obviously be arranged in advanced (I don’t think this would have been your average drug deal—again, if it was even drug related at all).

You ask: Why would he walk toward the band and then turn completely around. Ummm why is this even a question?? You really think it’s that unreasonable for him to wander one direction and then change directions immediately after? Doesn’t sound like a good reason to rule out a theory to me. Plus, as I mentioned in my original post on this theory, he may not have ever planned to talk with the band (this could have been a cover from Clint who didn’t want to reveal the true nature of Brian’s meeting, possibly because Clint was also involved).

I’m all for critiques of a theory, but I haven’t heard anything yet that makes this one worth dismissing.

It wasn't just Clint. In the interview with Det Hurst he said they both mentioned Brian going back to talk to the band. Meredith took a polygraph.

 

[Satch]

Yeah, if Brian had, as the detective suggests, entered the construction area, I'd assume he did so no later than 2:30am. Had he, as the detective also suggests, 'most likely got exited out of there' (not sure why he said 'got exited' rather than 'exited') then I'd think he'd have shown up on cams, shown up at his nearby apartment that morning, returned phone calls, and gone on about his life. But he did none of those things. Ever again. So he was very likely dead that morn. Now, someone may have killed him. Or he may have killed himself somewhere. But seems a lot more likely to me that if, as the detective suggests, Brian entered the 'all dug up' construction area, he probably died there in an accident.

Another thing,

Could Brian have been trapped or dead as early as 2:10, which would explain why he wasn't answering his cellphone? Or do you think he turned off his phone before his accident and likely death from that? Remember, an intoxicated Brian only has from say 1:56 to 2:10 and beyond when he is never seen or heard from again. What I would like to ask the Podcast Comeback Show hosts for the investigators are the following:

1.) How long on average does it take to get out of The Ugly Tuna Saloona to the Construction site?
2.) What known exits lead to the construction site besides the service elevator?
3.) How long does it take to leave the bar and go out the door leading to Wendy's?
4.) If trapped accidentally, why would screams not be heard in if the areas that we have talked about, if a victim was able to do that?

Does anyone have an email link to contact the show with questions? (Or their Facebook page?)

Satch

 

[itsrak]

Another thing,

Could Brian have been trapped or dead as early as 2:10, which would explain why he wasn't answering his cellphone? Or do you think he turned off his phone before his accident and likely death from that? Remember, an intoxicated Brian only has from say 1:56 to 2:10 and beyond when he is never seen or heard from again. What I would like to ask the Podcast Comeback Show hosts for the investigators are the following:

1.) How long on average does it take to get out of The Ugly Tuna Saloona to the Construction site?
2.) What known exits lead to the construction site besides the service elevator?
3.) How long does it take to leave the bar and go out the door leading to Wendy's?
4.) If trapped accidentally, why would screams not be heard in if the areas that we have talked about, if a victim was able to do that?

Does anyone have an email link to contact the show with questions? (Or their Facebook page?)

Satch

As to #4 - the Saloona was on upper level, and according to the detective, the construction area was at a lower level. It must have been at street and/or basement level since it was 'all dug up'. So, if Brian had an accident in that construction area at say 2:15am-ish, then:
1) bar would still be loud, band still playing, last call, etc. - so, tough to hear from the bar sounds coming from a construction area at a different level
2) in the wee hours of a Sat. morn, a construction area would likely be deserted, so no-one to hear any sounds/screams from within the construction area
3) maybe any accident was quick/severe, resulted in no screams.

 

[embufum]

As to #4 - the Saloona was on upper level, and according to the detective, the construction area was at a lower level. It must have been at street and/or basement level since it was 'all dug up'. So, if Brian had an accident in that construction area at say 2:15am-ish, then:
1) bar would still be loud, band still playing, last call, etc. - so, tough to hear from the bar sounds coming from a construction area at a different level
2) in the wee hours of a Sat. morn, a construction area would likely be deserted, so no-one to hear any sounds/screams from within the construction area
3) maybe any accident was quick/severe, resulted in no screams.

From where the construction area was in relationship to the Tuna I would think that Brian could be screaming at the top of his lungs and no one at the bar would ever hear him. It's possible from the walk way in front of the stores someone could have. I would say that back in the hall way he wouldn't even have a cell signal.

 

[houndpounder]

I can not imagine why LE would not work out an immunity deal with Clint, see what he has to say and take it from there. I do not think Clint has anything to do with Brian's disappearance but there was something going on that they were both involved in. Clint wants to protect himself. It is not unusual for someone to lawyer up if they are innocent. In fact it is recommended, so an innocent person isn't backed in to a corner or incriminate themselves answering questions.

There are search and rescue dogs and cadaver dogs. Rescue dogs pick up only on live scents.

I would say he had an accident in the construction area at the time his phone went off. He did talk about leaving, but from what i read it was when his mother was alive. (a lot of young adults say that). I don't see him leaving his Dad and his brother after his mother's death without saying anything. He was in school and seemed to have a direction in life and a girl he loved. If his father, brother and girlfriend say it's possible he just left it's because they want to have hope, without hope they have nothing. If he had planned to disappear, he would not have invited his brother out the same night, that would not make sense. Perhaps the construction contractor did come across his body some where and continued building to avoid a law suit. Or maybe they didn't, he has to be there some where.

There was a woman that was missing for years that lived alone was recently found by the new owners of the house when they were in the attic and looked down in between the walls. The woman must have been in the attic and took a wrong step and fell down in between the walls and died there, she was undiscovered for years.

 

[hrcuso]

The Wendy's that is being talked about here no longer exists. It was at the southeast corner of East 9th & High St (1510 N High St) which is immediately South of the building that houses the Ugly Tuna. The area has since been redeveloped into a 5 story mixed use building (look for the Popeye's on Google Street View). At the time this was a standalone Wendy's surrounded by a parking lot, and it was sort of known as the start of the "not so nice area" south of the Gateway and north of the Short North neighborhood.

You can see the old Wendy's sign on the right side of this aerial view. The building immediately to the North (upper right corner of this pic) is the building that housed Ugly Tuna, which makes me think there may have been a construction exit that went SOUTH instead of the one to the east that exits into the plaza (where Jimmy John's is now) that everybody keeps talking about.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/wendys-columbus-32

EDIT: Another thing I remember from that time, that rang a bell when someone quoted Det. Hurst in the podcast saying "they were puttin' in a health store in the lower area in behind the restaurants and the downstairs businesses was completely dug up." The area he is probably talking about was the Sunflower Market (a Whole Foods/Trader Joe's type place) which was on the 1st floor of the Ugly Tuna building, directly SOUTH of the Ugly Tuna. It was at the NE corner of 9th & High (immediately north of that Wendy's).

The Sunflower Market opened on September 13, 2006, which puts it under construction on 4/1/2006.

 

[neesaki]

I can not imagine why LE would not work out an immunity deal with Clint, see what he has to say and take it from there. I do not think Clint has anything to do with Brian's disappearance but there was something going on that they were both involved in. Clint wants to protect himself. It is not unusual for someone to lawyer up if they are innocent. In fact it is recommended, so an innocent person isn't backed in to a corner or incriminate themselves answering questions.

There are search and rescue dogs and cadaver dogs. Rescue dogs pick up only on live scents.

I would say he had an accident in the construction area at the time his phone went off. He did talk about leaving, but from what i read it was when his mother was alive. (a lot of young adults say that). I don't see him leaving his Dad and his brother after his mother's death without saying anything. He was in school and seemed to have a direction in life and a girl he loved. If his father, brother and girlfriend say it's possible he just left it's because they want to have hope, without hope they have nothing. If he had planned to disappear, he would not have invited his brother out the same night, that would not make sense. Perhaps the construction contractor did come across his body some where and continued building to avoid a law suit. Or maybe they didn't, he has to be there some where.

There was a woman that was missing for years that lived alone was recently found by the new owners of the house when they were in the attic and looked down in between the walls. The woman must have been in the attic and took a wrong step and fell down in between the walls and died there, she was undiscovered for years.

If he was dead in the construction area, why wouldn't the cadaver dogs have hit on it. It would have been so recent there would have been a very strong scent, no question. So at this point, I don’t buy it, but if they want to dig up the area, I’m all for that too. If there’s any question at all, that’s what they should do. IMO

 

[embufum]

The Wendy's that is being talked about here no longer exists. It was at the southeast corner of East 9th & High St (1510 N High St) which is immediately South of the building that houses the Ugly Tuna. The area has since been redeveloped into a 5 story mixed use building (look for the Popeye's on Google Street View). At the time this was a standalone Wendy's surrounded by a parking lot, and it was sort of known as the start of the "not so nice area" south of the Gateway and north of the Short North neighborhood.

You can see the old Wendy's sign on the right side of this aerial view. The building immediately to the North (upper right corner of this pic) is the building that housed Ugly Tuna, which makes me think there may have been a construction exit that went SOUTH instead of the one to the east that exits into the plaza (where Jimmy John's is now) that everybody keeps talking about.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/wendys-columbus-32

EDIT: Another thing I remember from that time, that rang a bell when someone quoted Det. Hurst in the podcast saying "they were puttin' in a health store in the lower area in behind the restaurants and the downstairs businesses was completely dug up." The area he is probably talking about was the Sunflower Market (a Whole Foods/Trader Joe's type place) which was on the 1st floor of the Ugly Tuna building, directly SOUTH of the Ugly Tuna. It was at the NE corner of 9th & High (immediately north of that Wendy's).

The Sunflower Market opened on September 13, 2006, which puts it under construction on 4/1/2006.

Thanks for the great info! So I wonder if when Det Hurst said Brian was tracked out a side door if he came out by the parking garage walked down the alley and made a right and went over towards that Wendy's. Those would be as far a I can tell the only side doors and they are right near the construction area. Hard to imagine that there wasn't any cameras in that area.

 

[embufum]

If he was dead in the construction area, why wouldn't the cadaver dogs have hit on it. It would have been so recent there would have been a very strong scent, no question. So at this point, I don’t buy it, but if they want to dig up the area, I’m all for that too. If there’s any question at all, that’s what they should do. IMO

I'm with you. No way IMO that he is died in there. Cadaver dogs would have certainly picked up a scent.

 

[Satch]

I can not imagine why LE would not work out an immunity deal with Clint, see what he has to say and take it from there. I do not think Clint has anything to do with Brian's disappearance but there was something going on that they were both involved in. Clint wants to protect himself. It is not unusual for someone to lawyer up if they are innocent. In fact it is recommended, so an innocent person isn't backed in to a corner or incriminate themselves answering questions.

There are search and rescue dogs and cadaver dogs. Rescue dogs pick up only on live scents.

I would say he had an accident in the construction area at the time his phone went off. He did talk about leaving, but from what i read it was when his mother was alive. (a lot of young adults say that). I don't see him leaving his Dad and his brother after his mother's death without saying anything. He was in school and seemed to have a direction in life and a girl he loved. If his father, brother and girlfriend say it's possible he just left it's because they want to have hope, without hope they have nothing. If he had planned to disappear, he would not have invited his brother out the same night, that would not make sense. Perhaps the construction contractor did come across his body some where and continued building to avoid a law suit. Or maybe they didn't, he has to be there some where.

There was a woman that was missing for years that lived alone was recently found by the new owners of the house when they were in the attic and looked down in between the walls. The woman must have been in the attic and took a wrong step and fell down in between the walls and died there, she was undiscovered for years.

Yes,

Someone needs to contact the Comeback Podcast staff and get that very important message to Detective Hurst, Can a deal be worked out with Clint so he can be granted immunity to talk about that night? I am not saying he's guilty or innocent. But assuming and hoping that he's truthful, he could tell us a lot. I know. MANY don't trust him. But who else was closer to Brian that night than Clint who would talk. If promised immunity?

Satch

 

[XPh]

If he was dead in the construction area, why wouldn't the cadaver dogs have hit on it. It would have been so recent there would have been a very strong scent, no question. So at this point, I don’t buy it, but if they want to dig up the area, I’m all for that too. If there’s any question at all, that’s what they should do. IMO

I can see why you’d think this, but stranger things have happened, as we have seen in other cases.

I really want to know if LE’s search included checking inside of ventilation ducts. We have seen that getting stuck in just the right spot within duct work can prevent detection via sound (when alive) or smell (once deceased). The Jamie Minor case showed this—she was only found because they found some belongings of hers near where she entered.

Maybe this could be asked on the podcast.

 

[houndpounder]

He has to be in the building. A man will never give up the woman he loves and leave on his own without her. If the cadaver dogs went in so quickly maybe he was barely still alive. Another reason they didn’t pick up cadaver scent.

 

[itsrak]

I'd be very interested to know details of the supposed search of the 'completely dug up' construction area.

1) Was it actually searched? Is there proof it was searched? Are there people who took part who'd vouch for that, such as searchers, the developer/owner of the building (who would presumably have consented to the search), the construction contractor/GC (who would presumably have been consulted), etc.?
2) When was it searched? Monday the 3rd of April? Week later? Month later? Certainly, the 'completely dug up' areas at some point were filled and/or paved. When did that happen in relation to time of any search?
3) By whom was it searched? LE? Volunteers? Dogs? Whose dogs? Any digging done?
4) Was the entire construction area searched? The entire building? Crawl spaces?
5) Any unusual odor detected in the Sunshine Market space when it opened for business? Other spaces?

Anecdote: I've spent many hundreds of hours of my life searching - for buried Civil War relics - using a metal detector. I know from experience when I'm on a new site for the first time, my results improve after I've found that first relic. In other words, after I know for sure soldiers were there and there are relics in the ground, suddenly I start to find stuff more quickly. Just human nature. When you know - rather than suppose or hope or wonder - that what you are searching for is there, your focus and intensity greatly improve.

Now, the lead detective himself expressed doubts - understandably - as to why in the world Brian would have entered the construction area (although he also contends that 'the basic indication is that somehow Brian got down into the construction area'). If that was the mindset of searchers, as opposed to, say - we're 90% sure he's here, let's find him - that mindset may well - based on my anecdotal experiences - have impacted results. Dogs on the other hand, shouldn't be impacted by this sort of thing. But their handlers might....