GUILTY OH - Deborah McVay, 46, murdered, Big Prairie, 2 Jan 2011

[Linda7NJ]

I taught Behaviorally/Emotionally disturbed children for a year back in 2000. We had 8 students and a padded room in the classroom because these children were violent and a threat to harm others. One wore cowboy boots each day and was placed in our class after stomping on his teachers feet with those darn boots. These kids were so angry that they just wanted to hurt somebody. They were very impulsive, but unlike most childish impulses, their impulses tended to be violent.

I thought of those students when I read about this boy shooting his mom. There is alot going on in this boy's mind. I wonder if the school had referred him to any kind of special services considering his history of violence in the school environment. If not, they dropped the ball, IMO.

It doesn't necessarily change the course of a violent child's life to receive these types of school services. One of my former student's is now serving a sentence for most of his adult life for raping beating and robbing a woman when he was 18. Damien was the cutest little dark brown boy with a funny humor and a little man voice. He also had issues with white people. He told me one day "I don't have to listen to no white teacher." I responded by "telling him that people are like m&m's, we are all different colors on the outside but on the inside we are all the same". His victim was a white woman. The DA said after the trial that even though he claimed remorse at the trial, they had him on camera joking and laughing about his crime and how he eluded police for awhile.

Is it possible that some people are born without a conscience?

Sorry for the personal story but this particular crime brought back a flood of memories for me. I still think and worry about those students from so long ago who taught me so much.

So sad that this young man killed his own mother. It is hard to understand. And MizzIzzy, I agree with you. I bet he wants his mother.

MOO

wm

IMO Yes.

Sounds like Damien is right where he should be and God help everyone that crosses his path when/if he gets out.

Had he did the same crime, even while using a gun, at a young age it brings me zero comfort that he would get some "treatment" and sent off to live w/ relatives. Sometimes age just doesn't matter all that much. imo

 

[waltzingmatilda]

IMO Yes.

Sounds like Damien is right where he should be and God help everyone that crosses his path when/if he gets out.

Had he did the same crime, even while using a gun, at a young age it brings me zero comfort that he would get some "treatment" and sent off to live w/ relatives. Sometimes age just doesn't matter all that much. imo

Thank you LindaNJ. I feel the same way. I hope they keep him in Juvi. It is difficult to accept a child has no conscience but it's a reality. He will harm others sooner or later if they turn him out. It's just a matter of when. MOO.

wm

 

[oh_gal]

May have been over carrying in firewood....

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/state/firewood-spat-may-have-come-before-ohio-mom-killed

 

[waltzingmatilda]

May have been over carrying in firewood....

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/state/firewood-spat-may-have-come-before-ohio-mom-killed

~snipped from article~

Chief Deputy Nathan Fritz of the Holmes County Sheriff's Office said Tuesday authorities found one shotgun, three rifles and a gun rack in the boy's bedroom. Fritz says the .22-caliber rifle authorities believe was used in the shooting was found on the bed.

Oh my! The article states the guns were a gift from the boys now deceased grandfather. This boy should have never had access to guns til he was 21.(or maybe never)

Thanks for the link oh_gal!

wm

 

[oceanblueeyes]

~snipped from article~

Chief Deputy Nathan Fritz of the Holmes County Sheriff's Office said Tuesday authorities found one shotgun, three rifles and a gun rack in the boy's bedroom. Fritz says the .22-caliber rifle authorities believe was used in the shooting was found on the bed.

Oh my! The article states the guns were a gift from the boys now deceased grandfather. This boy should have never had access to guns til he was 21.(or maybe never)

Thanks for the link oh_gal!

wm

Why? Millions upon millions of children his age are around firearms and they don't murder anyone. It isn't the weapon used to murder.... it is all in the mind of the murderer who is determine to carry it out. That is why the vast majority of children around guns don't murder their parents or anyone else. They simply aren't murderers with murderous intents.

This boy was in a murderous rage because he was ticked off that his mother expected him to help out with the chores

We have seen parents murdered by kids for that motive before?

He could have just as easily plunged a knife through his mother's heart or beat her to death with a baseball bat like other youths have done to their parents when they got ticked off about something.

imo

 

[Texas Mist]

I taught Behaviorally/Emotionally disturbed children for a year back in 2000. We had 8 students and a padded room in the classroom because these children were violent and a threat to harm others. One wore cowboy boots each day and was placed in our class after stomping on his teachers feet with those darn boots. These kids were so angry that they just wanted to hurt somebody. They were very impulsive, but unlike most childish impulses, their impulses tended to be violent.

I thought of those students when I read about this boy shooting his mom. There is alot going on in this boy's mind. I wonder if the school had referred him to any kind of special services considering his history of violence in the school environment. If not, they dropped the ball, IMO.

It doesn't necessarily change the course of a violent child's life to receive these types of school services. One of my former student's is now serving a sentence for most of his adult life for raping beating and robbing a woman when he was 18. Damien was the cutest little dark brown boy with a funny humor and a little man voice. He also had issues with white people. He told me one day "I don't have to listen to no white teacher." I responded by "telling him that people are like m&m's, we are all different colors on the outside but on the inside we are all the same". His victim was a white woman. The DA said after the trial that even though he claimed remorse at the trial, they had him on camera joking and laughing about his crime and how he eluded police for awhile.

Is it possible that some people are born without a conscience?

Sorry for the personal story but this particular crime brought back a flood of memories for me. I still think and worry about those students from so long ago who taught me so much.

So sad that this young man killed his own mother. It is hard to understand. And MizzIzzy, I agree with you. I bet he wants his mother.

MOO

wm

BBM - It looks like the school did something, but not clear what help he may have received.


The investigation has unearthed previous disciplinary problems in the 10-year-old's young life, but no serious violence. In September 2007, the boy was disciplined for hitting his elementary school principal in the face and chest with a dustpan, Fritz said. The principal had been escorting the boy to the gymnasium for a "time-out" after he had been disruptive in class, and the boy grabbed the dustpan when they reached the gym, Fritz said. The incident was reported to the sheriff's office as an "unruly complaint" and referred to the prosecutor's office, but sheriff's deputies do not know the outcome. Killbuck Elementary School Principal David Wade confirmed that the boy was a student there for a number of years, but would not comment further. He deferred all inquiries to the district's superintendent, who did not immediately respond to a request for comment Tuesday. Sometime after that, the boy was transferred to Clark Elementary School, which specializes in children with behavioral problems or special needs, Fritz said. The principal at Clark Elementary also declined to comment.

http://www.local12.com/news/state/s...To-Mothers-Murder/y7JGyv-JjUGKe54_6gnTFA.cspx

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Why? Millions upon millions of children his age are around firearms and they don't murder anyone. It isn't the weapon used to murder.... it is all in the mind of the murderer who is determine to carry it out. That is why the vast majority of children around guns don't murder their parents or anyone else. They simply aren't murderers with murderous intents.

This boy was in a murderous rage because he was ticked off that his mother expected him to help out with the chores

We have seen parents murdered by kids for that motive before?

He could have just as easily plunged a knife through his mother's heart or beat her to death with a baseball bat like other youths have done to their parents when they got ticked off about something.

imo

You are right OBE. He could have just as easily grabbed anything within the home to use as a weapon since he was ticked off at mom. I think he definately has anger and rage issues. It is just my opinion that any kid his age shouldn't have access to firearms and ammunition. Grandpa's guns emptied of bullets and displayed on a gun rack in his room is ok, IMO. I just wish he didn't have access to the bullets. It's akin to throwing a match in a wheat field!

wm

 

[BuzzieCat]

Why? Millions upon millions of children his age are around firearms and they don't murder anyone. It isn't the weapon used to murder.... it is all in the mind of the murderer who is determine to carry it out. That is why the vast majority of children around guns don't murder their parents or anyone else. They simply aren't murderers with murderous intents.

imo

snipped for space by me

IMO if this kid was having some serious behavior problems, he shouldn't have been given a gun or rifle. I don't know if he was abused at some point or was just born without a conscience, but if he was hitting the principal with whatever makeshift weapon he could find, that's not normal. I don't think most "normal" kids with a stable home life and no serious mental problems would do something like that. I wouldn't give a gun to a kid who was going to a special school for kids with behavioral problems!

 

[miimaa]

Boys raised without a father in the house is a dangerous thing. I raised a boy alone (his father several states away) and he got into a lot of trouble (not like this but he has been in jail). I had to work, he had to be home alone. Too much freedom, too much responsibility to take care of himself, lack of discipline, no respect for authority. Many many things contributed to the outcome in Ohio.

Let me use my cousin and his family as another example. He's married, him and his wife both work full time. Two boys who are home alone when not in school. Boys are now 12 and 15 but they have been staying home alone for years. Brats on the bus - yet when bus driver called the house the parents believed the boys, NOT the bus driver. One time seen playing on the house roof by neighbor... parents did not believe it, they believed the boys. Other instances where parents believe the boys. The boys have zero respect for authority. They know they will not get into trouble at home.

I have seen how these boys talk to their mother. No respect whatsoever. If she 'tries' to make them do something they pout. They pout and sulk and actually tell her off (call her stupid, etc.) until she gives in and lets them have their way. This has happened many times. The other family members are liking these two boys less and less all the time. Even though their father lives with them, they have no discipline. If my cousin ever divorced, his wife should leave the boys with him because I would not be surprised to hear of a story like this coming from them.

I am going to get slammed but I will say it anyway -- some kids need an azzkicking. If they don't learn who is boss when they are young, they will learn it from cops, judges, prison guards, and inmates.



Oh... I want to add what happened with my son. He had a lot of free time and started having sex at a young age. Of course we got baby. That lead to a lot of things. Paternity tests, child support, need for transportation, no money, unable to pay support, drivers license suspension, fined/arrested for driving after suspension, car impounded, mom pays to get car out of impound, still can't get license back because of child support arrears, and it goes on. Jobs lost because of no transportation, fines compounded because not able to pay them because not able to work because not able to drive because not able to catch up on child support which not able to do because not able to work! He has gotten it together since those years but it was rough on both of us. I should have stayed married or lived near his father but what did I know back then (25 years ago).

 

[miimaa]

I also couldn't buy my son a lot of stuff his school friends had and that frustrated him greatly. Four-wheelers, video systems, motorcycle. I bet this mom couldn't either.... (my cousins brats have all the stuff though - the 15 yo is allowed to drive an old vehicle around the property)

 

[oceanblueeyes]

You are right OBE. He could have just as easily grabbed anything within the home to use as a weapon since he was ticked off at mom. I think he definately has anger and rage issues. It is just my opinion that any kid his age shouldn't have access to firearms and ammunition. Grandpa's guns emptied of bullets and displayed on a gun rack in his room is ok, IMO. I just wish he didn't have access to the bullets. It's akin to throwing a match in a wheat field!

wm

I do respect your opinion highly and I know my opinion on it is not a popular one but it is done with honest feelings.

Children use hunting weapons at a very early age, even younger than 10, and these longguns the grandfather passed down to him are used for hunting wild game.

I wonder if he had murdered with a baseball bat if people would still be wanting to blame the victim and the weapon... instead of the prepretrator that carried out the murder. Or if he had stabbed her straight through the heart with a butcher knife...would some blame the victim for not putting her knife under lock and key? Because other parents/siblings have been murdered by their own kid/sibling who blugenoned them to death with something that was accessable in the home........like baseball bats...other bludgeoning weapons..,burned the house down with them inside, and used knives.

In the linked article it states that only 10-10 year olds have murdered their parents in 31 years, I think it is pretty safe to say it isn't the weapon that is accessible to children, but is the individual child who forms the murderous intents.

So that is how I see it.

Mililions of children have access to guns in homes all across America. Millions of kids unfortunatly have some kind of disruptive issue that parents have to deal with but kids who kill their parents are so rare. That shows me the weapon is not to blame...no matter what they decided to use... but it is these rare children who have these capabilites to murder in cold blood that are to blame totally.

They are nothing like almost all other children, imo.

IMO

 

[miimaa]

There is a book called "High risk: children without a conscience" by Ken Magid which basically says kids like this are growing in number and how they get that way

too many mothers are working outside the home, that our divorce rate is too high, that there is a crisis in day-care, that too many teenagers are having children, that there is increasing child abuse and neglect, and that adoptions are occuring too late in the child's life

http://primal-page.com/highrisk.htm

IMO this boy would have hurt someone at some time. He had already been acting out at school. So very sad... I have not read where the father was but I expect he wasn't very involved.

 

[pomegranate]

I have to respectfully state that IMO there is no way this boy (or any other kid) was driven to commit a violent crime just because his mother works outside the home and/or didn't have a father in the home. I most certainly believe that an unstable home life is detrimental to children, but it doesn't create criminals. And for the record, it is possible to be a single parent, work outside the home, and still provide a stable and nurturing life for your child. Do we know about the boy's home life, and/or his relationship with his mother before this terrible incident?

I also have to agree with oceanblueeyes - having access to a gun didn't cause this kid to kill his mother. He attacked a principal with a dustpan, of all things. Obviously he was driven to act violently with whatever happened to be on hand. That said, I really don't like the idea of kids having access to guns, especially not loaded guns, or guns with ammunition readily available. The gun didn't make him do it, but what are the chances that he would have killed his mother if he wouldn't have had the gun?

It's such a tragedy for the mother and the son. He took his mother's life, and his life is essentially gone now too.

 

[cluciano63]

If the gun wasn't there, with bullets, maybe he would have thrown something at her, and she would be alive.

If you have a child who has shown any antisocial behavior whatsoever...your household does not need to include a loaded gun.

Just my opinion.

 

[oh_gal]

I agree with the idea that he could have used other weapons, but not quite as easily as he used a gun (and, depending on the weapon, not so successfully). (And I'm speaking here of the weapon only, not his explosive anger-prone mindset and how that played into his desire to harm his mother.)

You know, if he grabs a butcher knife to kill his mom, he's got to be close enough to her to actually strike her with it -- and that distance is only as far as the length of the blade of the knife, as well as the length of his arm. Same with a length of rope to strangle her, or a pipe to hit her in the back of the head with -- he's got to be close. But with a gun....you could really put some distance between you and the victim. You could be down a hallway, or standing in the doorway of another room, alltogether.

And guns are so darn easy. All you have to do is pick it up (providing it's loaded) aim, and pull the trigger (you could do just as easily with a crossbow, I guess). You've really got to put a lot more effort into stabbing someone, strangling them, of beating the life out of them. And you have to be physically able to overpower them. Not so with a gun.

So, while the argument could be made that he could have picked another weapon if he was so he**bent on killing his mom, if a gun hadn't been available and he had to rely on other means, he may not have had the physical stamina to carry out the deed.

 

[taramarie]

I taught Behaviorally/Emotionally disturbed children for a year back in 2000. We had 8 students and a padded room in the classroom because these children were violent and a threat to harm others. One wore cowboy boots each day and was placed in our class after stomping on his teachers feet with those darn boots. These kids were so angry that they just wanted to hurt somebody. They were very impulsive, but unlike most childish impulses, their impulses tended to be violent.

I thought of those students when I read about this boy shooting his mom. There is alot going on in this boy's mind. I wonder if the school had referred him to any kind of special services considering his history of violence in the school environment. If not, they dropped the ball, IMO.

It doesn't necessarily change the course of a violent child's life to receive these types of school services. One of my former student's is now serving a sentence for most of his adult life for raping beating and robbing a woman when he was 18. Damien was the cutest little dark brown boy with a funny humor and a little man voice. He also had issues with white people. He told me one day "I don't have to listen to no white teacher." I responded by "telling him that people are like m&m's, we are all different colors on the outside but on the inside we are all the same". His victim was a white woman. The DA said after the trial that even though he claimed remorse at the trial, they had him on camera joking and laughing about his crime and how he eluded police for awhile.

Is it possible that some people are born without a conscience?

Sorry for the personal story but this particular crime brought back a flood of memories for me. I still think and worry about those students from so long ago who taught me so much.

So sad that this young man killed his own mother. It is hard to understand. And MizzIzzy, I agree with you. I bet he wants his mother.

MOO

wm

I think it is absolutely possible for someone to be born without a conscience. Don't forget the story about Ted Bundy - his aunt said that she woke up to 3 year old smiling Ted Bundy laying knives around her body while she slept. Creepy, huh?

 

[OneLostGrl]

Why? Millions upon millions of children his age are around firearms and they don't murder anyone. It isn't the weapon used to murder.... it is all in the mind of the murderer who is determine to carry it out. That is why the vast majority of children around guns don't murder their parents or anyone else. They simply aren't murderers with murderous intents.

This boy was in a murderous rage because he was ticked off that his mother expected him to help out with the chores

We have seen parents murdered by kids for that motive before?

He could have just as easily plunged a knife through his mother's heart or beat her to death with a baseball bat like other youths have done to their parents when they got ticked off about something.

imo

Bold is mine

Because this is a child with a history of violence, that's why! He assaulted the principal at 7.. so buy the kid a gun at 10? No, I'm sorry, but somewhere the adults around this kid must take responsibility. You don't give a disturbed child a GUN and if you do and he kills someone with it it is not only the childs fault! Everyone is so quick to blame children label 'em bad seeds but who's raising these kids? Clearly nobody was watching out for this one, he assaulted the principal and got a gun. Shows the mindset of the adults in charge of his life IMO. It's very sad his mother had to die and he should be punished and be given treatment but I'm sure she knew he assaulted the principal- did she really think he'd be responsible and level headed with a gun?

 

[miimaa]

Some comments from another board say it better than I can....

While I think you can be the best parent in the world and things can go bad, a child with clear behavior problems should not have had access to a gun. If at the age of 6 he could not control himself long enough for a bus ride home, I can say that is a parenting issue. No clear boundaries were set for this child. There is no way my kids would think about smacking an adult. The threat of anyone calling mom or dad causes immediate fear and correction. Lil Joseph wasn't parented, plan and simple.

What kind of morons give a child a gun that's had disturbing behavior since he was six? To me, that one thing right there indicates he was indulged.

I was not trying to infer that because his mother worked, he turned out bad. Simply, I was pointing out what the author of that book said is one contributing factor to how kids get like this.

I only had one kid, but as a single working mom I would come home tired and still have to cook, do some laundry, go through the mail, clean up. Last thing I wanted to do was start disciplining the kid. I didn't have the energy and let a lot of things slide. My fault and I felt guilty for years about how his life went the hard lessons he had. They were hard because he had to learn them at 15 - 23, and not 6-9 when I should have been more on my game. My mother used to tell me I was too easy on him... but I didn't want to hear it. I felt bad enough that he didn't have a father and that his father never called or stayed in touch. Single moms know what I mean.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I think it is absolutely possible for someone to be born without a conscience. Don't forget the story about Ted Bundy - his aunt said that she woke up to 3 year old smiling Ted Bundy laying knives around her body while she slept. Creepy, huh?

I do agree with that.

I believe Joesph Duncan was just as dangerous at 8 years old when he was already torturing and raping little boys younger than him.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Bold is mine

Because this is a child with a history of violence, that's why! He assaulted the principal at 7.. so buy the kid a gun at 10? No, I'm sorry, but somewhere the adults around this kid must take responsibility. You don't give a disturbed child a GUN and if you do and he kills someone with it it is not only the childs fault! Everyone is so quick to blame children label 'em bad seeds but who's raising these kids? Clearly nobody was watching out for this one, he assaulted the principal and got a gun. Shows the mindset of the adults in charge of his life IMO. It's very sad his mother had to die and he should be punished and be given treatment but I'm sure she knew he assaulted the principal- did she really think he'd be responsible and level headed with a gun?

I don't think anyone bought him the guns. From what I understand his grandfather passed away and they were handed down to him. Maybe his grandfather had that stipulation in his Will.

I think his mom was trying to do the best she could for her family. Yes, she should have removed the guns from the home in this instance because this kid was way over the top with aggression. So many children have major anger issues though but most all of them don't murder anyone.

As a mother, I am sure she tried to convince herself this kid wasnt a killer either. I think it would be extremely hard for a parent to wrap their mind around the fact that their own child will actually murder them.

Although she was probably fearful of her own son and felt if she removed them, he would really be ticked off even more, and still do something very violent to her and imo, he would have....even if he didn't have a gun.

Most of these kid killers kill their parent or parents when they are unaware and asleep either on the couch in the living room or in their own beds. The parent(s) has no time to react no matter which weapon the child used.

I do not fault the mother for wanting to believe in her son even with all his faults and issues. I have no doubt she loved him and thought if she kept loving him his anger would diminish in time.

She was wrong to believe in him and paid the ultimate price.

The incident with the principal was when he was 7 iirc.

IMO