Laugh all you want, it does cause kids to stop having sex. No, of course, not all of them but among the group that would use abortion as a last ditch effort, it certainly prevents sexual exposure.
Cal
Ohio Bill Would Make Abortion Illegal Without Paternal Consent
- Thread starter csds703
- Start date
New Posts
-
Italy - Sailing yacht sank off Italian coast, 15 rescued, 7 missing, 19 August 2024
- Latest: SpanishInquisition
Laugh all you want, it does cause kids to stop having sex. No, of course, not all of them but among the group that would use abortion as a last ditch effort, it certainly prevents sexual exposure.
Cal
So the wome's body is held hostage by a man. Well lets look at this scene. College student becomes pregnant, well she has to get the man's "CONSENT" to have the baby or not. Well he decides. I am going to make her have my child. Yes I am. She says: I don't want to be a Mom, I still have my whole life ahead of me, school, career, marriage.
Well he says: IT IS MY CHOICE and you have to do what I say. No abortion for you. What I say goes.
Well she drops out of school, medical expenses, doctors appointments, etc. He is no where to be found. He has taken up with someone else.
She has the baby. She phones him. She is glad it is over, medical complications, insurance issues. Now she can return to school, get a degree, a career and have a life. She then asks him to sign "adoption" papers.
Not so fast, he says: I HAVE decided that you are not ALLOWED to adopt the baby out. After all, you spent 9 months pregnant, and I did not force you to have my baby, just to adopt it out.
Child support, what child support, good luck in getting that from me. Day care expenses, no way, you will have to support the baby. You know I may give you a buck here or there and maybe buy a crib. Go ahead , get an order for child support, I will pay child support when the Government "catches up with me and garnishes my wages", then I will quit my job and then you will have to find me again.
You are not getting a dime from me, no way. I have all the power and control.
What you and the child live in poverty. So what, you see, I have ruined your life, you horrible person. It is your fault you became pregnant. You will never go back to college, never find a suitable husband, never get a degree, get a career. You will of course have to work, pay child care, and all the expenses for the child, but hey I get to "enjoy" that I am a Dad.
I really don't care about you or "your" baby, I just enjoyed having all of the power and control over your life, your future, you well being.
So now she is a single Mom, poor, desperate, and Daddy is no where to be found in the last 17 years, because after the 1st year, the novelty of being a Dad wore thin. Well Daddy says: I am moving to California, and you again need my permission to adopt out. I am not going to do that, because lets just say in 5 years, I want to see "my child", well I know where he/she will be.
How about a provision of this bill: If a man does not consent to an abortion, he will be forced by law to "hire" the women as a surrogate mother. Then when he child is born, he will legally have to have full custody of the baby, and the mother is given visiting rights. So now she has to pay him child support, he has to quit his job, he has to put his career on hold, struggle financially, day in day out.
Let Daddy play the role of Mommy, I put money, that he will not find being a Daddy, a real Daddy all fun and games. After 6 months, he wants her to consent to adoption, she says no. Why should I. You have all the work to do, I only have access and visitation. Why the heck should I consent to adoption, heck, I go to school, I am getting my degree, my career is great and I play Mommy from time to time. Oh by the way, am I behind in my child support. Well the cheque is in the mail.
I think this only sound fair...........if Daddy wants the baby, he can assume full care and expenses for that baby. The women should not be held hostage, her life held hostage to the "whims" of a Daddy.
In a perfect world, women would be paid equal to men, in a perfect world, daycare will be provided free, in a perfect world, men adhere to their legal responsibility, in a perfect world men are "involved" in their child's life, in a perfect world, men pay child support. Too bad we do not live in a perfect world.
Well he says: IT IS MY CHOICE and you have to do what I say. No abortion for you. What I say goes.
Well she drops out of school, medical expenses, doctors appointments, etc. He is no where to be found. He has taken up with someone else.
She has the baby. She phones him. She is glad it is over, medical complications, insurance issues. Now she can return to school, get a degree, a career and have a life. She then asks him to sign "adoption" papers.
Not so fast, he says: I HAVE decided that you are not ALLOWED to adopt the baby out. After all, you spent 9 months pregnant, and I did not force you to have my baby, just to adopt it out.
Child support, what child support, good luck in getting that from me. Day care expenses, no way, you will have to support the baby. You know I may give you a buck here or there and maybe buy a crib. Go ahead , get an order for child support, I will pay child support when the Government "catches up with me and garnishes my wages", then I will quit my job and then you will have to find me again.
You are not getting a dime from me, no way. I have all the power and control.
What you and the child live in poverty. So what, you see, I have ruined your life, you horrible person. It is your fault you became pregnant. You will never go back to college, never find a suitable husband, never get a degree, get a career. You will of course have to work, pay child care, and all the expenses for the child, but hey I get to "enjoy" that I am a Dad.
I really don't care about you or "your" baby, I just enjoyed having all of the power and control over your life, your future, you well being.
So now she is a single Mom, poor, desperate, and Daddy is no where to be found in the last 17 years, because after the 1st year, the novelty of being a Dad wore thin. Well Daddy says: I am moving to California, and you again need my permission to adopt out. I am not going to do that, because lets just say in 5 years, I want to see "my child", well I know where he/she will be.
How about a provision of this bill: If a man does not consent to an abortion, he will be forced by law to "hire" the women as a surrogate mother. Then when he child is born, he will legally have to have full custody of the baby, and the mother is given visiting rights. So now she has to pay him child support, he has to quit his job, he has to put his career on hold, struggle financially, day in day out.
Let Daddy play the role of Mommy, I put money, that he will not find being a Daddy, a real Daddy all fun and games. After 6 months, he wants her to consent to adoption, she says no. Why should I. You have all the work to do, I only have access and visitation. Why the heck should I consent to adoption, heck, I go to school, I am getting my degree, my career is great and I play Mommy from time to time. Oh by the way, am I behind in my child support. Well the cheque is in the mail.
I think this only sound fair...........if Daddy wants the baby, he can assume full care and expenses for that baby. The women should not be held hostage, her life held hostage to the "whims" of a Daddy.
In a perfect world, women would be paid equal to men, in a perfect world, daycare will be provided free, in a perfect world, men adhere to their legal responsibility, in a perfect world men are "involved" in their child's life, in a perfect world, men pay child support. Too bad we do not live in a perfect world.
catsmeow
Pets are family too.
JMHO.
Separation of church and state.
It is the woman's body. Yes, the man obviously helped create the child but he will not be carrying that child. He will not be going through the 9 months of pregnancy, his life is not going to be turned upside down for those 9 months, his health is not going to be changing, career affected, many, many things happen to a woman's body during this time, emotional, career, health, sometimes they have to miss a lot of work, doctor bills...the father goes on life as normal. His only decision would be to say 'no, I don't want her to have an abortion'???? Then what?
I don't mean to sound horrible about it but I don't think it should be as simple as that, and I DO think it should be the woman's choice, and I say this with heavy sympathy for men because my husband has an ex-wife that is a pain to deal with. I see what he goes through and how many times he just keeps his mouth shut for the sake of his daughter. I know the plight of fathers.
Now that I've said that I do support the pro-choice stand, I will also say that I do not agree with abortion when it is oft used as a birth control method. This makes me sad.
As for the facing an angry God part, lest we forget that our God is a forgiving, merciful God. (that is if we worship the same God :innocent: ).
That one confuses me. The life I am pro is the unborn child, how can you share that stance and still be pro taking that life?:waitasec:
Written by someone who seems very angry at men.
"She says: I don't want to be a Mom, I still have my whole life ahead of me, school, career, marriage.".......well, I suppose that she should have taken steps to ensure that she finished school, started her caeer, and got married BEFORE GETTING PREGNANT. You know, it is possible. There is no Amor god of gotta screw non stop until I ruin my life that makes it impossible to abstain. It is possible to set priorities and hold to them. Getting knocked up isn't something that just happens to you like a car accident where it just happens out of the blue.
Installing a society of murder because of someone's lack of planning or self control IMHO is just that...murder.
Your argument is disgustingly poor.
First, plenty of young women have gone on to finish college with an infant. Harder, yes. Impossible, no.
Second, plenty of young women have gone on to lead very nice careers with children. Done every day.
Third, plenty of young women have gone on to marry despite having a child.
Fourth, there are plenty of people who cannot have children that will pay the medical expenses and then some for the young mother to give them her child in adoption after birth.
Fifth, all of the things that you mentioned as impossible have all been done by pregnant women.
You act as if the only option is to kill a human being when a young woman becomes pregnant at an inconvenient time. I say that is feminism BS. What a deplorable argument, no offense.
Yes, children are expensive. Yes, daycare is expensive. Yes, food is expensive. Yes yes yes. So I guess that I should just go home and execute both of my kids because they are particularly inconvenient at times and are exceedingly expensive, right? After all, I have kids. Kids are incompatible with life and having a life so they must all die. That's your logic. If my financial circumstances change or I decided that I want to change carreers or I decide that I want to go back to school, then I should have the right to kill my children. Afterall, they are hindering me from my pursuit of happiness. That's it, I am killing the kiddos tonight and will be using their college savings to go on a trip to Rome Italy. I have always wanted to see the Colluseum and the expense of kids is too much, tonight they die and I realize my dream.
However, I will actually agree with you. If the young woman wants an abortion and the father does not, the father should have to cover the medical expenses and then raise the child or adopt it. Absolutely, but I am old fashioned and believe that you should be married before bring chidlren in the world and/or marry her if you knock her up.
Don't kill me. I didn't design this world. But I do believe that God gave life and anyone who aborts a child will have a tough time standing before him.
Cal
Uh-oh. Are you trying to get yet another thread pulled
Hey, I understand that it is inconvenient. No doubt.
Think about this ladies...I am a lone voice in the forest here
. You ladies are all up in arms over the government or even worse A MAN telling you what you can do with your bodies. Yet you have no qualms about telling the Dad of that baby to scew off, I am ripping that child out of my womb. You talk about your rights to not be inconvenienced, what about his rights not to have his child killed. Yeah, I know...not until birth but explain that to the Dad who believes that is his child.As for God, God is not mocked by the modern day feminism. I don't know which God you speak of but my bible says the body is a temple. My bible says that God gives life and takes life. My bible says that God knew you before you were even conceived. My bible says that if a man kills a woman who is pregant, he has killed TWO people. My bible says that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was great with CHILD...not fetus. Yes, God is forgiving for those who ask (I may, perhaps be pushing the boundaries of that edict myself!
:innocent: ) but despite that we will still give an account of deeds done in the body, I believe. Not casting the first religious stone but todays feminism that says "it is a woman's body and a woman's fetus" flies in the face of God. I guess that by a couple of the arguments I have disputed today, if Jesus had waited to be born until 2007 instead of when he was born, he would have been aborted. Mary suffered humiliation...abort him. Mary surely wanted to marry Joesph....abort him. Mary surely might have wanted an education...abort him. Mary has airline tickets to France next spring...abort abort abort. Sad commentary folks.
Cal
Uh-oh. Are you trying to get yet another thread pulled
I am probably going to be murdered before that happens!
I actually edited the comment to smooth it out and remove what looked like a personal attack. That wasn't actually my intention. Apologies to cyberlaw for the temporary harsh post!
Cal
MagicRose99
Watch out for my thorns!
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2006
- Messages
- 4,447
- Reaction score
- 205
When a man can carry and birth a baby in HIS body, he'll then get the right to say whether or not a baby should be born... until then, it's the woman's right to have a baby or not. No man should tell a woman she HAS to carry and birth a baby in HER body, Period.
And if you actually think this'll stop kids from having sex... HA! Get real... this'll just cause more baby dumping/killing.
Lemme add one other thing that no one seems to want to discuss with the young woman who is considering an abortion......the after effects.
I have known two women who had abortions for all the insurmountable reasons quoted above. They are a mess. They have enormous guilt. The constantly obsess about how old the child would be today. They have mucked up sex lives. They have mucked up romantic relationships.
It isn't as easy as...123, rip it out of me...and then on with life.
Yes, there are some capable of never thinking about it again. But there are Masons and Petersons too.
Cal
I have known two women who had abortions for all the insurmountable reasons quoted above. They are a mess. They have enormous guilt. The constantly obsess about how old the child would be today. They have mucked up sex lives. They have mucked up romantic relationships.
It isn't as easy as...123, rip it out of me...and then on with life.
Yes, there are some capable of never thinking about it again. But there are Masons and Petersons too.
Cal
I guess that if you have sex with a man and get pregnant by that man, you give him a say so in the life of the child within you.
Just as when you get married to a person, you give them say in your finances. Just as when you go into a partnership in business, you give that partner say in your business.
Cal
MagicRose99
Watch out for my thorns!
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2006
- Messages
- 4,447
- Reaction score
- 205
Twist all you want... When a MAN can actually CARRY and BIRTH a baby, he'll get the right to determine a child's life... When a man has sex with a girl/woman it's just as much HIS responsiblity as hers to make sure that a baby isn't conceived, unless they are a couple and desire to have a child together. If it's an "accident" then the woman has a right to decide whether she wants to carry, birth and raise this child... NOT the man.
You seem to think that a girl/woman will just accept a man's dictate that she must have his child. What about ILLEGAL abortion? What about having the baby to just dump it in the trash because she never wanted it? What about abandoning all these unwanted children? This proposed law doesn't solve anything... it creates MORE problems, more unwanted children and more murders...
You are right, I don't believe a woman should be able to have an abortion period. Now within the fact that it is legal, I think that the woman should have to get the signature of the father to have it done.
What about illegal abortion? You treat it like any other crime and have appropriate punishments.
I can deal with the illegal abortions, they are against the law and not sainctioned by my Country. The legal abortions are the ones I care about.
Again, you act like the only two options are abortion or abandonment. Hysterical, fallacious argument.
Cal
catsmeow
Pets are family too.
Hey, I understand that it is inconvenient. No doubt.
Think about this ladies...I am a lone voice in the forest here
As for God, God is not mocked by the modern day feminism. I don't know which God you speak of but my bible says the body is a temple. My bible says that God gives life and takes life. My bible says that God knew you before you were even conceived. My bible says that if a man kills a woman who is pregant, he has killed TWO people. My bible says that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was great with CHILD...not fetus. Yes, God is forgiving for those who ask (I may, perhaps be pushing the boundaries of that edict myself!
I guess that by a couple of the arguments I have disputed today, if Jesus had waited to be born until 2007 instead of when he was born, he would have been aborted. Mary suffered humiliation...abort him. Mary surely wanted to marry Joesph....abort him. Mary surely might have wanted an education...abort him. Mary has airline tickets to France next spring...abort abort abort. Sad commentary folks.
Cal
I understand where you are coming from. I know that there ARE men out there that would and DO suffer because of this but I think that there are a greater number of women that would suffer if this bill were passed. I don't by any means say 'hey, go get an abortion!', no way. I think this is something that should only be reserved for extreme cases. Women should ALWAYS be cautious and think of repercussions of having relations outside of a committed relationship, PERIOD, let alone without protection...AS SHOULD THE MAN, this responsibility falls on BOTH.
As for God, when we ask for forgiveness, he cleanses us of our sins. We have accounted for our sins when we ask for forgiveness ( oh goodness, I'm not looking to get into a religious thingy here!
). I'm not saying, don't worry, go out do watcha want and God will forgive you when you're done.I was under the impression that those who believe abortion is a valid choice also did not believe a baby is involved.
MagicRose99
Watch out for my thorns!
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2006
- Messages
- 4,447
- Reaction score
- 205
Then IMO, your "impression" is incorrect... unless you're speaking of when an embryo becomes a child in the womb - that would be up to individuals and their beliefs.
I'm not an advocate of "willy-nilly" abortions, but I do believe a woman should have the right to decide if she's ready to become a mother, if she's financially capable of taking care of this child without gov't help, if she's able to love this child she's carrying. No one should be forced to carry and birth a child that they do not want, especially when the consequences may be too horrid to even contemplate... A man is capable of walking away without a glance, while a woman has this child in her... even if he refuses to "let" her have an abortion, NOTHING makes it his responsiblity to stick around.
If someone is desperate to get rid of a baby and goes to the extreme of an illegal abortion... birth the child and dump it in the garbage bin... birth the child and abandon it ... the law would not be worth it, IMO.
I think that a lot of the women here seem to thing that I oppose a woman having an abortion based on some desire to have a power grab. To enforce my will upon the lowly woman who was victimized.
Well, that couldn't be further from the truth and honestly is nothing more than modern day feminism talking points. Just like screaming racism, it is mean to shut down the opposing side.
I oppose it because it kills a child...period.
Cal
Well, that couldn't be further from the truth and honestly is nothing more than modern day feminism talking points. Just like screaming racism, it is mean to shut down the opposing side.
I oppose it because it kills a child...period.
Cal
tennessee
Blew out my flipflop. Stepped on a pop top . . .
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2004
- Messages
- 1,012
- Reaction score
- 22
I don't understand why anyone else needs to be involved in a private health matter between a patient and their doctor. It really isn't anyone else's business.
Ideally, every conception could be carried to a wonderful birth and there would be no problems and life would be sheer bliss from that moment. However, it doesn't always work that way. Far be it from me to force someone into a situation that they cannot mentally or physically handle.
Sometimes love, compassion and grace are much more effective than hatred, lack of understanding and vulgarity. It also helps to educate and make birth control readily available.
It is very easy to sit in judgement until you have walked a mile in someone else's shoes.
Ideally, every conception could be carried to a wonderful birth and there would be no problems and life would be sheer bliss from that moment. However, it doesn't always work that way. Far be it from me to force someone into a situation that they cannot mentally or physically handle.
Sometimes love, compassion and grace are much more effective than hatred, lack of understanding and vulgarity. It also helps to educate and make birth control readily available.
It is very easy to sit in judgement until you have walked a mile in someone else's shoes.
You ever heard the saying "tell yourself what you have to tell yourself to get by"?
That is what this is.
If a woman ever admitted that a child was a child at conception, then they would be admitting that the abortion made them a murderer (supposing they had an abortion). Faced with the horror of such an admission, they choose to go the route that gives them the conscience out. They want to act like the abortion is nothing more than taking a pan of bread that burnt out of the oven, no different. Just dna in there with no life or soul.
Only, the problem is that no amount of feminism propaganda and chanting about baby at birth is able to quench the firey furnance of the conscience and soul. That is why so many women live a life of depression and problematic relationships....especially when they have children later in life. That's the real untold story is the guilt that they can't get away from because their soul won't let them forget about what they did.
I was talking with a lady once who admitted that she had an abortion. I wasn't judgemental or anything like that. She finally broke down right there in front of me (I hadn't said much to her because the deed was done by that point) and admitted about the guilt and suffering she was going through and it was about 15 years removed.
Cal
There was a case in Canada some time ago, a women was pregnant and her boyfriend "went to court" to get an injunction to stop her from having an abortion. They boyfriend had no involvement in her life. Well before the injunction was overturned, she got an abortion, then the court overturned the injunction. The boyfriend "thought" that of course it would take time to have the injunction overturned, well past the time for a safe and legal abortion. The injunction was overturned, as that was moot. The court ruled that Canada does not force women to have children if they do not choose to do so.
You see OMG women have rights also.
This legislation is just an end run to prevent women from making a choice, her right to choose, her right to privacy, her right to security of the person, her right to liberty.
It will force women to carry the baby to term, if she wants to or not. Can the women without the Fathers consent turn in her unwanted baby to the safe haven network. Or does she need his permission also to do that.
Really Cal, trust me a lot of women feel relief when they have an abortion. A fetus in not viable "human". You put forth the myth that a women feels she is "killing" a human, she is not. That would be your opinion, as also an opinion and myth is that it is "murder". A baby is not a viable human at conception. A women can have a child when she chooses to, not when her body does or when she is forced to. Ask a college student who got her degree, has a career, has a well paying job, friends, a social network and a new husband if she "regrets" her decision. I put money on that she is happy with her life and how it turned out. The people that oppose abortion the most, the Christians and other "die" hard religions. But if you are not religious, many see it is a "mistake" and how that mistake may have affected their entire life. The life that they are living, after they have been born.
Ask the children who are neglected, abused, killed. Those are the parents who are not and were not fit to be parents, but they decided that "abortion" is murder. But gee the child is born to a life of abuse and neglect and then "killed" in a horrible manner. All they know if suffering and pain.
I can't see anything good coming from this...........the religious right have their "biblical" views and the rest of the non religious right have their views.
What about a pregnant woman who has a drug abuse problem. What about the alcoholic. Do you really think that their "children" will be born healthy and normal or suffer life long problems due to the "abuse" during pregnancy.
The cost, in terms of social, medical, LE, victimization of others, court cost, education costs and personal cost to a child born with FAS is in the millions.
http://www.crimetimes.org/95a/w95ap4.htm
Each baby born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) costs society $4 million or more during its lifetime, and it's estimated that FAS costs the United States $6 billion annually. But even these figures, researchers say, may be huge underestimates.
Also I ask the pro life people. Have you driven a pregnant women to a clinic for medical care because she listened to you when you said: Don't have an abortion. Do you provide her with money when she can't work. Do you provide free child care so she can work after the baby is born. Do you give her baby essentials, provide relief so she can "get out for an hour" to take a break from the baby. Will you tutor the kid when they need help in school, new clothes. Do you or will you "co-parent" a child when the girl has no place to live, she can't work and pay her rent. Do you do ANYTHING, at all in a tangible manner to make it easier on her when he listened to you, at the abortion clinic that she "does not have to murder" her baby. You know the threats,m intimidation, assaults, bombing, murders of Doctors, arsons. Do you do anything other then speak, vile caustic language. Do you put your "time, energy, money" where your mouth is by supporting a "desperate" women who decided not to have an abortion because of "your values" and your religious beliefs.
You see OMG women have rights also.
This legislation is just an end run to prevent women from making a choice, her right to choose, her right to privacy, her right to security of the person, her right to liberty.
It will force women to carry the baby to term, if she wants to or not. Can the women without the Fathers consent turn in her unwanted baby to the safe haven network. Or does she need his permission also to do that.
Really Cal, trust me a lot of women feel relief when they have an abortion. A fetus in not viable "human". You put forth the myth that a women feels she is "killing" a human, she is not. That would be your opinion, as also an opinion and myth is that it is "murder". A baby is not a viable human at conception. A women can have a child when she chooses to, not when her body does or when she is forced to. Ask a college student who got her degree, has a career, has a well paying job, friends, a social network and a new husband if she "regrets" her decision. I put money on that she is happy with her life and how it turned out. The people that oppose abortion the most, the Christians and other "die" hard religions. But if you are not religious, many see it is a "mistake" and how that mistake may have affected their entire life. The life that they are living, after they have been born.
Ask the children who are neglected, abused, killed. Those are the parents who are not and were not fit to be parents, but they decided that "abortion" is murder. But gee the child is born to a life of abuse and neglect and then "killed" in a horrible manner. All they know if suffering and pain.
I can't see anything good coming from this...........the religious right have their "biblical" views and the rest of the non religious right have their views.
What about a pregnant woman who has a drug abuse problem. What about the alcoholic. Do you really think that their "children" will be born healthy and normal or suffer life long problems due to the "abuse" during pregnancy.
The cost, in terms of social, medical, LE, victimization of others, court cost, education costs and personal cost to a child born with FAS is in the millions.
http://www.crimetimes.org/95a/w95ap4.htm
Each baby born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) costs society $4 million or more during its lifetime, and it's estimated that FAS costs the United States $6 billion annually. But even these figures, researchers say, may be huge underestimates.
Also I ask the pro life people. Have you driven a pregnant women to a clinic for medical care because she listened to you when you said: Don't have an abortion. Do you provide her with money when she can't work. Do you provide free child care so she can work after the baby is born. Do you give her baby essentials, provide relief so she can "get out for an hour" to take a break from the baby. Will you tutor the kid when they need help in school, new clothes. Do you or will you "co-parent" a child when the girl has no place to live, she can't work and pay her rent. Do you do ANYTHING, at all in a tangible manner to make it easier on her when he listened to you, at the abortion clinic that she "does not have to murder" her baby. You know the threats,m intimidation, assaults, bombing, murders of Doctors, arsons. Do you do anything other then speak, vile caustic language. Do you put your "time, energy, money" where your mouth is by supporting a "desperate" women who decided not to have an abortion because of "your values" and your religious beliefs.