One Killer or More?

[CMan0928]

I like the idea Cman gave, that the GB4 victims knew their killer as a repeat customer. I'll add that they don't just abandon their own customs to accomodate him on the nights of their abductions, but they travel from distances like CT and Maine to meet him. Is that done commonly?

Another thought about the remains: the remains of the mother and child form the outermost markers of the dumping ground, like parentheses. I think that's significant and purposeful on the killer's part. If MV is also LISK, it may send a territorial message. If not, the message may be competitive ('I'm bigger and badder than him,' say).

The GB4 are marked at 500 ft intervals (roughly a tenth of a mile apart, Costello a fifth of a mile west of the others), which may have a significance of its own. I've guessed before that it could indicate he's finding his way along the darkened stretch of road by reading his odometer - so, what about the distances between those and the additional remains? Or the placement of the additional remains vis a vis the distance to the road, versus that of the GB4 (roughly 50 ft north of the road, no?). I haven't looked at these things yet, but a match to that of the GB4 would suggest a link, where a mismatch suggests a different thinking. I suggest it because there's more than one criterion on which to base an unsteady conclusion (but hell, a reason to believe, if you're into that kind of thing). Maybe someone can suggest other logistical ways to measure the area, to narrow down what sub-conscious cues make the GB4 different from the others. Any number of killers is going to be thinking in terms of safety when bodies/remains are dumped.

I really like that odometer theory. From what I understand you can't necessarily freely walk through the brush where the four bodies were found because it's far too dense to do so. So that means he would have had to have judged the distance from inside his vehicle, moving slowly alongside the road to the desired dump site. I highly doubt he was carrying a burlap sack full of human remains in plain sight alongside a main road where he could easily be spotted. He picked his spot, jumped out of the vehicle, unloaded the sack, and took off. The whole process probably took 30 seconds or less if he hustled. Remember, the burlap sacks were found on top of the ground, and not even slightly buried, right? That tells me it was a run and dump type deal. He wasn't going for a scenario where there was no chance these bodies would ever be found, he just wanted them out of sight. Also, keep in mind that these kinds of guys get off on living right under your nose. They like the cat and mouse aspect of the hunt. What better way for these girls to get comfortable with him than for him to build a relationship of sorts with them? Something that took more than one encounter. I'd bet my life at least 2 of the 4 victims found in that area knew him as a repeat customer. And I'm sure whatever he offered to pay these girls was nothing to scoff at, either.

 

[Redbird]

Not to me. Not possible for abunch of serial killers unbeknownst to each other going to the same spot to dump bodies, not just the same spot, but the same two spots. The thought of it makes my head spin.

 

[Seaslug44]

Not to me. Not possible for abunch of serial killers unbeknownst to each other going to the same spot to dump bodies, not just the same spot, but the same two spots. The thought of it makes my head spin.

It has happened more than a few times before in the tristate area.

 

[Maddalenasgirl]

I had a sit down with a psychic about the LISK case. She helped solve a cold case murder and this is what she said:
LISK is brilliant
LISK is rich
LISK lives in a penthouse but moves around a lot
LISK is not a local (I wondered if maybe a second homeowner or seasonal renter)
LISK has international ties
LISK killed Shannan Gilbert

I had the session taped and 4 witnesses to this session.

I realize that many of you may not be open to psyhics. However, this particular one is the real deal and if you have any suggestions about who I should pass this information to, it would be appreciated.

 

[LINative13]

It is my belief that the cops did not search this entire area (the parkway and not Oak Beach itself) as well as they could have. This area along the highway has been a dumping ground since the highway was built. There is a certain period of time when not just this stretch of highway but the surrounding towns were considered the country to people that lived in the city. So naturally, if someone who lived in the city needed to get rid of a body, they would definitely use it and New York City has had its fair share of murders since this highway was built. Samething with the manorville area. As population expands from the city and overflows into the suburbs of Nassau and Suffolk county. So with the same reasoning as above.....if people from the babylon/huntington/nassau area needed to get rid of a body they would go out to the country, which to them was considered the manorville area (but this post is about Ocean Parkway because I am alot more familiar with it.)

So if cops really dug into this area (ocean parkway).....say for example burned all the vegetation and ripped into the ground (dont forget the dunes shift and there is contstant erosion and deposits of sand by the wind and tide) they would be pulling dozens and dozens of bodies/bone fragments out of there. This area is like a bone fragment pandoras box. Correct if I am worng but once the police find a bone or something don't they have to by law take some kind of record keeping(even if they do not pursue every case) of bones found? This would entail an extensive and expensive amount of police work to a already financially strapped county.:banghead:

 

[Tugela]

If there are six killers, then technically speaking we have actually two serial killers (Killer #1 & Killer #2) and both of them are targeting prostitutes. This plays back into my theory how this case is going to go cold again very quickly. The Manorville butcher case (killer #2) continues to be a cold case because nobody seems to care about the two victims to put any pressure on the investigators to solve the cases. The GB4 case will most likely follow in the same footsteps as the AC serial killer case where time just flies by with no new leads. Chances are that (like AC) the killer came to town, killed the four girls and moved on to another town where he probably is doing the same. With no more bodies showing up and no more prostitutes missing from the Long Island area the pressure is off of the investigators because the public doesn't feel threatened.

It is not that LE doesn't care, the problem is that because of the secretive lives these girls lead, it is extremely difficult to find out anything at all about the victims last hours.

That is why these cases very often go unsolved, at last until there are enough bodies to start making some sort of connections and even then investigators have to get lucky.

 

[LINative13]

As far as the public feeling threatened.....you want to hear the sick thing? People are pretty oblivious to it. This killer has not taken the mayor of babylons daughter. He has killed prostitues (with the exception of Amber) are not local people. I have heard people joke about it in public while out on the town. Making burlap remarks, or one time a female friend of mine was dating a new guy, one of our friends made a remark "better be careful with him or you will end up at gilgo" The non chalant attitude is pretty gross if you ask me. I have made mistakes and life style choices in my life (some could be considired life threatening) we all do. Noone deserves to be choked to death over them.

 

[Fritewig]

CMan, if you're right about victims being repeat customers (I agree) and the sums of money he offered, then the GB4 killer can put his money where his mouth is - he's paid them outrageous sums before. Maybe that's why Ms. Waterman came all the way down from Maine (unless someone knows more about this?). That and the "security" of being familiar with the john contributed to their willingness to leave their cellphones behind, when he made up whatever complaint he used to justify it.

If true, the GB4 killer is no landscaper. He's a man of means and some style. If married, then he is expected to be home late in the warm months; if single, he's at liberty (and there'd be no one to notice the late nights/regular nights hours he kept).

Whoever it is and however he's doing it, it's a comfortable routine for him, IMO.

Theforeigner has an interesting opinion of who exactly he thinks it is - construction is an angle to look into, IMO.

 

[CMan0928]

CMan, if you're right about victims being repeat customers (I agree) and the sums of money he offered, then the GB4 killer can put his money where his mouth is - he's paid them outrageous sums before. Maybe that's why Ms. Waterman came all the way down from Maine (unless someone knows more about this?). That and the "security" of being familiar with the john contributed to their willingness to leave their cellphones behind, when he made up whatever complaint he used to justify it.

If true, the GB4 killer is no landscaper. He's a man of means and some style. If married, then he is expected to be home late in the warm months; if single, he's at liberty (and there'd be no one to notice the late nights/regular nights hours he kept).

Whoever it is and however he's doing it, it's a comfortable routine for him, IMO.

Theforeigner has an interesting opinion of who exactly he thinks it is - construction is an angle to look into, IMO.

Yup. These girls were professionals. They weren't out there trying to find a love connection with their clients. They were there for one reason, and that's money. And the only reason I mentioned the likely large amounts he was paying wasn't only because he had these girls traveling great distances to meet up with him, but because they were changing their patterns for him. That's key here.

 

[ynotdivein]

Yup. These girls were professionals. They weren't out there trying to find a love connection with their clients. They were there for one reason, and that's money. And the only reason I mentioned the likely large amounts he was paying wasn't only because he had these girls traveling great distances to meet up with him, but because they were changing their patterns for him. That's key here.

According to NESN, Megan Waterman had made several trips to NY, so maybe they weren't changing patterns to meet him, but he was taking advantage of the patterns they had established?

http://www.necn.com/01/19/11/Body-found-on-beach-identified-as-missin/landing_newengland.html?blockID=394201&feedID=4206

NESN from 1-19-11

(NECN: Amy Sinclair) - A body found on a Long Island beach has been has been identified as that of a missing 22-year-old woman from Scarborough, Maine. Megan Waterman is the victim of a possible serial killer.

Waterman who lived in Scarborough, Maine went to New York every few months with boyfriend Akeem Cruz to work as an escort on Craig's list. <snip, more at link>

 

[shadowraiths]

but they travel from distances like CT and Maine to meet him.

Not quite.

Barnes regularly traveled to and stayed in NYC to turn tricks. Barnes' last communication originated from the Port Authority Bus Terminal, wherein she claimed she had been robbed and was on her way home. She was never heard from again. ( link )

Waterman regularly traveled with her pimp to Long Island to turn tricks. She advertised on both CL & BP prior to checking in at the Holiday Inn Express in Hauppauge ( link ).

The GB4 are marked at 500 ft intervals (roughly a tenth of a mile apart, Costello a fifth of a mile west of the others), which may have a significance of its own.

The "500 ft intervals" has been debunked. ( [ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164894]link[/ame] )

 

[CMan0928]

According to NESN, Megan Waterman had made several trips to NY, so maybe they weren't changing patterns to meet him, but he was taking advantage of the patterns they had established?

http://www.necn.com/01/19/11/Body-found-on-beach-identified-as-missin/landing_newengland.html?blockID=394201&feedID=4206

NESN from 1-19-11

(NECN: Amy Sinclair) - A body found on a Long Island beach has been has been identified as that of a missing 22-year-old woman from Scarborough, Maine. Megan Waterman is the victim of a possible serial killer.

Waterman who lived in Scarborough, Maine went to New York every few months with boyfriend Akeem Cruz to work as an escort on Craig's list. <snip, more at link>

Possibly, but I doubt it. Waterman is a bad example. She seemingly just disappeared from that Holiday Inn. Maybe she ran into the killer outside of the hotel and was forced to accompany him, and then killed. Or maybe she was propositioned by the killer, whom she already knew as a repeat customer, and felt comfortable enough with him to break her own pattern and leave her belongings in her hotel room to accompany the killer for a quick "date". It's impossible to know what happened. But I think whoever murdered her knew she was in town at that Holiday Inn, probably from seeing her ad on CL, and just happened to show up at the right time. This guy is no dummy. He's doing his research and he's very careful.

 

[TheTaskmaster]

Possibly, but I doubt it. Waterman is a bad example. She seemingly just disappeared from that Holiday Inn. Maybe she ran into the killer outside of the hotel and was forced to accompany him, and then killed. Or maybe she was propositioned by the killer, whom she already knew as a repeat customer, and felt comfortable enough with him to break her own pattern and leave her belongings in her hotel room to accompany the killer for a quick "date". It's impossible to know what happened. But I think whoever murdered her knew she was in town at that Holiday Inn, probably from seeing her ad on CL, and just happened to show up at the right time. This guy is no dummy. He's doing his research and he's very careful.

I have to agree that the LISK was a repeat customer who she had to be familiar with and that she quietly left without her phone as a means of ripping off her pimp. The LISK may have contacted her in a more private way either through private email(not associated with craigslist email as that is the pimp's account) or through the hotel phone and she attempted to leave without a trace. This can only be done if he had previously visited her. This way she could keep more of the cut without having to pay off her pimp. She agreed to meet him for a quick cardate as you said and then simply disappeared. IMO all of these girls vanished during cardates and not during visits to hotels\homes\etc.

 

[Jersey*Girl]

But... If the LISK is a repeat customer, why would he take a chance on the kill knowing there's a possibility one of these girls could have kept a little black book? These notebooks aren't just for phone numbers. They're used to describe their repeat johns, ie appearance, fetish, drug user, etc.

 

[Just K]

Question: With the women who worked out of hotels/motels, like MW & MBB, did they register under their real names, their bf/pimp's name or a "friend's" name?

What keeps coming back is that AC declined to meet a "client" at that same Holiday Inn Express.

Most of the girls advertised on CL & BP using names like "Chloe, Carolina, etc. "
But, what name did they stay at hotels under?

Pre-Shannan G
MB was last seen, IIRC, sitting on the curb, outside her apartment/home. (It is assumed she left with phone her phone...unless someone went into her home afterward and took her phone or just spoofed her phone number.) She was "secretive" about where she was going, said her bf/pimp?

MBB was last seen near the Port Authority. She usually did "in calls." She called someone and said she was on her way home. (Had her own phone???)

Post Shannan G
MW was last seen near the parking lot of the hotel. She told no one, including her bf/pimp, where she was going. She usually did "in calls."(No phone)

ACC was last seen walking down to the corner to meet someone in a car. She told no one, including her "roommate", DS or her BF, where she was going. She usually did "in calls." (No phone)

 

[rodent69]

ACC was last seen walking down to the corner to meet someone in a car. (No phone)

Amber Costello's rule about staying out of a john's car came after a brutal lesson. Her roommate Schaller, who helped her with clients, said he could recall her getting into a man's car only once -- after their session was over and he offered her a ride to a convenience store. "She called me from the side of the Southern State Parkway. Her head was bleeding," Schaller recalled. "He had punched her three times in the face and left her on the side of the road."

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/did-gilgo-victims-let-their-guards-down-1.2950472?print=true

 

[rodent69]

Kind of off topic to the thread, but I recently read that statement and wanted to highlight how abnormal that was for her.

 

[Fritewig]

Wow, I'm glad I posted to this again! Thank you for the update, I was beginning to take the odometer thing for fact. Also helpful to know that the distances traveled were not out of the norm for the victims.

Jersey Girl - I wonder how common that is, to keep a john journal. Do we know if any existed for Costello or the others? Do we know of any victims who boasted of having made a lot off of "some guy?" If there was, I could easily see the contents being withheld by LE. On the other hand, what SK's were ever worried about what might be in a journal?

 

[Just K]

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/did-gilgo-victims-let-their-guards-down-1.2950472?print=true

Thanks, that is the first time I have seen that comment. i knew that she usually had men come to her house and that she and her sister went to "parties" to work but I hadn't read about her being left, beaten on the Southern State Pkwy. I did hear about Johns complaining, on either BP or UG, about her roommates and a possible scam where Johns paid but did not receive and one supposed incidence where a john ran out of the house naked after being chased by a guy with a bat.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Question: With the women who worked out of hotels/motels, like MW & MBB, did they register under their real names, their bf/pimp's name or a "friend's" name?

What keeps coming back is that AC declined to meet a "client" at that same Holiday Inn Express.

Most of the girls advertised on CL & BP using names like "Chloe, Carolina, etc. "
But, what name did they stay at hotels under?

Pre-Shannan G
MB was last seen, IIRC, sitting on the curb, outside her apartment/home. (It is assumed she left with phone her phone...unless someone went into her home afterward and took her phone or just spoofed her phone number.) She was "secretive" about where she was going, said her bf/pimp?

MBB was last seen near the Port Authority. She usually did "in calls." She called someone and said she was on her way home. (Had her own phone???)

Post Shannan G
MW was last seen near the parking lot of the hotel. She told no one, including her bf/pimp, where she was going. She usually did "in calls."(No phone)

ACC was last seen walking down to the corner to meet someone in a car. She told no one, including her "roommate", DS or her BF, where she was going. She usually did "in calls." (No phone)

Maureen did have her phone on her. Her cell phone pinged off a cell tower near GB in 2008. Someone was trying to access her voicemail. She went missing in 2007.