OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - Part #11

[gibby207]

Gosh, I better run right out and marry a police officer before something happens to one of my family members then.

Not sniping at you, Gibby, but that's just irritating if it's true.

I totally get your point...

 

[pdx]

Is school still in session there? We've been out since the end of May here, and I was assuming that the semester had ended there already.

School finishes next week, but IDK which day. I just know I have a deadline to meet with the asst principal of my elementary school! eek

PPS/Portland Public Schools' website will probably tell you.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

I'm not sure why him being close to the family would be considered a bad thing? :waitasec:

He needs to be objective and look at all possiblities.I hope other people, FBI are investigating this case too.

 

[BeanE]

Thanks for the correction, BeanE! I'm going to post the link:

http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/n...d-Horman/TVY3YTREG0SyCP3tb3MkZg.cspx?rss=1100

It is a statement from a school official. NOT LE! That was my bad!! It does confirm there were no substitutes on the grounds that day.

I have not read anything to say there were volunteers at the school that day, but it is not unreasonable to think that there were volunteers.....nor is it unreasonable to think that a second grader would assume that a classroom volunteer was a substitute, except if his actual teacher remained in the classroom all day. That didn't explain my thoughts well, let me try again.

I was Class Mom for a fourth grade class one year. When the teacher had to "step out" for a short time, such as to judge projects in a science fair, I sat with the class during her absence. The teacher never left the school grounds, I was not paid to sit with the class, and all the students knew I was a mom.......but those kids were two years more school savvy than 2nd graders!

As class mom, I also accompanied the students and teachers on occasion---to the gym to see older student's science fair projects, or on field trips. In both of those situations, I was expected to help the teacher keep a head count of students. I do believe this child when he says he saw Kyron---he has multiple witnesses to verify that Kyron was indeed at school that morning. I also believe that the child could have overheard a volunteer saying "We're missing Kyron."

While semantics may not be important, I do think if a volunteer told the teacher a child hadn't returned to the classroom, it is "possible" the teacher did not pay as much attention to her as she would have to another paid teacher----regardless, we do know that there was no actual substitue in the classroom that day, and so far, we don't know (at least I don't!) that there were unpaid volunteers in the classroom.

It's been in articles about the volunteers because of the issue that they didn't all have to have background checks and didn't have to wear ID badges or sign in that day.

 

[Money Girl]

Wonder if the school has been thoroughly searched? Every nook and cranny?

 

[raeann]

I have kept up with all of the posts since Kyron went missing, but haven't posted because frankly I have no information and few insights of much value to add to the discussion. With that disclaimer given, I have just a few comments.

As an elementary school teacher, I know it would be a teacher's worst nightmare to have a child under your care go missing. I have read no news accounts that would indicate that the classroom teacher was put on any type of administrative or disciplinary leave. She has had to continue getting up each morning to go to work, as hard as that must be. My point is, it doesn't seem the school district is upset with the teacher, so the accounts of her just blowing off the fact that Kyron was not with the group do not ring true to me.

While Kyron's science display was visually quite impressive, from what I could tell it was just informational and did not involve an experiment or the use of the scientific method (observation, hypothesis, experiment, analysis to support or reject hypothesis...). I know that in my school these items must be included for projects even at the primary level. I have no knowledge what the requirements were at Skyline, but if they were also supposed to use the scientific method and an older student pointed that out to Kyron, would that have made him mad or upset enough to run off or hide?

Another thought for what it is worth, I can remember once long ago, my friend and I wanted to go to the store with my older sister and she said we couldn't go with her. So we just got in the backseat of her car anyway before she got in the car and hid under blankets behind the driver's and passenger's seats. She didn't know we were there until our giggles gave us away. I doubt we were the first or last kids to hide in a car this way.

Keep up the prayers and good thoughts for this sweetie and his family.

You are correct about what most science fair projects require. That is why there gets to be so much misunderstanding, because the fact here that most people continue to ignore is that it was NOT a science fair in the first place. It was an IB expo! The point seems to have been to display things that had been studied with a bit of further individual exploration of the topic that the student had chosen. Since it was an IB expo, there was most likely no judging involved. In fact, there is a link that has been posted numerous time where one of the moms describes not really paying attention to who was familiar or not because she was helping her child fill out the EVALUATION sheet. Those are done for the teachers to provide an evaluation of the work and possibly a grade. In the long run......what should be done here is to add the whole science fair thing to the list of RUMORS. The sign in front of the school did NOT say science fair....it said IB expo......some of the projects may very well have been history or foreign language projects and not science at all.

jmoo

edit to add.....I totally agree with your post....no one probably feels worse than the teacher about this event. I am sorry that so many have implied that she may have somehow been involved, as there has been no indication of that at all from LE or anyone else.

 

[pdx]

Wonder if the school has been thoroughly searched? Every nook and cranny?

Three separate searches so far, according to MSCO.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The job of the police liason is to coordinate communication between the family and the investigators. Nothing more. It is not their job to run interference between the public (family) and the press, or to be image consultants. If the family wants that, they need to hire a press agency and a spokesperson.

I know this because I was a victim advocate for years.

Are you saying this Captain is not doing his job?

Since he has been doing this for days now with the Sheriff standing right there beside him then I imagine they have a different take on what their responsibilities are. Mostly he answered the questions that the reporters had asked then addressed the issue on refocusing the case in the right direction and back on finding Kyron.

What he said about the family getting out and trying to do normal things is not uncommon knowledge anyway. Most advocate sites set up for parents who have missing children tell them the same thing so I really don't see what the big deal is.

IMO

 

[SuziQ]

Suzi can you help me here? I am so lost as to what you guys are struggling with. I am unclear as to what you are referring to. It is going right over my head.

I was responding in general to posts that talked about media being controlled or guided by people in control of information. The media helps keep them honest. I have no idea if that's the case here. Just gave a reason why it's not good for the public if there is a controlled media.

 

[pdx]

You are correct about what most science fair projects require. That is why there gets to be so much misunderstanding because the fact here that most people continue to ignore is that it was NOT a science fair in the first place. It was an IB expo! The point seems to have been to display things that had been studied with a bit of further individual exploration of the topic that the student had chosen. Since it was an IB expo, there was most likely no judging involved. In fact, there is a link that has been posted numerous time where one of the mom's describes not really paying attention to who was familiar or not because she was helping her child fill out the EVALUATION sheet. Those are done for the teachers to provide an evaluation of the work and possibly a grade. In the long run......what should be done here is to add the whole science fair thing to the list of RUMORS[/B]. The sign in front of the school did NOT say science fair....it said IB expo......some of the projects may very well have been history or foreign language projects and not science at all.

jmoo

Thank you, thank you, thank you!
It gets very frustrating to read the same misinformation over and over again.


The other one that's bugging me is the coat/backpack. Has it been confirmed that they were left at school, prompting cries of 'cover up' and "CYA" about the school? Yeah, didn't think so.

 

[CharlestonGal]

It's been in articles about the volunteers because of the issue that they didn't all have to have background checks and didn't have to wear ID badges or sign in that day.

Yes, as I recall parent volunteers were leading the student groups around the exhibits. Please don't ask me for a link right now. I might have a mental break.

 

[Forensic fan]

Since there seems to be no new info, I will share my experience from my daughter's school "carnival" day yesterday. I was extra observant given Kyron's disappearance from school.

Adults walked in and out of the school freely from all doors. Some signed in, as I did, but most just came and went as they pleased. My daughter's 1st grade teacher gave me responsibility for four children, including my own. I know these kids only by first name, and they know me only as "A's Mom". I took these kids all over the back grounds of the school. I could have easily put them in my truck and left and noone would have noticed for hours. I even signed my daughter out for 3 o'clock at 1 o'clock in the afternoon. Around 2pm I saw a little boy fall by the water hose and hit his hip on the pavement. A teacher who was running the hose told him to go to the nurse with his "buddy". The boys had to be 5yo and seemed scared/injured/nervous/uncertain so I offered to take them inside. She never asked me my name, who I was, or anything, just let me take them. I walked the boys, along with my four charges, to the nurse's office and explained what happened. I could have stolen those boys along with the four I already had, but instead, since I am not some crazed lunatic, I left and took my four back outside to play. Most of the kids were unsupervised by any adult specifically. They just ran around from station to station as they pleased. School is K-3 but there were many older siblings at the event as well.

Had I not been there, my 7yo daughter would have been supervised by a stranger. If she had been injured, she would have been taken to the nurse by a stranger. If that stranger wanted to steal her, she/he could have without anyone even wondering where she went. Actually at one point I walked by a classroom where a baby in a stroller was outside in the hall completely unsupervised. I could have stolen her too if I wanted. My truck only seats eight though, so that would have been my limit for the day.

Needless to say, I was appalled by the scenario, completely appalled! I am a hover-mother, so I am at almost every event. After yesterday, I most definitely will be at every event until she is at least 30yo.

That was scary but hilarious the way you told it!

 

[kgeaux]

He's called Kyron "our boy," --has taken on the plural possessive in many instances in the discussion of Kyron and the family.

I have seen and heard police officers say things like this many, many times. Cops are people. Kyron is an innocent, cute and precious child. His step-father is a police official. While these things may come together to make LE feel especially involved in this case, it does not necessarily follow that they will be sloppy about investigating or inclined to give family members a free pass. In fact, the more they identify with and "adopt" Kyron, the more they should want to solve his disappearance.

So they are not going to search those places??? I would be going back with a warrant.

You need probable cause to get a search warrant. It would probably be easier for LE to get a document from the prosecutors or whoever that no action will be taken against landowners EXCEPT if evidence is found showing they've participated in Kyron's disappearance. That way meth makers and pot growers might relax and let LE on their property!

Police should always be professional and courteous when dealing with the public. But their job is to remain objective, maintain law and order, and investigate crimes. They are not social workers or victim advocates, nor should they try to be. There job is to INVESTIGATE, not sit around and pat people on the shoulder saying "there-there, honey" and protect them from legitimate questions from the press.

I do not see that these officials are acting unprofessionally. They've stated that all family members are cooperating, and we don't know (at least I don't!) that the questions chosen to be answered were chosen on the basis of protecting Kyron's family from legitimate questions.

Is that a problem? I think that is standard so I am confused as to the "too close"?? Sheriff Carona practically adopted Samantha Runnion and took her murder in the most personal way.

I'm right there with you, JBean. I don't see a problem either!

Why is this such a huge conflict? Mom said she did some laminating and helped with another part of the project and perhaps Dad helped with the research or constructing the Diorama. It's very obvious to me this family does a lot of activities together. I've seen the pics of the models Kaine and Kyron enjoyed doing together, so it would make sense that they would work together on the frog project as well. The purpose of these projects on a second grade level (from my experience) are for kids to learn new info, set up standards for how school work should be done (carefully and with a lot of thought behind the presentation), and a sense of accomplishment when hard work produces a great result. How much do we really think a second grader is capable of doing all on his own?

Unless SM said "I and I alone helped with the science project" then I don't see a conflict, either. What on earth would be so strange about both SM and Dad helping? Why would the fact that one helped "conflict" with the fact that the other helped too?

Perhaps because the more people become obsessed with the witchhunt of the stepmom, the less attention they'll pay to other people and other events and other memories and other information that could lead to finding Kyron, and it thereby impacts the chances and speed with which Kyron can be rescued.

Time is running out. Kyron's time. They need people to think of everything and everybody and every place to try to find some lead.

Thank you for saying this. I wanted to say the same, but couldn't have voiced it so well.

You must be in a small district or that may have been a few years ago because now - with the liability laws and situations such as we have right here, the teacher that would "step out" and leave you there wouldn't be teaching in this district too much longer. We even have "classifications of paras" here. A teacher's aide CANNOT be left alone with children but a teacher's assistant can.

The comment from the SAR lady - "well we know where he isn't" - but then didn't she go on to say that they may search an area up to three times? Ground, dogs, ground again, air..... So why keep going over areas where he isn't then?

I was not a para or an aide. I was a parent volunteer. It is STILL legal here! And my district is probably about average, not too big, not too small. The teacher I mentioned, as well as every other teacher in the school, arranged for the class moms to stay with the classroom students with full knowledge of the school principal......and school board!

Gosh, I better run right out and marry a police officer before something happens to one of my family members then.

Not sniping at you, Gibby, but that's just irritating if it's true.

Members of LE WILL get special attention when something happens to a family member.......it's just natural that "we" help one of "our own." HOWEVER, LE doesn't give ANYONE a free pass to commit crimes. Even one of their own! It just stands to reason that if Kyron's step-father is knowledgeable about the different services available to victims, he will ensure that those services are provided, doesn't it?

I just do not see LE acting in any way that makes me believe that they are refusing to investigate family members.

 

[scandi]

I'm not sure why him being close to the family would be considered a bad thing? :waitasec:

As long as that officer maintains his objectivity, right?

 

[RubyRed]

Since there seems to be no new info, I will share my experience from my daughter's school "carnival" day yesterday. I was extra observant given Kyron's disappearance from school.

Adults walked in and out of the school freely from all doors. Some signed in, as I did, but most just came and went as they pleased. My daughter's 1st grade teacher gave me responsibility for four children, including my own. I know these kids only by first name, and they know me only as "A's Mom". I took these kids all over the back grounds of the school. I could have easily put them in my truck and left and noone would have noticed for hours. I even signed my daughter out for 3 o'clock at 1 o'clock in the afternoon. Around 2pm I saw a little boy fall by the water hose and hit his hip on the pavement. A teacher who was running the hose told him to go to the nurse with his "buddy". The boys had to be 5yo and seemed scared/injured/nervous/uncertain so I offered to take them inside. She never asked me my name, who I was, or anything, just let me take them. I walked the boys, along with my four charges, to the nurse's office and explained what happened. I could have stolen those boys along with the four I already had, but instead, since I am not some crazed lunatic, I left and took my four back outside to play. Most of the kids were unsupervised by any adult specifically. They just ran around from station to station as they pleased. School is K-3 but there were many older siblings at the event as well.

Had I not been there, my 7yo daughter would have been supervised by a stranger. If she had been injured, she would have been taken to the nurse by a stranger. If that stranger wanted to steal her, she/he could have without anyone even wondering where she went. Actually at one point I walked by a classroom where a baby in a stroller was outside in the hall completely unsupervised. I could have stolen her too if I wanted. My truck only seats eight though, so that would have been my limit for the day.

Needless to say, I was appalled by the scenario, completely appalled! I am a hover-mother, so I am at almost every event. After yesterday, I most definitely will be at every event until she is at least 30yo.

Thanks for sharing that TripleA, It gave me a bit of a chuckle.

 

[mommya]

Well today I am having some different thoughts about what could have happened to Kyron.

Do you think we would have heard leaks by now if this was thought to be another Elzabeth Olten type case? We did hear the leaks then - but not now.

Anyway - I've been thinking another student - older.

I've been thinking about that rumor - where the 13 yr. old from Skyline commented on another site that they (students I assume) have suspicions and know things, most of which they've told LE.

I thought - hmmn - what could she and other students "know" about the family or a stranger really? Not much probably - but what they do know about is each other - fellow students.

What if we've got some mentally troubled kid who has shown signs like writing disturbing stories or creating disturbing drawings. The kids (some) would know about this other kid's proclivities.

What if that kid was even unnaccounted for for a while that day at some point? I bet the older kids did not have to break into chaperoned groups.

Maybe said kid even admits to having seen Kyron that day.

LE (and teachers and staff) would have a good idea that this person acted - and did something to or with Kyron - they just don't really know what specifically happened.

Maybe they know the kid was just gone till the talent show or somesuch - therefor he could have only gotten so far - like a two mile radius.

LE would have to tread lightly so as to not scare the kids and school personel into silence.

Those are my thoughts for now.

 

[pdx]

People do not need to witchhunt the SM or bash her in any way.But I do feel they need to investigate her.

"People" need to investigate her, or law enforcement needs to investigate her?
Why do you think LE has not investigated her?

If it is that obvious to us (and every idjit writing on message board and media comments all over the web) don't you think it would be obvious to the people who do this for a living/career?

I'm just sayin'... just because WE do not know and can not find out all this information doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Believe, I understand the frustration, and I am no apologist for the LE (all agencies here have made big mistakes over the years) but the idea that just because we do not have the information = the information does not exist doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[BeanE]

The job of the police liason is to coordinate communication between the family and the investigators. Nothing more. It is not their job to run interference between the public (family) and the press, or to be image consultants. If the family wants that, they need to hire a press agency and a spokesperson.

I think we're going to be seeing more and more of LE stepping in these cases with witchunts. People are vicious. We have one case on here where the chief of LE had to issue a public statement about it. I've seen multiple cases where the families had to, on top of dealing with their tragedy and trauma, retain attornies because of the vicious harrassment. In another case, someone harrassing from the missing person FB page had to be arrested.

All this interferes with the investigation, and with helping the victim.

 

[Emma Peel]

Re: emotionally invested LE family and media liasons

Call me pollyanna, but I'm thinking we don't get to have Press Conferences with the investigative hard-arses.

I'm thinking they have the LE family liason person(s) who is the family's advocate and helps them understand the process, manage logistics, get answers, etc.. It's sort of a social service role...

And then they have the SAR/LE media-managers and their job is to use the media as necessary, or keep the media at bay, stay on message, protect the investigation, get appropriate publicity...

After those two roles are filled - We have numerous additional LE & FBI all over this thing - folks that we don't even know about.

Surely they are not all pushovers. That's my thinking anyway...

 

[daisy7]

As long as that officer maintains his objectivity, right?

Yes, but is there any reason to believe he is not?