GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #5

[Glow]

I've read the entire document. I've followed this case from the beginning but have held off commenting when the topics mainly revolved around supporting the confessed killer.

I understand and agree. Fortunately, time and cooler heads prevailed and we are making progress as a group now. I am so glad you came back and posted:twocents:

Look forward to talking with you.

 

[Xavier]

I believe that the Gresham KH meets on Sundays and Tuesdays. I am not sure what "Irregular Attendee" means either, since I have never attended a congregation meeting before. It might mean that Regular Attendees are required to go to both meetings every week, and "Irregular Attendees" are sporadic attenders as you had mentioned above.

From the evidence that I have gathered, JH most likely converted to JW to marry AH. I noticed a photo from an unnamed local source, of one of JH's parents wearing a cross pendant. JWs do not wear crosses or have crosses inside their KH. So from what I have gathered, is it is likely JH, grew up in a different religion, or at least had a parent from a different religion. This might explain the "Irregular Attendee" statement. It is different if you grow up in a certain religion or belief system, than if you are newly converted. Growing up in one, and being exposed to it, means it has already been an integrated part of your life. Converting to a different belief system, or even a new job for that matter, requires you to learn a new culture, as well as learn how to operate within that new system. From a Psychological standpoint, there might have been problems with JH adapting to a new set of rules and expectations. Everything might have been different, from what he was used to growing up. There is a learning curve with any big change in life such as jobs, religion or even getting married. Within a two year time period, JH most likely changed religions, got married, had many jobs, went to school, moved a few times and I am sure the list goes on. "Irregular Attendee" might mean that JH had went against the system and refused to change, as he had shown in the other areas of his life.

One term that comes to mind is "Cognitive Dissonance".

"Dissonance theory suggests that if individuals act in ways that contradict their beliefs, then they typically will change their beliefs to align with their actions (or vice-a-versa)."
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/10/19/fighting-cognitive-dissonance-the-lies-we-tell-ourselves/


If JH did not find his wife, new church, employers or even society in support of his actions (like child *advertiser censored*), then he most likely turned to the internet to find people that supported this type of dysfunctional behavior. It seems that JH created his own belief system, away from any church. He seemed to go to church when he wanted to, worked when he wanted to and spent money how he wanted to without regard for the people around him. With his new belief system, he most likely spent all of his time with his online *advertiser censored* and his online contacts that fed and supported his addiction. Both JH and his wife probably had little financial security because of this. JH went from job to job, and probably quit trying to secure a position as an EMT. Fantasy seemed to take over reality in JH's new (self-made) belief system.

I agree with your thinking SasQuatch.

Holt had "loose associations/beliefs" and to me Holt was a picker and chooser of what, when was more convenient to him, sort of the "Cafeteria/Buffet Line" variety.

I think Holt's drifting away from the church/faith maybe too was from his wife's church friends who maybe heard about her husband's laziness, lack of drive, arguments,etc and going to the services became uncomfortable to see these people on a "regular" basis

 

[Glow]

I agree with your thinking SasQuatch.

Holt had "loose associations/beliefs" and to me Holt was a picker and chooser of what, when was more convenient to him, sort of the "Cafeteria/Buffet Line" variety.

I think Holt's drifting away from the church/faith maybe too was from his wife's church friends who maybe heard about her husband's laziness, lack of drive, arguments,etc and going to the services became uncomfortable to see these people on a "regular" basis

Makes sense. Also, if Amber went and he "stayed home" that gave him free time to be unaccounted for. Time to download *advertiser censored*. Time to watch it. Time to go prowl around the Heichels apartment alone without Amber knowing it.... etc....

 

[caffeinejean]

I believe that the Gresham KH meets on Sundays and Tuesdays. I am not sure what "Irregular Attendee" means either, since I have never attended a congregation meeting before. It might mean that Regular Attendees are required to go to both meetings every week, and "Irregular Attendees" are sporadic attenders as you had mentioned above.

From the evidence that I have gathered, JH most likely converted to JW to marry AH. I noticed a photo from an unnamed local source, of one of JH's parents wearing a cross pendant. JWs do not wear crosses or have crosses inside their KH. So from what I have gathered, is it is likely JH, grew up in a different religion, or at least had a parent from a different religion. This might explain the "Irregular Attendee" statement.
snipped for space
Fantasy seemed to take over reality in JH's new (self-made) belief system.

In regards to the irregular attendee label, I believe that would be put on someone who was not there about as often as they were there.
snipped for space
It is the person who decides to miss cause they just don't feel like going, who gets into the habit of staying home as much or more than they go. Often times it is the person that you are surprised to see walk through the door. Those are your irregular attendees.

First, my first impressions of the "Irregular Attendee" statement from a representative of the KH was released so quickly after the arrest of JH, I immediately thought it was more a tactic for the church to distance themselves from a self confessed killer... regardless of what "irregular" means.

Second, my impression was that JH married his long time girlfriend, (no reliable sources other than hearing it) and probably met her through a church function. JH and AH went to different high schools and yet were said to be long time sweethearts. By all accounts, JH was said to be a loner, where else could he meet someone he could be comfortable with. Also, I basically assumed he had been involved with his church for many years and part of the religion as part of the family life too. But, I haven't been privy to anything but hear-say!!! JMO !!!

Anyway, maybe he became "Irregular", but to me it just sounds like "Clinton Speak"... a reply that means nothing except to evade the question!

 

[caffeinejean]

From the evidence that I have gathered, JH most likely converted to JW to marry AH. I noticed a photo from an unnamed local source, of one of JH's parents wearing a cross pendant. JWs do not wear crosses or have crosses inside their KH. So from what I have gathered, is it is likely JH, grew up in a different religion, or at least had a parent from a different religion.

Good post and some useful information, respectfully snipped by me.

Hi Sasquatch, Don't know if you feel comfortable answering this, but it begs the questions.... Male or Female parent? How old is the photo?

We could open up a whole new can of worms:worms:

 

[newsjunkie]

First, my first impressions of the "Irregular Attendee" statement from a representative of the KH was released so quickly after the arrest of JH, I immediately thought it was more a tactic for the church to distance themselves from a self confessed killer... regardless of what "irregular" means.

Second, my impression was that JH married his long time girlfriend, (no reliable sources other than hearing it) and probably met her through a church function. JH and AH went to different high schools and yet were said to be long time sweethearts. By all accounts, JH was said to be a loner, where else could he meet someone he could be comfortable with. Also, I basically assumed he had been involved with his church for many years and part of the religion as part of the family life too. But, I haven't been privy to anything but hear-say!!! JMO !!!

Anyway, maybe he became "Irregular", but to me it just sounds like "Clinton Speak"... a reply that means nothing except to evade the question!

The problem I have with the thought of distancing themselves is that JH went to the same KH as not only WH, but also the family spokesman. We have a family mentality as can be witnessed by how everyone rallied around Clint and Whitney's family.

If JH were a regular attendee who made himself a part of the congregation, he would be a part of that family. The family spokesman would be expressing sadness and support not only on WH's behalf, but on JH's behalf as well, instead of distancing himself and the congregation from JH.

No, I believe that the spokesman spoke the truth. IMVHO

 

[caffeinejean]

The problem I have with the thought of distancing themselves is that JH went to the same KH as not only WH, but also the family spokesman. We have a family mentality as can be witnessed by how everyone rallied around Clint and Whitney's family.

If JH were a regular attendee who made himself a part of the congregation, he would be a part of that family. The family spokesman would be expressing sadness and support not only on WH's behalf, but on JH's behalf as well, instead of distancing himself and the congregation from JH.

No, I believe that the spokesman spoke the truth. IMVHO

I do believe the congregational family was incredibly sincere with their support and rally around all the victims of this horrible tragedy. And the family was very fortunate to have such a spokesperson. But to state that JH was an "irregular attendee" seems so ambiguous. Basically just say..that's that!.

So when did he become an irregular? As you stated, JH went to the same KH. He was married in that Hall too, and to a fellow JW, it wasn't that long ago. He still may have been scheduled for the "Sound Dept." for all we know. It just seems like an awful fast cleansing of a fellow member, past history of service forgotten fast, so to speak. I think JH is a real ______(fill in the blank) but, I'm not a representative of his religion, i.e..lost lamb, etc. It appears his faith abandoned him too and fast.
JMO too and again.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I do believe the congregational family was incredibly sincere with their support and rally around all the victims of this horrible tragedy. And the family was very fortunate to have such a spokesperson. But to state that JH was an "irregular attendee" seems so ambiguous. Basically just say..that's that!.

So when did he become an irregular? As you stated, JH went to the same KH. He was married in that Hall too, and to a fellow JW, it wasn't that long ago. He still may have been scheduled for the "Sound Dept." for all we know. It just seems like an awful fast cleansing of a fellow member, past history of service forgotten fast, so to speak. I think JH is a real ______(fill in the blank) but, I'm not a representative of his religion, i.e..lost lamb, etc. It appears his faith abandoned him too and fast.
JMO too and again.

I don't think the statement "irregular attendee" was meant to distance him from the congregation, rather a statement of fact to provide a clearer picture of his association with the Heichels. If he was a regular attendee then he would have seen them 2-3 times a week at congregation meetings and for preaching. As an irregular attendee, they may have only seen him once every couple of months ago when Amanda could convince him to go along, or maybe he only went for special annual events.

If he had been a regular attendee, then I would think they would have immediately stated that and been able to give a clearer picture of his normal behaviors and attitude towards Whitney.

 

[caffeinejean]

Thanks iamnotagolem and newsjunkie for your explanations, they make sense to me. Maybe I just read between the lines a little too much. But, I must say, it was hard to miss the "irregular" and it became an instant focus for me since it was the only word bolded and underlined in the released statement.

 

[newsjunkie]

Thanks iamnotagolem and newsjunkie for your explanations, they make sense to me. Maybe I just read between the lines a little too much. But, I must say, it was hard to miss the "irregular" and it became an instant focus for me since it was the only word bolded and underlined in the released statement.

I can understand why you took it that way. I wanted to go back and look at what he said and found this. . .

Jim Vaughn, a Heichel family spokesman, confirmed early Monday that Holt was still "an irregular attendee" of one of the six congregations that use the Gresham Kingdom Hall.

"From time to time, he attended our meetings," Vaughn said.

http://www.oregonlive.com/gresham/index.ssf/2012/10/whitney_heichel_was_shot_four.html

 

[Xavier]

Great photos SasQuatch. Definitely a clear day. The next time you stop out there, say a prayer for the families involved.

I keep looking at these photos of endless high grassy fields, flanked by tall, dense timbers and woods and can't understand why did'nt Holt choose this area of Roslyn/Dodge to not only commit the crime, but dispose of the SUV & WH?

By the way say a prayer for those poor shoppers and the 3 who died from the Clackamas County, OR mall shooter...the shooter was a young guy in his 20s he was described as very outgoing, friendly, well liked, did'nt know his parents ...shooting was one of his hobbies...there's alot of that going around these days


"I was asked by a reporter why did I perform a concert so soon after getting shot...Well, obviously crime and criminals don't take a day off, so why should I?" -- BOB MARLEY

 

[Sasquatch]

Good post and some useful information, respectfully snipped by me.

Hi Sasquatch, Don't know if you feel comfortable answering this, but it begs the questions.... Male or Female parent? How old is the photo?

We could open up a whole new can of worms:worms:

The photo was from early 2010, and it was JH's mother. It is highly likely that JH had a very supportive Mother, and it was reflected in his grades. She works in a school district here in Oregon. I know nothing about the other family members, other than Google maps showing a camping trailer parked in their house back lot. This shows to me that his family must have done a lot of outdoor trips. So it is highly likely JH was telling some truth about he and his father, target practicing a lot and doing outdoor stuff. I can not find any verification that JH was a JW before they got married.

The unconfirmed information floating around about JH's affiliation with the JW KH, is that JH had been a "Ministerial Servant", who stepped down in 2011, after the Auto Theft Incident with his friend. JH might have used his E.M.T. training as a First Aid tech with the WatchTower Society's local Oregon "Regional Building Committee" . I will have to find verifiable sources on this. We do have it verified, that JH was a certified EMT since 2010. I am not sure how to verify a list of people on the KH Regional Building Committee. I am guessing that most of this information would be only available to congregation members.

 

[Sasquatch]

I keep looking at these photos of endless high grassy fields, flanked by tall, dense timbers and woods and can't understand why did'nt Holt choose this area of Roslyn/Dodge to not only commit the crime, but dispose of the SUV & WH?

Either JH got spooked off by another car, or those dogs started barking or he didn't expect to kill WH and he just took off. Dodge Park Blvd. is off the main path, so it does look like he was just driving for a few minutes without a plan, until he hit Pleasant Home Road.

By the way say a prayer for those poor shoppers and the 3 who died from the Clackamas County, OR mall shooter...the shooter was a young guy in his 20s he was described as very outgoing, friendly, well liked, did'nt know his parents ...shooting was one of his hobbies...there's alot of that going around these days

This is the second tragedy in such a short time period for this area. First WH in October, and now The Clackamas Town Center Mall shooting. I had met WH a few times and seen her family around town, so it has been something that has really hit close to home. Now with the mall shooting, it brings another tragedy to our area. I did not know the victims personally, but I have a lot of friends who worked with and knew the male victim, Steve Forsyth, throughout the years.
The second victim that died was a Hospice Nurse for Kaiser Hospital. There is one 15 year old girl that survived the shooting, named Kristina. She is in stable condition up at OHSU, in Portland. I have been in touch with her brother. Their family's van got hit in August by a drunk driver and Kristina was in that van as well. So for the one survivor that got shot, she has been hit real hard with two life threatening experiences in a matter of months. Lucky for her the bullet went through her chest and only bruised some organs.

Link to victims:
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-shooting-victims-identified-forsythe-yuille-183211611.html
Link to survivor:
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-shooting-survivor-cheated-death-last-summer-183175691.html
Link about the shooter:
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-gunman-Jacob-Tyler-Roberts-183203211.html
Link to Mall shooters FB page: (he has a photo of him shooting, Larch Mtn?)
https://www.facebook.com/jake.roberts.102

 

[newsjunkie]

I would be interested to know what all was going on in JH's life around the time of the rental car theft from his friend. Did something traumatic happen to him? It almost seems like there is a line in the sand for how he lived his life before that time period and after.

 

[caffeinejean]

Thank you Sasquatch for all the information you provided again. Hmmmmm, very interesting.
I too have seen the same unconfirmed info on JH, his position and the EMT service through his JW group. Also had found a photo of mom, but could not find it again, and never studied it well like you. Plus, I never noticed a trailer on the back lot, however I remember the modest house appearance was deceiving as it seemed to have alot of property with many out-buildings on the backside. Thanks again for your fine detail study.


The mall tragedy disaster is so so sad. Many hearts aching again so soon and too often. My thoughts and prayers.

 

[Glow]

I would be interested to know what all was going on in JH's life around the time of the rental car theft from his friend. Did something traumatic happen to him? It almost seems like there is a line in the sand for how he lived his life before that time period and after.

That is a really good question. I have quoted Sasquatch below to see if that might be part of the answer. Another part of the puzzle perhaps?

The unconfirmed information floating around about JH's affiliation with the JW KH, is that JH had been a "Ministerial Servant", who stepped down in 2011 after the Auto Theft Incident with his friend.

Would losing that position have increased the problems he was already perceiving himself as having?

 

[newsjunkie]

That is a really good question. I have quoted Sasquatch below to see if that might be part of the answer. Another part of the puzzle perhaps?



Would losing that position have increased the problems he was already perceiving himself as having?

Yeah I saw that and since it was unconfirmed info, I didn't really want to delve too deeply. We are already on thin ice, so to speak, with the JW conversation.

Hypothetically speaking, if a person had the privilege of being a ministerial servant and then stepped down, yes, I believe it could increase personal issues.

But the person that is going to qualify to be a ministerial servant isn't going to steal a car. . . or even borrow one without permission. So, I just wonder what the catalyst was (if there was one) that got him from qualifying for being a ministerial servant to the point of doing something so stupid as stealing his friend's car, then needing to step down after that, and then sending him so far down that he would commit murder.

 

[Glow]

I dont think we are on thin ice as long as we are not discussing religious topics. All we are discussing is the structural set up of an organization that JH belonged to that happens to be a religious organization also. I think we are doing a good job of having a non religious discussion given the fact that this case is unusual in that it has a religious component that is hard to ignore and is part of the fabric of the whole situation. Kind of like (but not exactly) when that man broke in to the Amish school and shot children. The emphasis on forgiveness and reconciliation in the response of the Amish community was widely discussed in the national media and on forums and that was a foundation belief of that group (Amish)so it would have been hard to leave it out entirely.

At least that is just my take on it. :twocents:

I have been thinking more about your question Newsjunkie.....so maybe something happened to "trigger" that car jacking and that is when JH really began to go off track? Not being a MS in his congregation would have been an additional stressor (perhaps) but what was the original reason he took off with the car....

I think that is what you are asking, right?

That is interesting to think about. It does sound like life was fairly normal before that. He got married in a nice congregation wedding. He was serving in that congregation (not what irregulars do).

Then he shows his friend a house he is thinking about renting and takes off for a day with the car. The police get called, he loses his MS position and the whole thing is remembered by the friend, Amber and even JH himself as a real big event because they all bring it up when the next "similar big event" happened. (the supposed robbery on the morning of the 16th.

When did he graduate from EMT school? Could it be that he couldnt get work. Im sorry I dont remember this but after he graduated from EMT school did he pass his exams with the state? I thought I remember that he did but I am not sure.

 

[Glow]

I had met WH a few times and seen her family around town, so it has been something that has really hit close to home.

I didnt realize this Sasquatch. Bless your heart, I really feel for you and everyone who met this bright light of a girl.

 

[newsjunkie]

I dont think we are on thin ice as long as we are not discussing religious topics. All we are discussing is the structural set up of an organization that JH belonged to that happens to be a religious organization also. I think we are doing a good job of having a non religious discussion given the fact that this case is unusual in that it has a religious component that is hard to ignore and is part of the fabric of the whole situation. Kind of like (but not exactly) when that man broke in to the Amish school and shot children. The emphasis on forgiveness and reconciliation in the response of the Amish community was widely discussed in the national media and on forums and that was a foundation belief of that group (Amish)so it would have been hard to leave it out entirely.

At least that is just my take on it. :twocents:

I have been thinking more about your question Newsjunkie.....so maybe something happened to "trigger" that car jacking and that is when JH really began to go off track? Not being a MS in his congregation would have been an additional stressor (perhaps) but what was the original reason he took off with the car....

I think that is what you are asking, right?

That is interesting to think about. It does sound like life was fairly normal before that. He got married in a nice congregation wedding. He was serving in that congregation (not what irregulars do).

Then he shows his friend a house he is thinking about renting and takes off for a day with the car. The police get called, he loses his MS position and the whole thing is remembered by the friend, Amber and even JH himself as a real big event because they all bring it up when the next "similar big event" happened. (the supposed robbery on the morning of the 16th.

When did he graduate from EMT school? Could it be that he couldnt get work. Im sorry I dont remember this but after he graduated from EMT school did he pass his exams with the state? I thought I remember that he did but I am not sure.

BBM

Yes ma'am. That is exactly what I am asking.

I have no knowledge about the EMT stuff. I bet Sasquatch will come on tomorrow and have an answer though. She should be a certified expert on Websleuths for all things Gresham, OR. . .lol! Seriously though, what an asset we have in Sasquatch!