Oscar Pistorius Defense

[Viper]

Here is an interesting link:

http://www.nickvanderleek.com/2014/04/oscar-trial-speculations-of-what-really.html

The diagram of OP's movements is amazing! But the Tweets by Warren Lahoud are very sad. Too bad his relationship with Reeva had to end.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I was making a comparison to someone who does have NPD - whether he does or not is anyone's guess - I think the argument his personality has narcissistic traits is well-founded. Further, due to the nature of this forum, personality disorders are very, very often a topic of discussion for obvious reasons. It isn't people trying to diagnose so much as it is trying to make sense of the unthinkable. I do, very strongly, believe narcissists and abusive personalities share a great many traits though. Whether he's an abuser could be argued too...but there's a lot there seemingly very consistent to someone who is.

I believe, very simply, Oscar thought he would get away with Reeva's murder and still probably does. His entire adult life, and quite possibly much longer, he has never been required to account for his actions. Why should now be different than every other experience? Though he denies it, there is a claim that he boasted to police after being arrested he'd beat the murder charge. "I'll survive. I always win."

I'd thought initially Oscar wasn't the brightest crayon in the box...but I have a sneaking suspicion he's far craftier than some give him credit for.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

not sure how crafty. i think that he had thoughts of 'cleanup' mode and initiated them, by starting phoning for friends' assistance as he has always successfully done in the past. the difference this time is that the crime is much [much] more difficult to cover up. maybe he had a muddled wash off/blood/black bags/drive off idea... but i doubt stander - or anyone - was going to take him up on it.

and then new nemesis dr stipp revealed himself. which - apart from a couple of hasty trips upstairs - totally quashed it anyway.

 

[Greater Than]

He actually did mention that he was physically sick at the time:
1) "the smell of the blood was making me throw up" (23:00 link below)

2) then that he had to go into the kitchen to be away from seeing her body: "I couldn't look around the corner because every time I saw Reeva I got sick." (24:00 link below)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbz64-Ie0BM

Just because he claims he vomited at the scene doesn't mean he did.

OP has been known to tell a lie or two.

 

[shane13]

Just because he claims he vomited at the scene doesn't mean he did.

OP has been known to tell a lie or two.

Clearly this matter can only be determined by a certified forensic vomitologist.

 

[TorisMom003]

I was making a comparison to someone who does have NPD - whether he does or not is anyone's guess - I think the argument his personality has narcissistic traits is well-founded. Further, due to the nature of this forum, personality disorders are very, very often a topic of discussion for obvious reasons. It isn't people trying to diagnose so much as it is trying to make sense of the unthinkable. I do, very strongly, believe narcissists and abusive personalities share a great many traits though. Whether he's an abuser could be argued too...but there's a lot there seemingly very consistent to someone who is.

I believe, very simply, Oscar thought he would get away with Reeva's murder and still probably does. His entire adult life, and quite possibly much longer, he has never been required to account for his actions. Why should now be different than every other experience? Though he denies it, there is a claim that he boasted to police after being arrested he'd beat the murder charge. "I'll survive. I always win."

I'd thought initially Oscar wasn't the brightest crayon in the box...but I have a sneaking suspicion he's far craftier than some give him credit for.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

OP has, up until this point, gotten away with his past bad deeds. The Tashas incident was covered up by friends, until now. The boating accident was never pursued by police. The sunroof incident was ignored and not talked about by friends, until now. I'm sure there are others that I am forgetting.

When a person is able to talk their way out of any sort of taking responsibility for their bad deeds, and for their friends to either take the blame for them or cover it up, they tend to believe that they are able to do whatever they want and get away with it. OP appears to fit this type of person.

I agree with you BritsKate, and was just adding onto your post.

MOO

 

[TorisMom003]

Just because he claims he vomited at the scene doesn't mean he did.

OP has been known to tell a lie or two.

I feel sure that if OP had indeed vomited on scene, he would have said so during his testimony. After all, this would add "credibility" to his "version". Since he never said it, it didn't happen.


I also believe that there would be a photo of it, if there was any at the scene.

MOO

 

[shane13]

I feel sure that if OP had indeed vomited on scene, he would have said so during his testimony. After all, this would add "credibility" to his "version". Since he never said it, it didn't happen.


I also believe that there would be a photo of it, if there was any at the scene.

MOO

I have just certified you.

But don't bring the evidence home to study.

 

[Greater Than]

You are right if Oscar was not in genuine fear for his life about murder rather than CH it is Oscar's contention that he was in genuine fear for his life.

You may also be right about the judge that is why I put so many qualifiers in my post as that opinion is held by me almost solely on instinct which means nothing to reality.

BBM - Of course that's his contention! He's on trial for murder!

 

[shane13]

BBM - Of course that's his contention! He's on trial for murder!

It was also his contention that everything was fine.

 

[katydid23]

I do think it is twofold thought process, if we are to believe the fight and cold blooded murder theory, one conscious deliberate, proactive and devious, and one is pure rage and reactive, but that is what this discussion is about different interpretations of the same event.

I find it implausible that Oscar would willfully throw his life into turmoil by shooting dead his bed mate in his toilet.

BBM

People do that quite often. It is not all that unusual. People lose control of themselves in an angry moment and make rash decisions, then try and cover it up as best as they can. This forum is smack full of similar cases.

OP has a history of making similar bad choices. The boating incident, the two shooting incidents, the driving too fast with Reeva in the car, the girl at the party, etc etc

 

[toevlugsoord]

respectfully snipped



Welcome, toevlugsoord!

Thank you so much for sharing a link to the documentary about Reeva. It's beautifully done -- poignant, but informative, as well.

I've copied your post to this new thread.


Reeva Rebecca Steenkamp - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

:welcome5:
​

I saw that and wondered if I'd accidentally done that somehow -- I'm glad you copied it elsewhere too -- thanks. I think it's a very very important documentary to watch for anyone following this case. Huge insights into her parents, her background, and her relationship with Warren etc. So sad at the end with her ashes.

 

[Harmony 2]

I just moved about 10 posts to the thread linked below... if you are looking for a post check there...

'The doors' - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Lyra500]

not sure how crafty. i think that he had thoughts of 'cleanup' mode and initiated them, by starting phoning for friends' assistance as he has always successfully done in the past. the difference this time is that the crime is much [much] more difficult to cover up. maybe he had a muddled wash off/blood/black bags/drive off idea... but i doubt stander - or anyone - was going to take him up on it.

and then new nemesis dr stipp revealed himself. which - apart from a couple of hasty trips upstairs - totally quashed it anyway.

BIB - am I correct in recalling that OP mentioned asking Stander to take Reeva to hospital in his car but Stander refusing?


If so, could this be another example of weaving an element of truth into his fabricated version?

i can remember thinking at the time "Gosh that seems a bit harsh. i know there would have been blood and everything, but even so....."

However, what if OP did ask Stander to take Reeva in his car, but to do something altogether more sinister than delivering her to a hospital? A refusal in those circumstances would be very understandable.

Pure speculation of course.

 

[Trooper]

BIB - am I correct in recalling that OP mentioned asking Stander to take Reeva to hospital in his car but Stander refusing?


If so, could this be another example of weaving an element of truth into his fabricated version?

i can remember thinking at the time "Gosh that seems a bit harsh. i know there would have been blood and everything, but even so....."

However, what if OP did ask Stander to take Reeva in his car, but to do something altogether more sinister than delivering her to a hospital? A refusal in those circumstances would be very understandable.

Pure speculation of course.

quite correct, Lycra... this was from Van Rensburgs testimony.. he spoke with Clarice when he arrived, ( Clarice was master of ceremony that morning.. greeting, meeting, organising ,directing, etc_ )

Clarice told Van Rensburg that her father had been asked by Oscar to drive Reeva to hospital. Mr Standar , reasonably, declined this peculiar invitation and told Oscar to put her down in the hallway.. ( according to Clarice) ..

So far, what is known about Clarice.. she got there with Dad , first off the mark...she and Dad pushed ahead of Baba thru the unlocked front door.. she ratted around the kitchen getting tea towels and plastic bags to halt the flow of blood over Oscar's nice tiles.. she went upstairs to get bigger towels from the linen press , or bathroom..she got the rope.. , this, with Oscar directing.. she , at some stage, got Oscars phone and was using it to ring the numbers on it. ( Peet Van Zyll, for example) ..

And she was there at the door when Van Rensburg arrived..

a busy busy woman, indeedy.

 

[Forensics]

We can't go from one set of past results to another wholly new expected result from poor behavior.

It has been the consensus of the majority here that Oscar continually got away with bad behavior and was given special treatment by everyone including the law. What would make Oscar believe that he would suddenly be held accountable for bad behavior to the point that he would reach the conclusion that murdering his girlfriend in cold blood, while she was locked in a toilet, was a behavior he would more likely get a pass on than whatever it was he had already done?

Following your analogy, perhaps because he thought he could get away with the self defence argument and not have any lasting negative repercussions to his image, as opposed to say, Reeva alerting the police and even worse the general public to his aggression/rage whatever. Reeva had a public persona herself and would have attracted much media attention. IMO Oscar's public persona was extremely important to him, bringing with it lucrative sponsorship deals that funded his lifestyle as well as the adulation he craved. I do think he would have attempted anything to maintain the status quo.

 

[Trooper]

and going back thru Baba's testimony, its Baba that mentions the car running in the driveway with the doors open, back and front.. I don't know if that was Standars car, or Oscars car that Standar had , or Clarice had, started and opened the doors.. but he definitely says it was so.. a car , engine running and doors open, in the driveway..

the mystery running car.

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

re: soothing
reeva appeared to have the soothing ability, the empathy. she had some shared experience of disability - albeit temporary disability.

re: 'blow' at any moment
conversely, she also had the rising career; the ability to debate rather than aquiesce [the law degree]; fantastic looks and physique; the personality to draw [away] the attention of the crowd.

the powder keg of ingredients.

Sleuth

Your post highlights something about people with NPD that many don't realise or can't get their head around. With NPD, narcissistic injury can be caused by things that most people would think are "normal" and would not be threatened by. It doesn't have to be a big issue. It could be something as mundane as a partner getting more attention the narcissist.

Until now, I've not weighed in on the question about "what caused the fight". My main reason being that, with a narcissist, the trigger could be something so ridiculous that no reasonable person would "get it".

However, the one "precipitant" that has occasionally come to mind is: a disagreement, about who knows what, followed by Reeva saying she was going home. IMO Reeva walking out would have caused a major narcissistic injury for OP who already feels deserted by his mother and father. A narcissist would be angered by the further abandonment, and want to prevent it. IMO this is more plausible than OP telling Reeva to leave.

 

[Forensics]

Sleuth

Your post highlights something about people with NPD that many don't realise or can't get their head around. With NPD, narcissistic injury can be caused by things that most people would think are "normal" and would not be threatened by. It doesn't have to be a big issue. It could be something as mundane as a partner getting more attention the narcissist.

Until now, I've not weighed in on the question about "what caused the fight". My main reason being that, with a narcissist, the trigger could be something so ridiculous that no reasonable person would "get it".

However, the one "precipitant" that has occasionally come to mind is: a disagreement, about who knows what, followed by Reeva saying she was going home. IMO Reeva walking out would have caused a major narcissistic injury for OP who already feels deserted by his mother and father. A narcissist would be angered by the further abandonment, and want to prevent it. IMO this is more plausible than OP telling Reeva to leave.

Also keeping in mind that he had just come from a very 'bad meeting' which would have made him much more reactive.

 

[Trooper]

We can't go from one set of past results to another wholly new expected result from poor behavior.

It has been the consensus of the majority here that Oscar continually got away with bad behavior and was given special treatment by everyone including the law. What would make Oscar believe that he would suddenly be held accountable for bad behavior to the point that he would reach the conclusion that murdering his girlfriend in cold blood, while she was locked in a toilet, was a behavior he would more likely get a pass on than whatever it was he had already done?

Whatever it was, it made sense to Oscar at the time.. of course, it doesn't now, which is why we are subjected to the relentless vomiting, .. its the thing that differentiates people in the dock for murder, and the rest of us who have been lucky enough to avoid the situation. . Ask any murderer.. it made sense at the time.

Oscar cannot reconcile what he's done with why he has done it.. its not an unusual position. .. happens all the time.

My own opinion is, he didn't think up the intruder stuff until he stopped firing the gun. Everything he says follows on from that cool yet panicked decision. Consequently, his story about the events before the shooting have to line up with that mad decision when the firing stopped. Which, incidentally, is why the story is a complete shambles, an improbable tale that requires the suspension of logic, gravity, physics, time, and rationale.

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

Also keeping in mind that he had just come from a very 'bad meeting' which would have made him much more reactive.

Yes, his ego would have been very tender!