PA - Amtrak train from Washington crashes in Philadelphia, May 2015

[corundogs]

"The speed of the ill-fated Amtrak train that derailed in Philadelphia on Tuesday night accelerated right before the crash, authorities revealed today."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/amtrak-cra...-train-derailment-officials/story?id=31042574

HHMMMM...wonder what that indicates?

 

[corundogs]

Right now this looks like an accident caused by human failure. The kind that a Positive Train Control (PTC) system is designed to prevent.

After an accident in 2008, Congress mandated that all railroads install PTC by the end of this year. PTC is functional on part of the Amtrak NE corridor, but unfortunately not on this part of the line.

OK wait...who is responsible for that? Is the funding for that covered under the Government assistance? And wouldn't they need to make sure the funding was there in order to mandate it? Or am I wrong?

 

[jjenny]

"In yet another curious turn in the investigation, Robert Sumwalt of the National Transportation Safety Board said Thursday that the train sped up in the last minute or so before the wreck, accelerating from 70 mph to over 100 mph."

http://www.newser.com/article/faa42...talked-about-trains-constantly-as-a-teen.html

 

[jjenny]

HHMMMM...wonder what that indicates?

I dunno. Speed increased instead of going down in the last minute before the crash. From 70 mph to over a 100 mph.

 

[Inthedetails]

HHMMMM...wonder what that indicates?

I'm not yet ready to believe it was deliberate. I'm sticking with my hunch that he mistakenly thought he had passed the curve and was on the straightaway. At this point, I think it was a tragic human error.

JMO.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

My personal experience on an Amtr*k train on a long, overnight journey = the train was going way too fast & was top-heavy resulting in a lot of swaying to and fro'. Common sense told me that it wasn't safe just by the mere laws of physics (moving objects + energy/laws of motion).

I vowed to never take one again...& never did.

 

[Inthedetails]

"...Amtrak may be protected from catastrophic financial damage by an earlier congressional action. Eighteen years ago, Congress set a $200 million cap on what Amtrak could be required to pay out for a single incident.

"In 2009, a report by the Government Accountability Office reviewed the cap and said that 'questions remain about the enforceability . . . of indemnifying an entity for its own gross negligence and willful misconduct.'

"The Government Accountability Office cited a federal appeals court ruling that the cap could have the unintended consequence of undermining rail safety."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...a1c-11e4-9ef4-1bb7ce3b3fb7_story.html?hpid=z1

 

[corundogs]

Interesting...

CNN banner

NTSB: Speed accelerated from 70MPH to 100MP in seconds

ETA - Sorry this is sort of late...I thought it was submitted but I had to wait 1 second to post it. And didn't see it for about 20 minutes! LOL!!

 

[Hatfield]

I'm not yet ready to believe it was deliberate. I'm sticking with my hunch that he mistakenly thought he had passed the curve and was on the straightaway. At this point, I think it was a tragic human error.

JMO.

Yeah. Im still thinking he thought he passed the curve and decided to accelerate to cruising speed. About 100 MPH is about what I would expect the cruising speed to be on the straight part heading to NYC.

I am pretty sure this is going to end up being some form of human error that is going to be put squarely on the operators shoulders. The big question I have is how bad was his "error". Like was their any negligence involved like talking on his phone not paying attention OR did he just make an honest mistake.

I am also curious how many times he made that exact run. Was this a route he had done before many times or did he just start this route. If we find out that he just started this route, then it leans more towards an honest mistake.

 

[jjenny]

Why would he think he passed a curve when he was just approaching it?

 

[Inthedetails]

Yeah. Im still thinking he thought he passed the curve and decided to accelerate to cruising speed. About 100 MPH is about what I would expect the cruising speed to be on the straight part heading to NYC.

I am pretty sure this is going to end up being some form of human error that is going to be put squarely on the operators shoulders. The big question I have is how bad was his "error". Like was their any negligence involved like talking on his phone not paying attention OR did he just make an honest mistake.

I am also curious how many times he made that exact run. Was this a route he had done before many times or did he just start this route. If we find out that he just started this route, then it leans more towards an honest mistake.

I'd like to know, also, how long was his shift that day. He turned over his cell phone voluntarily so I'm thinking he wasn't using it. That will be easy to determine soon enough.

While I lean very heavily toward this derailment being UNintentional, the Germanwings flight does linger in my mind, and probably always will in cases like this. It took awhile in that case for the strange truth to emerge.

 

[Hatfield]

"...Amtrak may be protected from catastrophic financial damage by an earlier congressional action. Eighteen years ago, Congress set a $200 million cap on what Amtrak could be required to pay out for a single incident.

"In 2009, a report by the Government Accountability Office reviewed the cap and said that 'questions remain about the enforceability . . . of indemnifying an entity for its own gross negligence and willful misconduct.'

"The Government Accountability Office cited a federal appeals court ruling that the cap could have the unintended consequence of undermining rail safety."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...a1c-11e4-9ef4-1bb7ce3b3fb7_story.html?hpid=z1

I can understand wanting to cap it but I dont like the way they did it. Because what if there was 300 people on board. That would mean less than 1 million per person.

What they should have done is had a max per person. Like 2 million per person for any injuries OR death. And if injuries only, then of course they would have to negotiate the amount up to 2 million max per person.

Seems much fairer to have a cap per person.

 

[CARIIS]

JMO
I agree totally with the whole post.

I would get a laywer too regardless. And I am concerned that he brings up cell phone at all.

Wondering about communication protocols with Amtrak. Dont they use like a 2 way radio to dispatchers?

If they did have 2 way radios, then why didnt he use that to talk to dispatch. Maybe it was broken in the wreck.

Im having suspicouns about this guy. Nothing more than just suspicouns based solely on what he has said and also what he has not said. And also the fact he is claiming he does not remember.
Things are trickling out that are giving me suspiciouns about his story so far.
Will have to wait and see.

For soem reason, I believe he may not remermber - he was pretty beat up. I am wondering if he thought he was somewhere else along the route, like further along past the curve. The acceleration sounds like a normal one in terms of if one was in an area where one could now go faster. According to NTSB on CNN that rate of accleration is typical when one is trying to pick up speed - nothing abnormal or sudden in 30 mph gain in speed evidentlyy
IMO

 

[Inthedetails]

Why would he think he passed a curve when he was just approaching it?

Routine blindness. Have you ever zoned out on a familiar route when driving? There were a couple of curves right before this one and I think he made a mistake and thought he was on the straightaway.

Of course, I don't know this for sure. I just have a hunch by looking at the map of the tracks.

 

[Hatfield]

Why would he think he passed a curve when he was just approaching it?

I may be mistaken because it has been awhile since I rode this route, but from what I remember, I think it is not just 1 curve to the left. I seem to recall a series of gradual turns to the left. So he could have gone through one of the bends it straightens out a little, and he thought that was it, when there was 1 more big bend to the left coming up.

 

[CARIIS]

OK wait...who is responsible for that? Is the funding for that covered under the Government assistance? And wouldn't they need to make sure the funding was there in order to mandate it? Or am I wrong?

Hi Corun!
Among its provisions, the law provides funding to help pay for the development of PTC technology, limits the number of hours freight rail crews can work each month, and requires the Department of Transportation to determine work hour limits for passenger train crews.

... then is says ......The unfunded mandate also ties the hands of the FRA to adopt a more nuanced or flexible approach to the adoption of PTC technology where it makes the most sense or where it is technically most feasible.[SUP][15]

[/SUP]

n December 2010, the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) reported that Amtrak and the major Class I railroads have taken steps to install PTC systems under the law, but the work may not be complete by the 2015 deadline. The railroads and their suppliers are continuing to develop software to test various system components, which could delay equipment installation. GAO also suggests that publicly funded commuter railroads will have difficulty in obtaining funds to pay for their system components.[1

Only in govt can the estimate be like this (smile!) TC installation expected to be as much as US$6–22 billion

can anyone imagine a private sector entity saying we are not sure "it" will cost between 6 - 22 billion dollors - I mean really guys!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_train_control

 

[CARIIS]

We have all seen those videos, primarily elderly, flying through the doors of 7-11 when they accidently hit the gas instead of the brake - maybe he just went up on the throttle instead of down...............................

and hey, he has a total right not to talk to cops that the way our system works - could mean nothing, but it is his fundemental right...

There have been two other derailments since this:

A freight train derailment in Pittsburgh was one of two railway incidents Thursday, less than two days after an Amtrak train flew off the tracks in Philadelphia.

and

Allegheny Valley Railroad confirmed one of its trains derailed to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, but it did not release any further details. The company did not immediately respond to The Daily News' request for information.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/freight-train-derails-pittsburg-article-1.2221853

 

[CARIIS]

JMO
This indicates to me that the investigators are also having serious suspicouns about the operator and what he may or may not have told them so far.

NTSB -Testing the brakes , is somehting they would do - it is protocol not suspicious based

 

[Hatfield]

Im glad they found everyone now. That is good news.

I heard on CNN tonight that they hope to have at least part of the track open by Tuesday if all goes well.

It would be tough to get back on that train.

 

[CARIIS]

t more on the engineer:

he engineer in the fatal Amtrak derailment in Philadelphia this week, a childhood passion for trains turned into a career.Growing up outside Memphis, Mr. Bostian was an “unabashed nerd,” said Lee Allen, his best friend through middle school and high school.
“When you heard the name Brandon Bostian, the first thing you would think is trains,” Mr. Allen said on Thursday. “His walls were covered with pictures, he had several model sets. Sometimes we’d just go down to the tracks that ran through town and watch trains and shoot the breeze.”


On the online forums of trainorders.com, a writer who signed many of his posts as “Brandon” routinely criticized railroad companies for not doing more to prevent accidents. Details strongly suggest the posts were by Mr. Bostian — the subjects and locations of the posts correspond to the places he lived and the jobs he has had at Amtrak. In a cached version of a deleted topic page, other members of the site identified Mr. Bostian by name and his online handle, saying he was the conductor of the train that derailed.
The posts criticize a lack of safeguards to protect against human error, pointing out how fatigue, bad communication and “cutting corners” could lead to crashes. When others were skeptical of new safety technology, or dismissed the idea that an experienced engineer could make a simple mistake, he was often quick to comment to the contrary.

aid out how technology had been in place since the 1920s to stop trains if engineers failed to obey stop signals, how technology improved in the 1950s until, by the 1980s, a pilot “positive train control” system was up and running. But, he noted, railroad companies never adopted the safety measures.
“At any point over the previous EIGHTY years the railroad could have voluntarily implemented some form of this technology on the line where that fateful wreck took place,” the post said. “I wish the railroads had been more proactive in adopting active signaling systems from the get-go.”
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ting-the-philadelphia-amtrak-train-crash.html