PA PA - Carol Dougherty, 9, Bristol, 22 Oct 1962

[Lorraining]

Found the mothers grave..

Birth: unknown
Death: Feb. 4, 1975

Daughter of Miller H and Helen Wynings Shuman. Wife of Frank J Dougherty. Member of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church, Berwick.

Burial:
Pine Grove Cemetery Walnut Street
Berwick
Columbia County
Pennsylvania, USA

It is interesting that at the time of her death, Dorothy was a member of a Lutheran Church. I wonder if what happened to Carol Ann and/or the actions of the church after what happened made her disilusioned with the Catholic Church.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

It is interesting that at the time of her death, Dorothy was a member of a Lutheran Church. I wonder if what happened to Carol Ann and/or the actions of the church after what happened made her disilusioned with the Catholic Church.

I don't think it would have been the murder that did it for me, But the way the church handled it. I just keep thinking about the times in 1962. I took a break from this today because yesterday I searched so hard all day.

I plan to see if I can find her grave, however I asked Mullane if he knew were it was and he said Berwick. But the investigator said our lady of grace.. Im going to call there this week. See what I can find out. I have other people I know who are buried there. I don't know how willing people are to talk about this as there are so many dead ends.

<modsnip>

Bucks County Courier Times
Feb 7,1977

 

[necco]

So about what age is confirmation vs Holy Communion? And thanks for this! I am lost on the Catholic rules and laws.

They are EVER changing and vary from diocese to diocese.

For me, Communion was 2nd grade, Penance was 4th, Confirmation was 8th. Some now do Penance first and then Communion and I think Confirmation waits until high school. I know some people who were confirmed at 10 years old.

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

http://www.phillyburbs.com/blogs/ne...cle_40e64d30-a3be-5a40-a5a7-3024fc64191e.html

At the Down Town Club, he asked, “Tell me what you didn’t put in your story.”
An intriguing question, I thought, and I told him about “12.”
After the series ran, a note signed “12” arrived. The sender requested a meeting with me to reveal Carol Dougherty’s killer. The sender instructed me to acknowledge the note in a classified add in the newspaper. I did.
A few days later, while I was at Mass at St. Mark’s, an envelope was left under the windshield wiper of my car. Inside the envelope was a paper with “12” on it. That’s all.

After so many years grasping for straws so putting something WAYYY outside the box here. This is so far outside the box you cannot go any further. Just wondering if the demon seen the movie and decided to live out the fantasy inside the church and killed her to keep her quite.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tWt0056193/releaseinfo?ref_=tt_ov_inf

A movie called Lolita came out in June 12 1962.
In the book she was 12
​

 

[Robin Hood]

Pirplegrl, could you please let me have whhat was said about the guy seen opening the window, who saw him etc.

Also, could anybody who's familiar with Catholic services/ burials, please tell me about what happens to the body the day before the funeral. When does the body go to the church in the evening, who closes it if it's an open casket and do the family stay overnight with the person in the church ? Anything along these lines would help. Thanking in advance.

Are you still going to the library Pirplegrl ? if so, I have a request for you to look something up for me.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Pirplegrl, could you please let me have whhat was said about the guy seen opening the window, who saw him etc.

Also, could anybody who's familiar with Catholic services/ burials, please tell me about what happens to the body the day before the funeral. When does the body go to the church in the evening, who closes it if it's an open casket and do the family stay overnight with the person in the church ? Anything along these lines would help. Thanking in advance.

Are you still going to the library Pirplegrl ? if so, I have a request for you to look something up for me.

Yes. I will get that quote from article for you and pm it
I am going to library. We just have been sick here so getting out has been hard.

There are a few different branches here so I may have to travel to bigger one and older one to get what I am looking for.
I will get the quote for you today. I need coffee. Lots of coffee this morning.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I went to cemetery. I searched for about 2 hours and could not find her grave.

I did not want to walk into the office and ask. I did not want them to be angry and put off. I found the section that seemed to be 1958-1963 section. I did not find her. I did however find a grave that said Dougherty and someone had left things on the grave. The grave was last used? for lack of a better word in 1962. So 50 years ago.. And it had little things left. I will upload picture from the phone when I am done typing this.

So I walked and walked and I noticed a work truck from the cemetery doing laps around me. The cemetery is cut up in blocks. I do have a map of it and I will show you that too.

So after about 30 mins they stopped where I was and a guy hopped out and asked if I needed help. I have been to a lot of cemeteries and never had someone ask me if I needed help.

I told them I was there looking for old family members. They seemed okay with that. I did go into the office and ask for help in locating my friend who had passed, But I also asked a lot of questions. There really is no other place for her to be buried. That is the biggest and cemetery in bucks county. They go back to 1947. I bet she is there. It is just going to take more time finding her.

I wonder if the things left at that particular grave, are because someone thinks that is where she might be? I don't know. I did see other Doguhertys but not one that said CA or Carol or Carol Ann.

Let me upload and Ill show you.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Here is grave I was talking about

 

[Robin Hood]

My personal view is that Carol Ann spoke to her attacker in the church and discussed she was off the the library and the church was a spur of the moment idea.
The attacker realised that nobody was aware that Carol Ann could be connected to the premises and slid the bolt on the door and went about his attack. I don't think Carol Ann was dragged up the loft stairs until after she was dead or unconscious. I know the limited info we have suggests it was before the attack that she was dragged, feet first, up the stairs. I disagree ,if she wasn't able to remove the sock in her mouth to scream, whilst her legs are held, IMO, therefore she's incapable.
The attack took place with the intention of the body being hidden until such time it could be removed (notice the back of the church on Google, path through cemetry to parking lot at rear of Rectory house) So, when the girls and bank clerk come knocking the perp looks out the window to check if it's flock or staff trying to get in. That's when to his horror he notices the bike and realises he can't just open the door and allow the flock to enter. So, he waits and makes his getaway at the rear of the church after unlocking the door. If it wasn't for that damned bike I don't think Carol Ann would have been found near the church, if found at all.
All my opinion from the scanty facts we know.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Our+...d=16574278311937899691&gl=US&t=h&z=18&iwloc=A

Here is cemetery.

There is a one left section at the bottom left of the screen. Move one section over and then up. That is mainly 1958-63

I know that one of the detectives felt it was more than one attacker. One to hold her and one to kill her. I wonder if she was already dead before sexual attack?

 

[Robin Hood]

I was meaning the cemetry behind the church where Carol Ann died, you can see an easy route to the rectory via the church yard and car park at the rear.

I still think one attacker, unless the detective knew something I haven't covered.

 

[Ausgirl]

My personal view is that Carol Ann spoke to her attacker in the church and discussed she was off the the library and the church was a spur of the moment idea.
The attacker realised that nobody was aware that Carol Ann could be connected to the premises and slid the bolt on the door and went about his attack. I don't think Carol Ann was dragged up the loft stairs until after she was dead or unconscious. I know the limited info we have suggests it was before the attack that she was dragged, feet first, up the stairs. I disagree ,if she wasn't able to remove the sock in her mouth to scream, whilst her legs are held, IMO, therefore she's incapable.
The attack took place with the intention of the body being hidden until such time it could be removed (notice the back of the church on Google, path through cemetry to parking lot at rear of Rectory house) So, when the girls and bank clerk come knocking the perp looks out the window to check if it's flock or staff trying to get in. That's when to his horror he notices the bike and realises he can't just open the door and allow the flock to enter. So, he waits and makes his getaway at the rear of the church after unlocking the door. If it wasn't for that damned bike I don't think Carol Ann would have been found near the church, if found at all.
All my opinion from the scanty facts we know.

Great post, RH. And very plausible, it fits with the sequence of events and makes perfect sense - the only thing I don't understand is why he'd unlock the door before fleeing.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I was meaning the cemetry behind the church where Carol Ann died, you can see an easy route to the rectory via the church yard and car park at the rear.

I still think one attacker, unless the detective knew something I haven't covered.

Yes I understand that is what you were meaning. . I just wanted you to see the place that I believe is her resting place. I hope by finding her obituary I may be able to get more info.

I think your theory is plausible. I have a lot swirling in my head today. I'm hoping to be able to focus after I get rid of my cold!!

 

[Robin Hood]

Great post, RH. And very plausible, it fits with the sequence of events and makes perfect sense - the only thing I don't understand is why he'd unlock the door before fleeing.

IMO he had to unlock the door, if not, somebody would have gone to the back exit of the church and immediately realised something was wrong. By unlocking the door he assumed that parishoners would just come and sit in the pews and pray, who would go and search the building ? Nobody straight away, because as far as he knew, it could be a few hours before for Carol Ann was missed. But, she was missed, and the loft/stairs were searched.

This gave time for the perp to get in his car and go to the shop (where the alibi was put in place) and ask the time. As far as the perp was aware she still hadn't been found and he was hoping that his false alibi would come into play and cover the timespan. He had no idea it would move so quickly, from missing to found, it was a great attempt but I bet that alibi was tight. Imagine if she hadn't been found until later that day, he would be home and dry.
I don't know his alibi time frame because I haven't seen the police files but if we could, I'd wager a fat lump of dosh it was literally 10-15mins.
All because of that bloody bike.

 

[Robin Hood]

Back to the '12' connection. Look at constants and not variables. I may have a theory but I need to do more research, the area I'm looking at isn't easily worked.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

What year did article say 12 was mentioned? I wonder since I'm am local to vidocq society if I can get info?

 

[Robin Hood]

It's mentioned here.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/blogs/ne...cle_40e64d30-a3be-5a40-a5a7-3024fc64191e.html

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

So 1992. Making the killer if alive 30 years older...


I just have to wonder, if it was truly something from the killer, Or just a crack pot. I don't think the priest, Would do that if it were him. He would want to stay hidden.

If someone knew something, They could easily let someone know without a game..

I don't know..

 

[Robin Hood]

It wasn't the killer in my opinion but somebody I think he told and the person wasn't a Priest. It's possible the person was also unable to reveal it openly because of oaths he wouldn't break.

Edited to add - and I don't mean a medical doctor.

 

[Ausgirl]

I was looking for specifically Catholic connections to '12' - there's lots..

Latin for 12 is 'duodecim' - which is in the title of a chapter of a book, 'Debent duodecim sacerdotes' - "There must be 12 priests' (I think) - in which is set out the ritual of anathema, which is excommunication.

12 is heavily connected to Mary, too.