GUILTY PA - Husband charged in cyanide poisoning death of Dr. Autumn Klein

[time]

I have absolutely no idea if this means anything, but I find it odd that Dr. Ferrante said that his wife was taking Creatine somehow in an efort to get pregnant and/or increase fertility. Dr. Ferrante co-authored this with Dr. Klein, 2008:

The Neuroprotective Role of Creatine
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-4020-6486-9_11

Creatine is a critical component in maintaining cellular energy homeostasis, and its administration has been reported to be neuroprotective in a wide number of both acute and chronic experimental models of neurological disease. In the context of this chapter, we will review the experimental evidence for creatine supplementation as a neurotherapeutic strategy in patients with neurological disorders, including Huntington’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, and Alzheimer’s disease, as well as in ischemic stroke, brain and spinal cord trauma, and epilepsy

On the contrary, it seems there is evidence that Cyanide can cause neurological disorder.

The Journal of Neuroscience, October 1993, 13(10) 4189
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/13/10/4181.full.pdf

Ingestion of 3-NP has been linked to toxicity in both livestock
an in human (Ludolph et al., 1991). Chronic poisoning in livestock leads to labored respiration, generalized weakness, abnormal gait, and hind limb paralysis. Exposure in human has occurred in China where children have ingested sugar cane contaminated with the fungus Arthrinium (Ludolph et al., 199 1). The clinical picture consists of an acute enceph- alopathy followed by appearance of a delayed onset dystonia 1 l-60 d after ingestion. The patients experience torsion spasms, torticollis, facial grimacing, and jerk-like movements. CT scans show bilateral hypodensities in the putamen and to a lesser extent the globus pallidus. It is of interest that a similar distribution of lesions has been seen in human following cyanide overdoses (Uitti et al., 1985; Carella et al., 1988; Rosenberg et al., 1989). We characterized both the neurochemical features and the neuronal specificity of striatal lesions induced with 3-NP.

Dr. Ferrante's work from the 1990's is cited several times in the study above.

 

[Paulette]

I don't know husband's birthday but he is much older than she was. I've seen it reported that he is 64.

Right, she was born Nov. '71 & he must have been born 1949. That's a 22 year age difference - he's a bit long in the tooth to be starting a family. It was mentioned that she wanted another baby - wonder how that set with him? He would be 84 by the time it was raised.

Still, was that reason enough to poison her? I just can't around how obvious her dying of cyanide poisoning & him ordering a batch 2 days before. Could anyone be so naive as to think these 2 coincidences would go unnoticed?

 

[time]

Right, she was born Nov. '71 & he must have been born 1949. That's a 22 year age difference - he's a bit long in the tooth to be starting a family. It was mentioned that she wanted another baby - wonder how that set with him? He would be 84 by the time it was raised.

Still, was that reason enough to poison her? I just can't around how obvious her dying of cyanide poisoning & him ordering a batch 2 days before. Could anyone be so naive as to think these 2 coincidences would go unnoticed?

Maybe he didn't think they would test for cyanide and it would never be known. I'm actually surprised they found it given what I've now read.

 

[Ausgirl]

The hubby so did it, IMO. I'm always happy to be wrong, but here I seriously doubt I am.

But what gets me is - he is a smart, educated man. How'd he even begin to think he'd get away with it, leaving such a clear trail? Something more is up with him, possibly, and I am guessing he's got a laundry list of problems we haven't heard about yet.

 

[jjenny]

They don't normally test for cyanide. In this case her organs were donated, and autopsy was not done. If her death was ruled due to natural causes, and her body created, then nobody would have been able figure this out. I think something must have made hospital suspicous to test her blood for poisons, but that was done only after her body was already cremated and organs donated.

 

[danzn16]

Surely the husband would know this is too traceable. Has there been any evidence against him?


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[jjenny]

Surely the husband would know this is too traceable. Has there been any evidence against him?


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What do you consider evidence?

 

[AlwaysShocked]

With the death now being designated a homicide, it likely won't be all that long until hubby is arrested. If his lab does in fact use cyanide, which the doctor who ran it until a little over a year ago said was never used, and he just happened to buy some two days prior to his wife's death by cyanide, he better hope the testing shows a different batch.

How many defenses have we all seen based on "my client is too smart to have done something that stupid"?

I don't know what happens to these supposedly "smart" people who murder. I've known several people who went through horrible, nasty divorces. My own (1st husband) was no picnic. But murder as a solution? Killing the mother of your small child?

I think they'll get him. But they're going to need to employ one of the nation's finest chemists to do the testing of the cyanide samples. But then again, who knows, the manufacturers of cyanide may add an inert "marker" substance to their product that would make it identifiable. That would be great!

 

[danzn16]

What do you consider evidence?

Anything other than both had access to the poison. I haven't heard anything new on the news since then so wondering if there is more


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[LynnM]

Dr Ferrante has studied the potential of creatine to act as a neuroprotectant for years. There is a Phase III clinical trial now going on for Huntington's disease (HD) patients which is based in part on his work. There are two possible mechanisms by which creatine could protect brain cells. One that it acts as an antioxidant and could reduce the oxidative damage that is associated with HD. The other is that is boosts cellular metabolism which is known to be reduced in HD.

Years ago, neurodegenerative diseases were modeled in mice by using neurotoxins. Dr. Ferrante used N3-P and malonate I believe. They cause damage that looks like HD and some other neurodegenerative diseases. The problem with using toxin models is that the damage is acute where as neurodegeneration is slow. Now we have genetic mouse models for HD and also for ALS so potential disease modifying drugs are tried that way because those mice develop the disease slowly, like people do. They are expensive though so researchers might do a small neurotoxin model study first with normal mice - or not.

Cyanide is not used to model HD but it can be used to model ALS. It would be important to know if the recent shipment to his lab was a first time thing or a reorder of a product used in ongoing research.

 

[jjenny]

The bottle was reportedly ordered very recently. Was it found open? Were his fingerprints on it (of course researcher would probably use gloves), but I am sure they are checking it anyway. Would there be any experiments done in the reported several days after it was purchased? We are obvioulsy not privy to all the evidence, but I am sure police are investigating this right now.

 

[time]

Dr Ferrante has studied the potential of creatine to act as a neuroprotectant for years. There is a Phase III clinical trial now going on for Huntington's disease (HD) patients which is based in part on his work. There are two possible mechanisms by which creatine could protect brain cells. One that it acts as an antioxidant and could reduce the oxidative damage that is associated with HD. The other is that is boosts cellular metabolism which is known to be reduced in HD.

Years ago, neurodegenerative diseases were modeled in mice by using neurotoxins. Dr. Ferrante used N3-P and malonate I believe. They cause damage that looks like HD and some other neurodegenerative diseases. The problem with using toxin models is that the damage is acute where as neurodegeneration is slow. Now we have genetic mouse models for HD and also for ALS so potential disease modifying drugs are tried that way because those mice develop the disease slowly, like people do. They are expensive though so researchers might do a small neurotoxin model study first with normal mice - or not.

Cyanide is not used to model HD but it can be used to model ALS. It would be important to know if the recent shipment to his lab was a first time thing or a reorder of a product used in ongoing research.

Do you think the 'fact' (not really know for sure) that she was taking large amounts of Creatine would be a reason she didn't die almost instantly from a Cyanide overdose?

Do you know of any reason a woman would take large amounts of Creatine to get pregnant?

 

[jjenny]

Do you think the 'fact' (not really know for sure) that she was taking large amounts of Creatine would be a reason she didn't die almost instantly from a Cyanide overdose?

Do you know of any reason a woman would take large amounts of Creatine to get pregnant?

I believe the idea that she was taking large amounts of creatine comes from the hubby. Thus I would take it with a grain of salt.
I searched but have not found anything about large amounts of creatine enabling someone to get pregnant.

 

[time]

I believe the idea that she was taking large amounts of creatine comes from the hubby. Thus I would take it with a grain of salt.
I searched but have not found anything about large amounts of creatine enabling someone to get pregnant.

Yeah, I'm beginning to think it was made up. I wonder if they collected blood and tissue samples before cremation and if that can be tested for Creatine levels... and also, if there was any other evidence she was taking it.

I'm really curious about the email exchanges they said were found.

 

[LynnM]

Do you think the 'fact' (not really know for sure) that she was taking large amounts of Creatine would be a reason she didn't die almost instantly from a Cyanide overdose?

Do you know of any reason a woman would take large amounts of Creatine to get pregnant?

That is a really good question. I don't know the answer but something is very odd about her having 30 times the lethal dosage in her body and living three days. There was no autopsy so it wasn't an autopsy result. Was it a blood sample taken on admission to the hospital? If so, how could she continue to live? If it was taken shortly before she died then that would mean that someone had to give her more cyanide in the hospital unless something was partially counteracting the cyanide. If she was taking something which partially counteracted the cyanide, could she have ingested it in a lab accident? Otherwise that's not possible because she walked home and wasn't stricken until she got home.

Cyanide works by blocking the production of cellular energy. I don't know enough about how creatine boosts cellular energy to know if creatine would have a protective effect.

There is no research that I could find which links creatine to increased fertility. It's possible that something about the research into creatine suggested to her that it might and she took it just in case, not worrying because it has a good safety profile.

That brings me to something I read in one of the articles. According to an unidentified source, Cyril Wecht has been hired to explore the possibility that the large doses of creatine could metabolize into cyanide. That makes absolutely no sense to me because people are taking large doses of creatine in clinical trials that have been going on for years. Safety issues are monitored periodically. No one's died and there's been nothing of concern to stop any of the trials. Maybe he's been hired to find out if creatine partially protects against cyanide and the defense, if it gets that far, will argue for a lab accident.

I suspect that this case is going to hinge on some very complex science.

 

[jjenny]

I presume once in the hospital, she was on live support. With the life support machines, one who would be otherwise dead can be considered "living" since they are not technically dead.

 

[time]

I presume once in the hospital, she was on live support. With the life support machines, one who would be otherwise dead can be considered "living" since they are not technically dead.

Yeah, it could be and could be they did something more than the typical to save her? IDK

 

[time]

That is a really good question. I don't know the answer but something is very odd about her having 30 times the lethal dosage in her body and living three days. There was no autopsy so it wasn't an autopsy result. Was it a blood sample taken on admission to the hospital? If so, how could she continue to live? If it was taken shortly before she died then that would mean that someone had to give her more cyanide in the hospital unless something was partially counteracting the cyanide. If she was taking something which partially counteracted the cyanide, could she have ingested it in a lab accident? Otherwise that's not possible because she walked home and wasn't stricken until she got home.

Cyanide works by blocking the production of cellular energy. I don't know enough about how creatine boosts cellular energy to know if creatine would have a protective effect.

There is no research that I could find which links creatine to increased fertility. It's possible that something about the research into creatine suggested to her that it might and she took it just in case, not worrying because it has a good safety profile.

That brings me to something I read in one of the articles. According to an unidentified source, Cyril Wecht has been hired to explore the possibility that the large doses of creatine could metabolize into cyanide. That makes absolutely no sense to me because people are taking large doses of creatine in clinical trials that have been going on for years. Safety issues are monitored periodically. No one's died and there's been nothing of concern to stop any of the trials. Maybe he's been hired to find out if creatine partially protects against cyanide and the defense, if it gets that far, will argue for a lab accident.

I suspect that this case is going to hinge on some very complex science.

Thank you for your perspective and thinking through the possibilities.

Earlier in the thread, I wonder if Dr. Klein actually had a neurological disorder and was taking Creatine because of that. Maybe no one else knew and it was in early stages? So, in a sideways was, she could have been strengthening her health because she intended on getting pregnant?

I am very curious to hear when and how they determined she was poisoned. And, as you pointed out, if it was such a huge dose, then there is the question of it not being an accident at the lab.

Perplexing... yes, probably some complex science we will hear if it goes to trial.

I am hoping there is some way they can trace the cyanide in her body to the source through chemical analysis.

If she ingested cyanide after getting home and someone gave her massive B12 immediately, would the level of cyanide showing on tests be the same or would it be lowered?

 

[jjenny]

There has been absolutely nothing reported to suggest she had any sort of neurological disorder.
Also I don't think anything suggests she was given B12 at any point of time after cyanide poisoning. It looks that hospital didn't know she had cyanide poisioning until she was already dead. Thus she was presumably not given any antidotes. There are a number of antidotes for cyanide poisoning, not just B12. I don't she got anything for cyanide poisoning at all.

 

[time]

There has been absolutely nothing to suggest she had any sort of neurological disorder.
Also I don't think anything suggests she was given B12 at any point of time after cyanide poisoning. It looks that hospital didn't know she had cyanide poisioning until she was already dead. Thus she was presumably not given any antidotes. There are a number of antidotes for cyanide poisoning, not just B12. I don't she got anything for cyanide poisoning at all.

On the B12, I was suggesting someone changed their mind and maybe tried to save her. It's just a really wild theory since it's difficult at this point to see how she lived so long.

I don't think there is anything public to suggest she had a neurological disorder, rather that she may have been in the early stages of one and no one else knew except maybe her husband. I suppose she could have been taking creatine for reasons more akin to why athletes take it - or, as you said, she wasn't taking it. Right now we don't know for certain she was or wasn't taking it. That's an odd thing for hubby to reveal in a sideways manner to Wecht. Although I can't figure out why Wecht said that in an interview either - maybe he meant to have it revealed.

I was also just pondering whether the hospital could have given her transfusions, B12, or whatever other proceedure/chemical compound might have acted as an antidote - but was intended as desperate measures not as an antidote.