Identified! PA - Philadelphia - 'Boy in the Box' - 4UMPA - Feb'57 #3 - Joseph Augustus Zarelli

[Buzzaround]

3) I also worked in record management for a while (dealing with East Coast records) and let me tell you: THEY ARE A MESS. Not only because they were largely neglected for the most part, but also because of the amount anti-immigrant sentiments that occurred and lack of care. "You said your last name was Zarelli?" "Si, Cierelli." "Great. Joseph Zarelli." A potentially poorly educated population and or careless note taker and BAM.

This is where my mind went with respect to law enforcement mentioning something about "inaccuracies" on Joseph's birth certficiate. I figured it might have to do with the incorrect spelling of a parent's surname.

 

[AgnesTurnip]

This is where my mind went with respect to law enforcement mentioning something about "inaccuracies" on Joseph's birth certificate. I figured it might have to do with the incorrect spelling of a parent's surname.

Yeah, fortunately they do have living relatives that should be (may be) able to positively identify Joey's parents, rather than relying strictly on documentation.

My own great-grandmother spelled her own name 7 different ways between 1925 and 1980 when she died. Both her first and last name so ancestry and using those records is a mess.

 

[GingerSnapped]

Ugh, poor baby. I have wondered who you were for so many years, and while it still makes me sad...I'm so happy you finally have a name and we can say it out loud. I don't believe his parents were responsible for this, nor do I think they even knew of his death. I honestly believe his siblings probably did not know about his existence.

 

[RaspberryMama]

Okay, I just registered because of a few things. Philly area native here and just wanted to drop a few cultural reminders and tidbits on the line to maybe help out?

1) West Philly was a predominately Italian working-class neighborhood back in that day that Joseph would have been born. I know from friend's whose families have been in the area for years as well as those who have just moved here that when groups of people immigrate, there can often be clumps of people from the same areas coming to the same place because they have reported doing well from the US. That means that not only is there a tendency for Roman-catholic Italian families to have a lot of children (I am stereotyping forgive me) but they could also have cousins come which make an even wider net.

TL;DR - Like many others have said Zarelli isn't as uncommon as you think.

2) I worked in for a brief period as an assistant for a property management firm around my area and heard talk about was a property company/ construction company owned by a family named Zarelli doing work in DELCO. They were big property owners. BUT, it should also be said a lot of prominent families in the Philly area Italian because of the reason I listed above and how migration operates.

3) I also worked in record management for a while (dealing with East Coast records) and let me tell you: THEY ARE A MESS. Not only because they were largely neglected for the most part, but also because of the amount anti-immigrant sentiments that occurred and lack of care. "You said your last name was Zarelli?" "Si, Cierelli." "Great. Joseph Zarelli." A potentially poorly educated population and or careless note taker and BAM.

I hope some of this insight helped. (And that I didn't break any rules. :$)

Edit: Also, would it help to drop a transcript of the press conference somewhere?

I, for one, would LOVE to have a transcript of the PC to refer to.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

My play sister was born, to a teenage mother in 1963, in Philadelphia, and at least informally adopted by her great aunt and uncle. That was standard in the 1950's and 1960's.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I really don't know why everybody keeps focusing so closely on the male Zarellis as potential fathers. If a child is born in 1953 to parents who are not married, it is very likely that his birth certificate will name the father but his surname will be the same as his mother.

Because the family is denying it even though the geneologist confirmed that identity was the same name as on the birth ceritficate. If the family was not connected by name they wouldnt say anything.. Ww would never know who it was

 

[bears10]

Okay, I just registered because of a few things. Philly area native here and just wanted to drop a few cultural reminders and tidbits on the line to maybe help out?

1) West Philly was a predominately Italian working-class neighborhood back in that day that Joseph would have been born. I know from friend's whose families have been in the area for years as well as those who have just moved here that when groups of people immigrate, there can often be clumps of people from the same areas coming to the same place because they have reported doing well from the US. That means that not only is there a tendency for Roman-catholic Italian families to have a lot of children (I am stereotyping forgive me) but they could also have cousins come which make an even wider net.

TL;DR - Like many others have said Zarelli isn't as uncommon as you think.

2) I worked in for a brief period as an assistant for a property management firm around my area and heard talk about was a property company/ construction company owned by a family named Zarelli doing work in DELCO. They were big property owners. BUT, it should also be said a lot of prominent families in the Philly area Italian because of the reason I listed above and how migration operates.

3) I also worked in record management for a while (dealing with East Coast records) and let me tell you: THEY ARE A MESS. Not only because they were largely neglected for the most part, but also because of the amount anti-immigrant sentiments that occurred and lack of care. "You said your last name was Zarelli?" "Si, Cierelli." "Great. Joseph Zarelli." A potentially poorly educated population and or careless note taker and BAM.

I hope some of this insight helped. (And that I didn't break any rules. :$)

Edit: Also, would it help to drop a transcript of the press conference somewhere?

They IDed him through dna though, not jsut records.

 

[RaspberryMama]

Yeah, fortunately they do have living relatives that should be (may be) able to positively identify Joey's parents, rather than relying strictly on documentation.

Oh, I'm offering. I read through the other thread and I figure it might be helpful to have a transcript for those that might not have been able to listen or can't remember what was said. I'll get to it now.

If the PC was on YouTube, there's often an automated transcript along with it (under the info area). That might be a help to you. Thank you so much for offering to do this!!

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Given that we're likely talking about a Roman Catholic family in the 1950s, yeah - all of this is entirely possible.

Law enforcement's usage of the phrase "siblings from parents on both sides" appears to back up the idea that Joseph was born out of wedlock. What happened to him afterward is anyone's guess.

My gut tells me he was put up for adoption. Again, obligatory MOO.

Yes and it is not the area it once was. My goal is to find out where The father worked. The boy was found on the of the road. It was more rural then but still not a busy street. I was there about 20 years ago standing outside. There are houses across the street from where he was found now. When they give him his name on his stone I am going to visit.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Yes and it is not the area it once was. My goal is to find out where The father worked. The boy was found on the of the road. It was more rural then but still not a busy street. I was there about 20 years ago standing outside. There are houses across the street from where he was found now. When they give him his name on his stone I am going to visit.

I Dont think so. I think it means they were divorced or One had kids coming into the marriage. Step children.

 

[DFWNF]

My play sister was born, to a teenage mother in 1963, in Philadelphia, and at least informally adopted by her great aunt and uncle. That was standard in the 1950's and 1960's.

My dear friend too. Unmarried teen Mom. The baby, my pal, was adopted to an uncle and aunt who could not have babies.

 

[osadelnorte]

Gotcha. Imo it's also a possibility that the mom was the last one to see him iykwim. I don't necessarily take that lady Martha's story as gospel, which I think may be the difference in my thinking.

<modsnip> My mom was in her 30s when she had me in 1986, and she was basically considered a dinosaur. She had my oldest brother when she was 20, which seems way more in alignment with society in those days.

I don't really have a point with this post lol. I'm just putting my thoughts down onto "paper".

I agree about age at birth. My mom was born the same year as Joseph (less than a month after him, actually), and her mother was considered "old" at her birth, being 32 at the time. She'd only gotten married at 29 years old, which was also somewhat unusual, especially in the Italian-Catholic community she came from (NYC not Phila, but very similar culture).

 

[Buzzaround]

One other thing. As I've now stated in way too many posts, law enforcement's usage of the phrase "siblings from parents on both sides" really feels like a valuable quote from today's presser. So using that little bit of information, what sorts of possibilities can we talk about with respect to Joseph's parentage?

1. Joseph was born out of wedlock, and each of his biological parents had children with other partners.

2. Joseph was born into a marriage. His parents divorced and had children with other partners.

Again, because we're talking about a - presumably - Roman Catholic Italian American family in the 1950s, I think a divorce is most likely out of the question. Throughout the 1950s, divorce rates ranged from about 2.1 to 2.5 divorces for every 1,000 Americans - those rates are presumably even lower for Roman Catholics in that time period.

So what's the point? While it's possible that marriage records might lead to valuable information in this case, I think it's more likely that they'll be of no value at all. Joseph's birth certificate is likely the ONLY document that has any value in helping to determine who BOTH of his parents were.

 

[blackbeary]

This is what I believe, too

I had difficulty hearing the reporter's questions. Mr Smith was so strict and seemed like he would rather not be there. Hopefully, there will be a breakthrough into who little Joe lived with, and who was the weak minded person that beat that baby to DEATH

 

[jinger]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> Of course and many bio dads I have found are married men. However, especially in this time period, a birth mom definitely wouldn’t have given her out of wedlock child a paternal family middle name and fathers last name. If he was adopted or kept she probably would have “ made up” a fathers last name, left it blank or used her maiden last name. Just patterns I have noticed in all the cases ive solved.

Jinger
I am italian. Ancestry DNA very ably found that my children were my children when I uploaded all of our DNA. <modsnip> I do not see how it would preclude the mother being of Italian American descent. Many members of my italian family have done the DNA on ancestry and 23 and Me. I promise you they are able to determine who we are related to and our ethinicity.
<modsnip>

Of course ancestry dna would tell you that you match your children.. I speak from absolute knowledge of recent immigration from Italy and how the matches reflect on ancestry dna. It’s possible a potential bf was a first generation Italian American, making Joseph only a second. The more recent you are to immigration, the less matches you will have. That is a fact. This can be true for any ethnic background. Cases involving Mexican and Norwegian descent , for example , can also be very difficult. Most people in Italy do not test on ancestry dna let alone upload to ged match. That is why they found the biological father through a document and then tested dna with the child and found the mother through dna matches solely. Again, remember that dna researchers cannot use mainstream ancestry dna and rely on ged match which has way less matches.

 

[Sashy]

As far as the name on birth certificate not being exact, many people are thinking of the last name. However, it could be the first as well. Think of an Italian first name being Americanized…it could take several forms. (Evident on the census) And of course there are also the mistakes that happen.

 

[Ontario Mom]

One other thing. As I've now stated in way too many posts, law enforcement's usage of the phrase "siblings from parents on both sides" really feels like a valuable quote from today's presser. So using that little bit of information, what sorts of possibilities can we talk about with respect to Joseph's parentage?

1. Joseph was born out of wedlock, and each of his biological parents had children with other partners, either before or after his birth.

2. Joseph was born into a marriage. His parents divorced and had children with other partners, again, either before or after his birth.

Again, because we're talking about a - presumably - Roman Catholic Italian American family in the 1950s, I think a divorce is most likely out of the question. Throughout the 1950s, divorce rates ranged from about 2.1 to 2.5 divorces for every 1,000 Americans - those rates are presumably even lower for Roman Catholics in that time period.

So what's the point? While it's possible that marriage records might lead to valuable information in this case, I think it's more likely that they'll be of no value at all. Joseph's birth certificate is likely the ONLY document that has any value in helping to determine who BOTH of his parents were.

Based on today's presser (and the divorce stats you mention about RC divorce in the 50's), I'd say #1 is the more likely answer & mom put dad's name on the BC, whether dad or his family knew anything about it or not.

Assuming he stayed with his mother after being born, I'd also say there was later a step-father involved.

jmo

 

[MeadowMuffin]

There was something in the presser I didn't understand, not being a medical person - the ME said there was evidence that he had some sort of intravenous treatment, was the correct, and what was the significance of that? Would that have had to have happened shortly prior to his death?

If I recall, there was some sort of evidence of a surgery, wasn't there? I wonder if those records still exist.

He had surgical scars on an ankle and groin, and a scar under his chin. I don't know if hospital records were gone through, but one fingerprint investigator, William Kelly, scoured through footprint records and couldn't find his. Begs the question, home birth?

 

[squareandrabbet]

Okay, I just registered because of a few things. Philly area native here and just wanted to drop a few cultural reminders and tidbits on the line to maybe help out?

1) West Philly was a predominately Italian working-class neighborhood back in that day that Joseph would have been born. I know from friend's whose families have been in the area for years as well as those who have just moved here that when groups of people immigrate, there can often be clumps of people from the same areas coming to the same place because they have reported doing well from the US. That means that not only is there a tendency for Roman-catholic Italian families to have a lot of children (I am stereotyping forgive me) but they could also have cousins come which make an even wider net.

TL;DR - Like many others have said Zarelli isn't as uncommon as you think.

2) I worked in for a brief period as an assistant for a property management firm around my area and heard talk about was a property company/ construction company owned by a family named Zarelli doing work in DELCO. They were big property owners. BUT, it should also be said a lot of prominent families in the Philly area Italian because of the reason I listed above and how migration operates.

3) I also worked in record management for a while (dealing with East Coast records) and let me tell you: THEY ARE A MESS. Not only because they were largely neglected for the most part, but also because of the amount anti-immigrant sentiments that occurred and lack of care. "You said your last name was Zarelli?" "Si, Cierelli." "Great. Joseph Zarelli." A potentially poorly educated population and or careless note taker and BAM.

I hope some of this insight helped. (And that I didn't break any rules. :$)

Edit: Also, would it help to drop a transcript of the press conference somewhere?

Not to mention all that spidery handwriting... I had a few hacks at tracing my forebears through the last available ancestry.com US census (1890? 1910?) And... they're messes. Anyone with sharp eyes can tell you that some people/sources used underwhelming OCR programs and did not bother to check them with the naked eye.

as time goes by, people drop the Senior and Junior in discussion; you have to pay attention to the ages; there is deaths from natural causes, and reusing of names from deceased children; there is family conventions, where all of a sudden daughter “Emmaline“ will be called by a totally random family nickname of "Bertie" or smth thereafter... I could go on.

 

[fridaybaker]

5. - though she identified Joseph as "Jonathan”.

RBSBM: Huge clue, in my book.