PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[SuperSmith]

I pulled a Statement of Financial Interests Form and I assume the discussion is of Block 10 on the form.

If I had to venture a guess I would say he was contributing to his Pension as it is not reportable on this statement (according to the instructions). He could've been contributing up to 20% of his income.

Block 10

DIRECT OR INDIRECT SOURCES OF INCOME: List the name and address of each source of $1,300 or more of gross income regardless of whether such income is received solely by you or jointly by you and another individual such as a spouse. "Income" includes any money or thing of value received or to be received as a claim on future services or in recognition of services rendered in
the past, whether in the form of a payment, fee, salary, expense, allowance, forbearance, forgiveness, interest, dividend, royalty, rent, capital gain, reward, severance payment, proceeds from the sale of a financial interest in a corporation, professional corporation, partnership or other entity resulting from termination/withdrawal there from upon assumption of public office or employment or any other form of recompense or combination thereof. The term refers to gross income; it includes prize winnings and tax-exempt income
but does not include gifts, governmentally mandated payments or benefits, retirement, pension or annuity payments funded totally by contributions of the public official or employee, or miscellaneous, incidental income of minor dependent children. If you do not have ANY reportable source of income, check "NONE."



I'm not sure interest from his public employee salary is applicable. I interpreted it as a secondary income as say a second job or winning the lottery, or selling grandmas antiques etc.

I'm also not sure how seriously these forms are taken. I've never heard of the Ethics Commission conducting a forensic audit of your finances unless you are being considered for fraud.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

I pulled a Statement of Financial Interests Form and I assume the discussion is of Block 10 on the form.

If I had to venture a guess I would say he was contributing to his Pension as it is not reportable on this statement (according to the instructions). He could've been contributing up to 20% of his income.

I'm not sure interest from his public employee salary is applicable. I interpreted it as a secondary income as say a second job or winning the lottery, or selling grandmas antiques etc.

I'm also not sure how seriously these forms are taken. I've never heard of the Ethics Commission conducting a forensic audit of your finances unless you are being considered for fraud.

That would be payment he got from his pension, not payments he made to his pension. A payment into his pension fund is not income.

For that clause to kick in the public official:

1. Would have had to been the sole contributor to a retirement fund. His employer would not have contributed.

2. Would have to retire.

3. Would have to start collecting money from the fund.

The interest is not from his "public salary." It would be interest on money put into the bank, for example. He did report, correctly, his salary as DA, which was over $1300.

So RFG either:

1. Was making $120 K+ for two years and had no savings that generated $1300 from a single source.

2. Falsified the forms.

3. Couldn't figure out how to fill out a one page form, despite having to do it for 19 years. Neither could his daughter, despite having a college degree and being represented by a top attorney in the county, who had to fill out the forms as candidate for DA in 1985 and judge in 1997.

#2 is unlikely, and #3 is ridiculous.

A forensic audit could be conducted by LE just in regard to RFG being a missing person. In theory, if the possibility exists of #2, even an unlikely possibility, that could be the grounds for ordering one.

 

[SuperSmith]

If RFG was making 125K/year his bring home after taxes would be $3,524.03/bi-weekly.

That equates to a net of $91,624.78/yr without any other deductions or expenses.

For discussion purposes lets see what other expenses he could've incurred.

Pension -Many public employees contribute to their pension along with their employer. Let's say RG contributed a conservative 3% of his salary (I suspect more). That would be $3,750/year.

Insurance -RG could have provided insurance for Lara. Let's say a conservative number of $5,200/yr.

Gas - $40/wk - $2080/yr

Food - $100/wk - $5,200/yr

Vacations/Trips - A conservative $4,000/yr

Electric - $1,080/yr

Heat - $1,800/yr

Clothing (Suits) - $2,000/yr

Water/Sewer - $1,000/yr

Telephone - $600/yr

$91,624.78
-3750
-5200
-2080
-5200
-4000
-1080
-1800
-2000
-1000
-600
$64,914.78

It's not hard at all to spend $91K/yr. Those are conservative deductions and does not include additional taxes to be paid, gifts, Lara's needed expenses, paying off a home mortgage, buying a computer, buying a new vehicle etc.

Point I am trying to show is that it is likely that RG didn't have $1,300 of interest to show on the form in question. This is my perspective only for the last two years discussed.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped

If RFG was making 125K/year his bring home after taxes would be $3,524.03/bi-weekly.

That equates to a net of $91,624.78/yr without any other deductions or expenses.

For discussion purposes lets see what other expenses he could've incurred.

Pension -Many public employees contribute to their pension along with their employer. Let's say RG contributed a conservative 3% of his salary (I suspect more). That would be $3,750/year.

Mine did not, and I was in the State retirement system.

Insurance -RG could have provided insurance for Lara. Let's say a conservative number of $5,200/yr.

I'm not too sure that he would be paying any insurance on Lara, in all probability not all of it. School's often provide insurance for students, at a lower rate. Second, BG would almost certainly pay a share of that.

Gas - $40/wk - $2080/yr

Food - $100/wk - $5,200/yr

Vacations/Trips - A conservative $4,000/yr

Gas might be a bit high. His commute was about three miles. Food at $100/week might be a bit high in 2004. Same with vacations. We don't know of any foreign trips in 2003-04.

Gas was below $2.00/gallon for much of 2004. It was below $1.70 in 2/04 http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2008-12-08-gass-prices-eia_N.htm The region is not known for high gas prices.

Electric - $1,080/yr

Heat - $1,800/yr

Both way too high; I live in expensive Phila, 8 years later, and it is half that much. Also remember that he didn't necessarily pay all the bills.

Clothing (Suits) - $2,000/yr

Water/Sewer - $1,000/yr

Clothing, even from an upper end store, would come to half that, today. I've seen some of his suits and they were either older or not from a top store.

Water/sewer again is way too high; today it would be about $800 a year, if filling a swimming pool, once or twice a year. http://bellefonte.net/faqs/

Also keep in mind he was not necessarily paying all the bills.

Telephone - $600/yr

Possibly, but his cell was county owned and presumably paid for. $50 a month was a bit high even for 2013.

It's not hard at all to spend $91K/yr. Those are conservative deductions and does not include additional taxes to be paid, gifts, Lara's needed expenses, paying off a home mortgage, buying a computer, buying a new vehicle etc.

It is not hard to spend it, but it is difficult to spend it without getting something tangible back.

Point I am trying to show is that it is likely that RG didn't have $1,300 of interest to show on the form in question. This is my perspective only for the last two years discussed.

It wouldn't make a lot of sense spending that amount right before retirement. Suits, for example, might last 3-6 years, if not longer. Since he wasn't going to practice law, he really wouldn't need to update his wardrobe because he would not need to wear a suit too often.

I doubt if he was paying for all of Lara's bills or all of PEF's bills.

 

[Cherry]

I can't believe he was declared dead with so much uncertainty. That should not have been done until the FBI at least, was handed the case. It's unreal.

I think he is still alive and possibly did disappear, for personal reasons.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I can't believe he was declared dead with so much uncertainty. That should not have been done until the FBI at least, was handed the case. It's unreal.

I think he is still alive and possibly did disappear, for personal reasons.

I'm paraphrasing, but the law in PA is basically:

We don't know where he is, we have not heard from him, we've made some efforts to find him.

It is not a high standard, as can be seen in the Brenda Heist case. I believe TG called it "administrative."

All that said, I do not believe LG knows what happened to him. I also have seen no evidence of any criminality on RFG's or LG's part.

 

[SuperSmith]

Respectfully snipped

Mine did not, and I was in the State retirement system.

Sorry about your luck but MOST do. It is up to the individual entity as to how much they as an employer contribute to the employees pension. 3% is on the low end. I suspect RG and Centre County were contributing and it was more than 3% He wouldn't even have a (large) pension if they (Centre County) didn't contribute to it. Being that it has been said his pension was substantial it either is because they (Centre County) contributed a fair percentage and/or RG matched what they did.

I'm not too sure that he would be paying any insurance on Lara, in all probability not all of it. School's often provide insurance for students, at a lower rate. Second, BG would almost certainly pay a share of that.

You could be right and you could be wrong. As indicated it was a hypothetical situation.

Gas might be a bit high. His commute was about three miles. Food at $100/week might be a bit high in 2004. Same with vacations. We don't know of any foreign trips in 2003-04.

Actually the gas and vacations are probably low. Being that RG & PF frequented the Gamble Inn on Fridays he most likely spent $60/wk just there.
Since as you indicated he didn't do any foreign trips then they were domestic hence driving there or flying. Either of which would jack up the gas money or the vacation money. Plus RG liked to go for drives.

Both way too high; I live in expensive Phila, 8 years later, and it is half that much. Also remember that he didn't necessarily pay all the bills.

I respectfully disagree. $90/month for electric is far from way too high. Especially if the home had A/C which I assume it did one way or another.

Depends on what heat was used for the home obviously and how buttoned up the house was, windows, etc.

Clothing, even from an upper end store, would come to half that, today. I've seen some of his suits and they were either older or not from a top store.

I can easily spend $500 on a suit from Kohls!!! For someone that had to wear suits everyday that amount is not much and that's not including his casual clothing.

Water/sewer again is way too high; today it would be about $775 a year, if filling a swimming pool, once or twice a year. http://bellefonte.net/faqs/

I can tell you that where I live just for public sewer it is $516/yr and $240/yr for water if you use the minimum. It depends where you live, the amount of customers served by the municipality or water/sewer company.

Also keep in mind he was not necessarily paying all the bills.

Agreed

Possibly, but his cell was county owned and presumably paid for. $50 a month was a bit high even for 2013.

I was talking about the home phone. Today it is an average of $45 and that's only if you bundle other services.

It is not hard to spend it, but it is difficult to spend it without getting something tangible back.

Tangible is in the eye of the beholder. Helping his daughter, buying some antiques, and taking vacations are tangible things to some people.


It wouldn't make a lot of sense spending that amount right before retirement. Suits, for example, might last 3-6 years, if not longer. Since he wasn't going to practice law, he really wouldn't need to update his wardrobe because he would not need to wear a suit too often.

I understand your point of view. It doesn't make sense to you. Most things do not make sense to everyone. As I indicated I presented a hypothetical. No one can possible know how much expenses he had. My post was a very conservative estimate of expenses to show it was possible that he didn't earn enough interest in those years to report which falls in line with the amount of money left in his accounts.

I doubt if he was paying for all of Lara's bills or all of PEF's bills.

J.J. I am not saying you are entirely wrong about his finances. On the surface it does appear that additional money had to be invested, or gifted, or spent away, or kept in a shoebox buried in the back yard.

There are two sides to every coin and without knowing the intimate details of his finances this avenue of inquiry really cannot go much further. I am completely against a forensic audit of his finances because honestly I do not think its anyone's business that being said the flip to that coin is if it can help catch a killer(s) than I suppose I am for it and so should be Lara Gricar. That's the sticking point for me. If it was my father I would request a forensic audit as a means to an end.

 

[SuperSmith]

I can't believe he was declared dead with so much uncertainty. That should not have been done until the FBI at least, was handed the case. It's unreal.

I think he is still alive and possibly did disappear, for personal reasons.

Cherry, would you care to elaborate on your thoughts? Would be refreshing to read another point of view.

Thank you in advance

 

[SuperSmith]

Sorry I have yet to learn the "multi-quote" feature

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, I just posted a link the total sewer/water/garbage rates for Bellefonte today, and they are no where near the estimate.

Kohl's priciest suit is $400, for a "big and tall" measurement, and it is currently on sale for $250. Some of blazers are under $90.00. http://www.kohls.com/catalog/mens-d...94719809+4294719805+4294714573+4294719808&S=5 Again, RFG would not need to maintain a wardrobe approaching retirement. He wouldn't need to buy ten new suits for 2004-05. He wasn't in court every day, and even then could wear a jacket and tie with dress pants.

While I would expect RFG to contribute to LG's upkeep, $5000 for insurance is well over the top. I think that was more than in state tuition where LG was going. Also remember that LG's parent was probably making more than RFG.

The only known trip was to Ohio, but he would have to be doing a lot of driving to accrue those costs. He would have to have driven about 60,000 miles to have that level of cost (20 MPG at a cost of $0.60/mile, which is high).

I have an old house, AC and live in a more expensive area, at it is no where near that currently. It was much less in 2004.

Tangible would still be tangible; a degree would be tangible, so would a retirement account.

None of these numbers add up to RFG not getting $1300 in interest, especially when RFG was known to be frugal.

 

[SuperSmith]

Well, I just posted a link the total sewer/water/garbage rates for Bellefonte today, and they are no where near the estimate.

Kohl's priciest suit is $400, for a "big and tall" measurement, and it is currently on sale for $250. Some of blazers are under $90.00. http://www.kohls.com/catalog/mens-d...94719809+4294719805+4294714573+4294719808&S=5 Again, RFG would not need to maintain a wardrobe approaching retirement. He wouldn't need to buy ten new suits for 2004-05. He wasn't in court every day, and even then could wear a jacket and tie with dress pants.

While I would expect RFG to contribute to LG's upkeep, $5000 for insurance is well over the top. I think that was more than in state tuition where LG was going. Also remember that LG's parent was probably making more than RFG.

The only known trip was to Ohio, but he would have to be doing a lot of driving to accrue those costs. He would have to have driven about 60,000 miles to have that level of cost (20 MPG at a cost of $0.60/mile, which is high).

I have an old house, AC and live in a more expensive area, at it is no where near that currently. It was much less in 2004.

Tangible would still be tangible; a degree would be tangible, so would a retirement account.

None of these numbers add up to RFG not getting $1300 in interest, especially when RFG was known to be frugal.

For the sake of non-argument lets assume you are correct with your analysis. What is the next course of action regarding this financial avenue?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

For the sake of non-argument lets assume you are correct with your analysis. What is the next course of action regarding this financial avenue?

Look at the possibilities.

First, assume that RFG wasn't falsifying the forms, and wasn't incredibly stupid. The reason he didn't report interest was he didn't have $1300 in single source interest.

Okay, two possibilities. He moved money someplace else prior to 2003. Estate planning, he transferred it to his daughter or to some estate planning vehicle. A single premium life insurance policy is not subject to estate tax, so we can knock that out for a reason not to report the estate tax (Trackergd's point and Smith's counterpoint).

LE is giving strong indications this is walkaway or suicide:

Could Gricar have been lured to the Susquehanna River by a mistress, killed by the woman’s husband?

Could Gricar have been kidnapped by a criminal or a local gang seeking revenge?

“Throw in hard-drive searches and it doesn’t kill the theories, but it makes them virtually impossible,” he said.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/04/ray_gricar_mystery.html

If RFG had previously put most of his money in LG's name, solely, why not just announce that?

Let's go with moved money, for now. How would that be done? Cash is limited to $10 k.

 

[SuperSmith]

If RFG had previously put most of his money in LG's name, solely, why not just announce that?

I'm sorry but I do not understand this line of thinking. In what way was RG obligated to announce that he put most of his money in LG's name or otherwise invested in estate planning?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm sorry but I do not understand this line of thinking. In what way was RG obligated to announce that he put most of his money in LG's name or otherwise invested in estate planning?

Not RFG announcing it, the police and/or the family. The very first questions on finances (at least that I have seen) were in August 2005. It dealt with ATM withdrawals. http://www.post-gazette.com/frontpa...n-photos-of-DA-his-look-alike-from-Texas.html

Explainable and not unusual.

"Missed Leads" came out in May, 2006. http://www.centredaily.com/2006/05/13/3802/missed-leads.html There are questions about finances. DZ says just over $100 K, in joint accounts. The Fenton sighting and RFG acting strangely are both reported. The implication is that RFG walked away, and the maybe he took some money with him, or had it waiting for him.

Okay, if RFG did put a lot of money in LG's name, why doesn't either TG, LG or LE say that? It throws some cold water on walkaway; it doesn't disprove it, but it weakens it. Why not weaken walkaway, if it isn't true?

Since then, we have only had questions from family/LE about money. Not, **Oh, he gave much of it to LG in 2003,** or **He got a single premium life insurance policy for LG in 2002.** It doesn't give a dollar amount (and I think your point about LG not wanting to advertise what she got was valid). It doesn't imply RFG did anything illegal or dishonorable; providing for his daughter is not a bad thing.

 

[SeekingJana]

Not RFG announcing it, the police and/or the family. The very first questions on finances (at least that I have seen) were in August 2005. It dealt with ATM withdrawals. http://www.post-gazette.com/frontpa...n-photos-of-DA-his-look-alike-from-Texas.html

Explainable and not unusual.

"Missed Leads" came out in May, 2006. http://www.centredaily.com/2006/05/13/3802/missed-leads.html There are questions about finances. DZ says just over $100 K, in joint accounts. The Fenton sighting and RFG acting strangely are both reported. The implication is that RFG walked away, and the maybe he took some money with him, or had it waiting for him.


Okay, if RFG did put a lot of money in LG's name, why doesn't either TG, LG or LE say that? It throws some cold water on walkaway; it doesn't disprove it, but it weakens it. Why not weaken walkaway, if it isn't true?

Since then, we have only had questions from family/LE about money. Not, **Oh, he gave much of it to LG in 2003,** or **He got a single premium life insurance policy for LG in 2002.** It doesn't give a dollar amount (and I think your point about LG not wanting to advertise what she got was valid). It doesn't imply RFG did anything illegal or dishonorable; providing for his daughter is not a bad thing.

We also have quoted other links recently which address the finances.
I would like to add to the list about " questions regarding finances".
SPM said the finances were the focus of her office's first part of their investigation.
Also, the person who is the family spokesperson, Tony Gricar, has also said he thought the amount in the bank was too low.

It's been 8.5 years since he disappeared. How long does it take to release a presser regarding the findings of the investigation into finances? Once you've committed yourself publicly to say you're looking into one aspect, as Stacy Parks Miller did a couple of years ago, it seems to me you have also committed yourself to give the results publicly, if only in a blanket statement.

 

[Trackergd]

Thanks for the welcome back!

Would there be any taxes or disclosures needed if RG and LG had a joint bank account? I am wondering if there was a joint checking and savings account. Would that generate an inheritance tax? In a joint account, how would the State know who put what money in?

If that is probable, it may point to careful and low profile planning.

The suicide theory is low on my radar as I would think his partner would have made comments to LE about depression or "acting odd or off".

I would have also thought that if he thought he was a target, he would have taken actions that would have tipped off his partner and daughter that something was wrong (firearm by the bed, carrying a firearm, security system, security lighting etc...). I doubt he would have gone to a clandestine meeting with no backup if he thought he was a target.

I am curious about the "mystery woman". Wondering if she was an employee of one of the shops. Does she still work there or has she "moved on" and no one is sure where she is or where she went?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thanks for the welcome back!

Would there be any taxes or disclosures needed if RG and LG had a joint bank account? I am wondering if there was a joint checking and savings account. Would that generate an inheritance tax? In a joint account, how would the State know who put what money in?

If that is probable, it may point to careful and low profile planning.

The joint account(s) would not be counted in probate, but it would be taxable under PA inheritance tax. http://www.centrelaw.com/page.php?id=47 (See, I told everyone Goodall was smart attorney.) There would be a tax savings.

The suicide theory is low on my radar as I would think his partner would have made comments to LE about depression or "acting odd or off".

She said "tired," which was unusual, and could be a sign of depression. A number of others noticed RFG acting unusually, "distraught," or not focused on events.

I would not rule suicide out, and would note that RFG could have prepared his estate first and then died. We would be talking about it being a well planned suicide, over years. The odds are low on it.

I would have also thought that if he thought he was a target, he would have taken actions that would have tipped off his partner and daughter that something was wrong (firearm by the bed, carrying a firearm, security system, security lighting etc...). I doubt he would have gone to a clandestine meeting with no backup if he thought he was a target.

Or at least some record of going to the clandestine meeting. RFG was not a gun person, according to his nephew.

If there was a clandestine meeting, it was with someone either he trusted, or someone that he couldn't tell family/friends/coworkers he was meeting. He turned his phone off as well. If I was worried, personally, I'd leave it on so if something happened, it could be traced. They could have found the car 6-8 hours earlier if the phone had been on in Lewisburg.

Looking at the search pattern, I think the call was made from either the immediate area of Centre Hall, or west of it.

I am curious about the "mystery woman". Wondering if she was an employee of one of the shops. Does she still work there or has she "moved on" and no one is sure where she is or where she went?

We can pretty much rule out the employee possibility. One, if not two, of the witnesses were shop owners in the SoS. They would have recognized an employee of another business, unless she was very short term.

 

[SuperSmith]

I would have also thought that if he thought he was a target, he would have taken actions that would have tipped off his partner and daughter that something was wrong (firearm by the bed, carrying a firearm, security system, security lighting etc...). I doubt he would have gone to a clandestine meeting with no backup if he thought he was a target.

He may not have known he was being targeted. The being distraught, stressed, and tired could mean he was struggling with something work related. Something he needed to take a day off for to gain perspective. Or perhaps something he had to meet someone to turn over evidence. Or perhaps an issue with an employee. None of which I believe he would've left evidence of.

I do not believe he was in the SOS. There was no scent trail leading from the parking lot to the SOS and no scent trail inside. RG was said to be wearing jeans and blue fleece and certainly wouldn't have stuck out to anyone in a place of commerce. I believe the witnesses that haven't been discredited were mistaken.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

He may not have known he was being targeted. The being distraught, stressed, and tired could mean he was struggling with something work related. Something he needed to take a day off for to gain perspective. Or perhaps something he had to meet someone to turn over evidence. Or perhaps an issue with an employee. None of which I believe he would've left evidence of.

Evidence is possible, or meeting with someone, but why go to the subterfuge of saying that it was a day off? RFG was advertizing this, as it were, as a day off, just like part of the day before. Why not leave a note, or a memo, or tell someone on staff?

There have been other "employee situations," e.g. LM under Madeira, but they were handled in the office. Everyone in the office lived in Centre County, I think. Anything along those lines would not need a 50 mile trip; they could have gone to someone's house, or a restaurant, or to a park bench outside. I cannot see anything involving staff.

I do not believe he was in the SOS. There was no scent trail leading from the parking lot to the SOS and no scent trail inside. RG was said to be wearing jeans and blue fleece and certainly wouldn't have stuck out to anyone in a place of commerce. I believe the witnesses that haven't been discredited were mistaken.

I know of no witness from the SoS on 4/15/05 that were discredited. I will admit that they could be in error, however, they are consistent with the parking lot witnesses, in terms of time.

We do have two witnesses, minimum, that reported seeing RFG with a woman in the SoS at the same time; that had not been reported in the media at the time. The earliest media reports would have been the summer of 2005, if not later.

 

[SuperSmith]

J.J. can you elaborate on this piece you wrote. The number "7" reference is missing. What was dismissed or pending? Thank you in advance.

"Also on 4/19/05, Mr. Smith was suddenly found his job duties dramatically changed. He had his normal job duties as first assistant, plus those of the actual district attorney. There were further problems. One veteran assistant district attorney, Steve Sloane, was on medical leave on 4/19/05 and would be for several weeks. It would be eventually dismissed, but it was still pending at the time. So Mr. Smith was facing a notable manpower problem, one that could be getting worse. There was even more. The police had to look at Mr. Gricar’s official actions, his case records and at the any accounts in the office. That was more of a strain on the limited resources of the office.

Read more here: http://www.centredaily.com/2010/07/...d-the-gricar-disappearance.html#storylink=cpy