PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[J. J. in Phila]

So when I drive up, I probably should take this route to see if anything jumps out at me.

I've looked at it from aerial photographs and Google Streets. Nothing jumped out. I was on the last few miles just outside of Lewisburg.

The first part of 192, outside of Centre Hall, is fairly flat and straight, and the area is farmland. As it isn't regularly patrolled by police, it is an idea place to open up the vehicle. RFG was known to drive relatively fast, in less ideal conditions. (He was once clocked doing 80 MPH on the Benner Pike outside of Bellefonte.)

I have talked to people that knew RFG who have said that the reason he would have chosen 192 was because he could drive fast on it.

 

[alreetlike]

I've always seen Ray's threads around here but I'm just watching an episode of Disappeared on him now, so marking my place to remind me to come back and re-read it all.. or as much as possible, anyway. I see there is a lot to get through!

 

[BigCat]

[/B]

He may have been concerned, but made the trips anyway, for some unknown reason.

If this were true, then I would tend to believe he was involved in some sketchy behavior. Why else wouldn't he just tell law enforcement that he feared for his safety? Or a friend? or his girlfriend? (Or did he and I'm not aware? I feel like I might have missed part of this discussion).

 

[MissJ]

I wonder about suicide. But where is the body?

 

[nittanylioness234]

I've always seen Ray's threads around here but I'm just watching an episode of Disappeared on him now, so marking my place to remind me to come back and re-read it all.. or as much as possible, anyway. I see there is a lot to get through!

There is a lot! I didn't know who Gricar was until the Sandusky scandal, and in particular Gricar's 10/98 meeting with Ganter, and others involved in the 1998 investigation. Recently, I went back to the beginning Gricar thread to read the early information. I've made my way to the 8th thread. I just recently read about the big-haired blonde woman, and about throwing phone books in the Susquehanna River, and otherwise analyzing how things would float and sink there! It's a lot of reading and assimilating, and I give a lot of credit to those who have cared enough to follow this case for so many years, and for all the hard work people have put into trying to figure out what happened. I hope we have an answer some day.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I wonder about suicide. But where is the body?

I wonder about walkaway, but did RFG get out of Lewisburg?

In some ways those are the same question. A lot of the evidence looks like RFG's disappearance was voluntary, and both suicide and voluntary departure are voluntary acts.

It is hugely unlikely that RFG's body was ever in the river.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If this were true, then I would tend to believe he was involved in some sketchy behavior. Why else wouldn't he just tell law enforcement that he feared for his safety? Or a friend? or his girlfriend? (Or did he and I'm not aware? I feel like I might have missed part of this discussion).

Not that I know of. No one has ever said RFG was worried about his safety and told someone. I might add, why, if he was worried his safety, he didn't leave a note, or something on his computer, e.g. **I'm going to Lewisburg to meet _____ . If something happens, you know who to check.**

So, either was not worried, or he was involved in some "sketchy behavior," that we don't, after 9 years, know anything about.

 

[nittanylioness234]

Here is a story about how fugitive Joseph Miller left his Harrisburg life to start life anew as Roy Eubanks in Texas, living under an alias for 33 years. I guess "walk-away" worked for him...until now.

http://www.pennlive.com/projects/2014/33-years-on-the-run/

Ray Gricar was no fugitive, but could he have also started a new life elsewhere? I don't know what to think.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is a story about how fugitive Joseph Miller left his Harrisburg life to start life anew as Roy Eubanks in Texas, living under an alias for 33 years. I guess "walk-away" worked for him...until now.

http://www.pennlive.com/projects/2014/33-years-on-the-run/

Ray Gricar was no fugitive, but could he have also started a new life elsewhere? I don't know what to think.

RFG was much more experienced and much better educated. He could do that.

 

[Trackergd]

Yes, but look at what the author, Mike Joseph, the veteran political reporter at the CDT said. RFG seemed to be fine discussing Bascom and Madeira. When Arnold was mentioned, his answer became indefinite.

As far as I know, even at that time, Arnold was not hostile to RFG. She isn't now.
I do agree with with both your and MissJ's points the realization of retiring could cause the change. It wouldn't be due to a physical threat, however.

This points to something voluntary, though suicide is a bit higher with this that walkaway.

RBBM

From Centre Daily Times, dated Feb 23, 2012

Page 32 of PSP [Pennsylvania State Police] Incident No. G07-1146135 describes an interview with Karen Arnold, a former Assistant District Attorney of Centre County, wherein she and former District Attorney Ray Gricar had extensive disagreements over a 1998 police investigation regarding the Defendant.

Extensive disagreements sounds just a tad hostile... I'm jus sayin....

 

[Trackergd]

KA investigates child abuse cases and gets the first indications of the Sandusky abuse and gives the information to RG.

KA and RG argue the merits of the case

RG decides not to prosecute Sandusky either because of a lack of credible evidence or fear of PSU backlash.

The riff between KA and RG widens over not prosecuting as KA is passionate about protecting children.

Election time approaches

KA in some manner lets RG know that she will use the information she developed and the failure to Prosecute against him if he decides to run for reelection.

A serious blow to RG and the change in character starts.

Announces he will retire.

RG does not go out to get the signatures needed to run

Vague when questioned about not running and KA is mentioned as KA is the stressor.

Decides to dispose of the laptop with the information KA gave him and starts to figure out how to wipe the drive

Decides at some point that his career is a loss and decides to go to Lewisburg and execute a preplanned disposal of the laptop/drive and exit stage right into a new life elsewhere, hence the meeting with the mystery woman and deception of where he was going. A peaceful and quiet place he is familiar with to spend his last hours in the area.

Unknown party picks RG and the Mini up and drives RG to points unknown and returns the car to the same place a couple of hours later. Unknown person smokes.

Earlier scent trail and scent on car confirms RG was there, but dog cannot tell anyone there is more than one scent.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

RBBM

From Centre Daily Times, dated Feb 23, 2012

Page 32 of PSP [Pennsylvania State Police] Incident No. G07-1146135 describes an interview with Karen Arnold, a former Assistant District Attorney of Centre County, wherein she and former District Attorney Ray Gricar had extensive disagreements over a 1998 police investigation regarding the Defendant.

Extensive disagreements sounds just a tad hostile... I'm jus sayin....

Okay, she did describe him as "a bit rigid" at one point in the 2005 campaign. I still doubt that she would go out of her way to deliberately make RFG look bad.

RFG was her employer for 18 years, and was in the public defender's office prior to that. If they had a terrible relationship, he could have just not reappointed her in 1989, 1993, 1997, or 2001. She could have resigned and gone into private practice. She wasn't a close friend, like Sloane, but she was there for a while.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped, basically including the parts I disagree with:

The riff between KA and RG widens over not prosecuting as KA is passionate about protecting children.

I think she is passionate, but there is no evidence of a rift.

Election time approaches

KA in some manner lets RG know that she will use the information she developed and the failure to Prosecute against him if he decides to run for reelection.

Election approached in 2001, RFG had a primary challenger, and that could weaken him in the general. JKA didn't run.

JKA did not have all the information; she was removed from the case very early on, before the sting.

A serious blow to RG and the change in character starts.

Announces he will retire.

He announced his retirement in 2004; the behavioral change seems to have occurred in March of 2005.

Vague when questioned about not running and KA is mentioned as KA is the stressor.

Decides to dispose of the laptop with the information KA gave him and starts to figure out how to wipe the drive

There were no questions about not running in 2004; they were asked and answered, without any lack of fluidity, in 2004.

He did not have the laptop in 1998 and he asked about getting rid of the data about a year before (2004).

No evidence anyone else was in the Mini, but he could have been picked up in another vehicle.

Even if JKA was elected and did pursue the 1998 Sandusky case, the worst that would happen is that RFG would face public criticism. He was not planning to run for anything nor was he planning to practice law.

While I would concede that the revelation of the 1998 decision not to prosecute Sandusky could be a motivation for something voluntary, I think it would be a weaker reason. Also, there was no guarantee that it would be revealed, or that JKA would win the election.

 

[BigCat]

KA investigates child abuse cases and gets the first indications of the Sandusky abuse and gives the information to RG.

KA and RG argue the merits of the case

RG decides not to prosecute Sandusky either because of a lack of credible evidence or fear of PSU backlash.

The riff between KA and RG widens over not prosecuting as KA is passionate about protecting children.

Election time approaches

KA in some manner lets RG know that she will use the information she developed and the failure to Prosecute against him if he decides to run for reelection.

A serious blow to RG and the change in character starts.

Announces he will retire.

RG does not go out to get the signatures needed to run

Vague when questioned about not running and KA is mentioned as KA is the stressor.

Decides to dispose of the laptop with the information KA gave him and starts to figure out how to wipe the drive

Decides at some point that his career is a loss and decides to go to Lewisburg and execute a preplanned disposal of the laptop/drive and exit stage right into a new life elsewhere, hence the meeting with the mystery woman and deception of where he was going. A peaceful and quiet place he is familiar with to spend his last hours in the area.

Unknown party picks RG and the Mini up and drives RG to points unknown and returns the car to the same place a couple of hours later. Unknown person smokes.

Earlier scent trail and scent on car confirms RG was there, but dog cannot tell anyone there is more than one scent.

Pretty good. I think if you had RFG with knowledge that Sandusky re-offended (or, at the very least, have him hearing rumors), it would make the case stronger for walk away in this scenario. Otherwise, why would he fear repercussions 7 years later over not prosecuting the beloved Sandusky?

 

[Trackergd]

Occasionally I will formulate a theory based on what is known and purposely let J.J. pick holes in to find out what sticks and what does not.

It's good to challenge opinions and explore new concepts.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Occasionally I will formulate a theory based on what is known and purposely let J.J. pick holes in to find out what sticks and what does not.

It's good to challenge opinions and explore new concepts.

And I play Devil's Advocate, including with my own stuff.

Most of it does work. Where I disagree is that any of it happened in 2004 and that JKA was deliberately (that is implied) trying to do this. It depends on what RFG thought JKA's intentions were, not what JKA's intentions really were. She might have assumed that RFG investigated and that there was nothing to it. She might have completely forgotten about it by 2005.

That could have added to RFG's reaction, but, as BigCat noted, unless there is something else, I doubt if it would be the sole cause of some voluntary act of RFG's.

If RFG had done something illegal regarding Sandusky, that would be a good reason for suicide or walkaway. We don't have anything illegal, however. Even off the record, I have not heard a hint of anything illegal.

 

[shadow of my mind]

Not that I know of. No one has ever said RFG was worried about his safety and told someone. I might add, why, if he was worried his safety, he didn't leave a note, or something on his computer, e.g. **I'm going to Lewisburg to meet _____ . If something happens, you know who to check.**

So, either was not worried, or he was involved in some "sketchy behavior," that we don't, after 9 years, know anything about.

BBM

Maybe that is exactly what he did. His work computer showed that he had Goggled a map to Lewisburg. He might not wanted to leave a note that was more specific than that. Figured it would be enough. It was the DA's office and they are big into looking in all of the corners for clues. Just a another way of looking at it.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

BBM

Maybe that is exactly what he did. His work computer showed that he had Goggled a map to Lewisburg. He might not wanted to leave a note that was more specific than that. Figured it would be enough. It was the DA's office and they are big into looking in all of the corners for clues. Just a another way of looking at it.

It is possible it is a message of "where." Sloane thought it was. It isn't a message of "who."

I could understand that if RFG was planning to walk away/commit suicide, he might do that. If he wanted to leave the message, "The Mini is in Lewisburg," that would do it ultimately. There would be easier ways, however, and it would be likely that, at some point, it would be found.

 

[Trackergd]

So I am reduced to thinking the computer had something critical on it that needed disposing of. What that "something" was is still in play.

Or...it's a prop in the vanishing act. If that were the case, I am curious why RG would toss the computer in the river and not leave it minus the drive in the Mini. The hard drive makes sense being tossed.

Perhaps this is why the laptop was tossed in one spot with the assumption it would be found and the drive in another with the assumption that due to it's small size, it would not be. I wonder if RG data destruction searches showed that the RAM would be too difficult to remove and dispose of along with the hard drive, so the entire laptop was tossed.

I also wonder if the laptop belonged to someone else in the DA's office before it was given to RG, and he discovered or knew of something on it.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

So I am reduced to thinking the computer had something critical on it that needed disposing of. What that "something" was is still in play.

Or...it's a prop in the vanishing act. If that were the case, I am curious why RG would toss the computer in the river and not leave it minus the drive in the Mini. The hard drive makes sense being tossed.

Okay assuming walkaway (or suicide):

1. What would the police have done if they found the laptop, minus the drive, in the Mini on 4/16?

2. What would have happened if the police, after getting the laptop on 4/17, had checked it (maybe on 4/18-4/19) and discovered that there was no drive?

Perhaps this is why the laptop was tossed in one spot with the assumption it would be found and the drive in another with the assumption that due to it's small size, it would not be. I wonder if RG data destruction searches showed that the RAM would be too difficult to remove and dispose of along with the hard drive, so the entire laptop was tossed.

I also wonder if the laptop belonged to someone else in the DA's office before it was given to RG, and he discovered or knew of something on it.

These are both good questions, and for once (or twice), I do not have an answer.