PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[SeekingJana]

There is NOTHING that links DA Gricar with being involved in a pedophile ring, period. Investigating one....maybe, but not being involved in one. People who advance this theory are doing nothing but repeating unsubstantiated internet rumors and hearsay from acquaintances who evidently claim to have inside knowledge of the investigation.

:goodpost:
I want to highlight this post. Thank you for what you said before I could come back and post.
I do not, for one second believe, nor do I think anyone posting on this case on WS believes that Mr. Gricar was involved in anything like this. We are better than to accuse a missing man who was working for the public to prosecute criminals of baseless speculation. I do not think any of those rumors came out of WS. There are sickos posting everywhere now on Social Media, but on WS, the missing are treated as victims of crime and we do not victimize the victim.

I wanted to also add that as far as investigating such a crime, usually, the county D.A.'s office prosecutes the accused in a court of law when evidence is sufficient for a trial, but doesn't go looking at potential crimes and possible criminals. The office of the District Attorney is not an investigative source, it is the regional prosecutorial body in the name of the people of that county or district. Also, it usually takes a great deal of sophisticated surveillance ( like the FBI uses) a long time to crack a child sex criminal, be it an individual or a " pedophile ring".

The FBI should probably be the investigative body for what is hinted at in the term " child pedophile ring", I guess is either making and distribution of child sexual images or child sexual abuse by a group, or both. I don't even know what was accused or by whom or WHY.

The why of it defies logic. There is not one iota of evidence to support such an evil accusation against a missing man.
He's not here to defend himself, so we should help defend his good name and reputation.

He's just as likely to have been a person who was :alien3:abducted by a green Martian.

Now, could we get back to worthwhile case discussion as Websleuthers?:websleuther:It may only be my wish, and no one else may think this has merit, but I wish very much that the cadaver dogs recently used in the Barbara Miller suspected homicide could go through Patty and Ray's former residence.

Just so many intangible unknowns in this baffling case. I wish so much that the Sunbury investigator would move to the PSP and get his hands on Ray's case or maybe be called in as a special investigator. ( le sigh).
I am so impressed by the diligence given to Barbara Miller's case in the past few months!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There is NOTHING that links DA Gricar with being involved in a pedophile ring, period. Investigating one....maybe, but not being involved in one. People who advance this theory are doing nothing but repeating unsubstantiated internet rumors and hearsay from acquaintances who evidently claim to have inside knowledge of the investigation.

I don't believe that Gricar was part of one, but that would neither prove nor disprove a ring. I

I am saying that some people involved the Sandusky believe it is possible the was/is a ring involving pedophilia. Normally, I would dismiss such a story as a conspiracy theory (and some are just that). I cannot dismiss the possibly that there was/is a pedophile ring .

We did have a relatively high profile case involving Chris Lee, who was convicted in federal court. This was well after Sandusky's conviction. Any connection with Sandusky? not that I know of. Any connection to RFG? Not that I know of. Lee was a township supervisor, and had run for state house; he was a Democrat and the son of a former governor of Maryland. RFG was a Republican.

It is possibly another piece in the puzzle that is Central Pennsylvania Gothic. It is not a piece in the puzzle that the Gricar disappearance.

I will note that there was/is a federal investigation around the Sandusky case.

 

[SeekingJana]

^^ You're right about there possibly being a pedophile group or child *advertiser censored* group ( they are not always the same, as I understand it) but not involving Mr. Gricar.
I had thought that JS case had FBI involvement, but wasn't sure as I found it too sickening to follow, frankly.I believe that if he had been in any type of group situation, the FBI would have found the others. They are usually very thorough in investigating crimes against children.
When I was working as a registered nurse, I was a witness to something where the FBI was brought in. The amount of questioning, interviewing, asking minute details that I really didn't know the answer to all of it, was incredible. I remember thinking- I don't ever want to be on the wrong side of the FBI's investigations.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

All that I can say about this is that there was/is a investigation that was being conducted by some agency of the federal government and that was being conducted between 11/1/11 and 1/23/12.

It is referenced in this letter (p. 2):

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7XMvBRjdt05WVppU3JBcWF6OGM/edit

That is the sum of my knowledge, both off the record and on, of this investigation.

 

[SeekingJana]

^^^ Regarding the above letter, I'm not sure if the author means targeting J.P. for s crime such as obstruction of justice, for aiding and abetting a felony, for failure to report child sexual abuse, or if the author means " We were targeting him as a 2nd pedophile in the PSU sex abuse case".

Am I not understanding it correctly?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

^^^ Regarding the above letter, I'm not sure if the author means targeting J.P. for s crime such as obstruction of justice, for aiding and abetting a felony, for failure to report child sexual abuse, or if the author means " We were targeting him as a 2nd pedophile in the PSU sex abuse case".

Am I not understanding it correctly?

I have no idea what the investigation is about, what federal government agency or agencies are involved, what they are looking for. The only thing I know is there is/was a federal investigation involving Penn State and Sandusky, that "...Joe Paterno, one of the primary targets
of the investigation, is known to be deceased."

Targets of an investigation is a specific legal term used by the DoJ. Here is good description: http://brianzeiger.com/blog/2016/05/30/difference-federal-target-subject-witness/

It is not a term that DoJ tosses about.

The one thing I've learned about Central Pennsylvania Gothic is that there are many surprises.

 

[SeekingJana]

I really don't think this has anything to do with Mr. Gricar.
In any event, Ray's still missing and we don't know what happened to him.

Prayers for him and all the missing, and prayers especially for Texas. They are starting to announce the death toll as the flood waters recede in the Houston area.

 

[SeekingJana]

CNN.com has an exclusive news article posted today regarding Joe Paterno's "possible" knowledge of the 1998 case and for many years before that..There is a chain of evidence including emails regarding the 1998 case, according to the documents obtained.
The 1998 case was the one which Ray Gricar had knowledge of and directed police to tape Sandusky talking to the boy's mother. Sandusky was not charged with a crime resulting from the 1998 investigation and the D.A.'s declining to go forward with prosecution.

It is widely believed and documented that the boy was described as inconsistent about his showering with Sandusky, and continued to be taken to football games with Sandusky. Also, there was a tape recording of Sandusky conditionally apologizing to the boy's mother.

Also, the CNN report states that Paterno knew of Sandusky's crimes as early as 1976,
Incidentally, Sandusky is requesting a new trial ( don't they all?) in the midst of the new revelations being made public.

There is much more detail on www.cnn.com, with no mention of Mr. Gricar, just the mention of the 1998 case. NOTE- I have attempted 3 times to post this as a news article and CNN turns it into a video every time. The web page on CNN is not only a video ( which I didn't watch) but a comprehensive news report. I do not know how to fix this.
I cannot post the video link as I believe this is against WS TOS, but it's there and easy to find. My apologies. I never read or watch CNN and am unfamiliar with a URL changing from one site to the next! Crazy!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

CNN.com has an exclusive news article posted today regarding Joe Paterno's "possible" knowledge of the 1998 case and for many years before that..There is a chain of evidence including emails regarding the 1998 case, according to the documents obtained.
The 1998 case was the one which Ray Gricar had knowledge of and directed police to tape Sandusky talking to the boy's mother. Sandusky was not charged with a crime resulting from the 1998 investigation and the D.A.'s declining to go forward with prosecution.

This is basically old news. The question was if Paterno was told, in 1998, that the police (RFG and JL at DPW) were investigating Sandusky. Paterno denied it in grand jury. 2012 there were emails indicating Paterno being briefed on the investigate, by the then Athletic Director Tim Curry.

Curley, in a plea bargain testified against the former PSU president. On the stand, Curry said that Paterno knew about the 1998 investigation, in 1998.

In 2001, McQueary saw Sandusky molesting a child in the shower in the facility. He reported it to Paterno, who said that this was the was "the second complaint of this nature" that he had received. The first was 1998, and 2001 was the second. This isn't really anything new, because Curry already testified that he, Curley, told Paterno in 1998.

It is widely believed and documented that the boy was described as inconsistent about his showering with Sandusky, and continued to be taken to football games with Sandusky. Also, there was a tape recording of Sandusky conditionally apologizing to the boy's mother.

I know of no one who claims that at this point. The victim, Victim 6, and the detective that handled the case both testified. IIRC, Victim 6 made one stop to pick up tickets, and did not go into the house. Also, while the victim's mother did confront Sandusky, but it was not taped (I think that is illegal in PA without a warrant).

The transcript Victim 6 band Schreffler, the detective, are available at the Centre C

There was another victim from 1998 that was part of the investigation, B.K. He was overseas, in the armed forces, for the grand jury and could not testify. This might have been B. K.

Also, the CNN report states that Paterno knew of Sandusky's crimes as early as 1976,
Incidentally, Sandusky is requesting a new trial ( don't they all?) in the midst of the new revelations being made public.

This is even older news. PSU settled with the victims, I think dating back to 1970-71. I think the one from 1976 indicated that the boy walked up to Paterno and said that Sandusky had anally penetrated
his in a shower. Paterno supposedly said, "Don't bother me with that," and walked away.

Very old news on Sandusky; I think he asked for a new trial in 2013 or 2014.

We als

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

CNN.com has an exclusive news article posted today regarding Joe Paterno's "possible" knowledge of the 1998 case and for many years before that..There is a chain of evidence including emails regarding the 1998 case, according to the documents obtained.
The 1998 case was the one which Ray Gricar had knowledge of and directed police to tape Sandusky talking to the boy's mother. Sandusky was not charged with a crime resulting from the 1998 investigation and the D.A.'s declining to go forward with prosecution.

This is basically old news. The question was if Paterno was told, in 1998, that the police (RFG and JL at DPW) were investigating Sandusky. Paterno denied it in grand jury. 2012 there were emails indicating Paterno being briefed on the investigate, by the then Athletic Director Tim Curry.

Curley, in a plea bargain testified against the former PSU president. On the stand, Curry said that Paterno knew about the 1998 investigation, in 1998.

In 2001, McQueary saw Sandusky molesting a child in the shower in the facility. He reported it to Paterno, who said that this was the was "the second complaint of this nature" that he had received. The first was 1998, and 2001 was the second. This isn't really anything new, because Curley already testified that he, Curley, told Paterno in 1998.

It is widely believed and documented that the boy was described as inconsistent about his showering with Sandusky, and continued to be taken to football games with Sandusky. Also, there was a tape recording of Sandusky conditionally apologizing to the boy's mother.

I know of no one who claims that at this point. The victim, Victim 6, and the detective that handled the case both testified. IIRC, Victim 6 made one stop to pick up tickets, and did not go into the house. Also, while the victim's mother did confront Sandusky, but it was not taped (I think that is illegal in PA without a warrant).

The transcript Victim 6 band Schreffler, the detective, are available at the Centre County website.

There was another victim from 1998 that was part of the investigation, B.K. He was overseas, in the armed forces, for the grand jury and could not testify. This might have been B. K.

Also, the CNN report states that Paterno knew of Sandusky's crimes as early as 1976,
Incidentally, Sandusky is requesting a new trial ( don't they all?) in the midst of the new revelations being made public.

This is even older news. PSU settled with the victims, I think dating back to 1970-71. I think the one from 1976 indicated that the boy walked up to Paterno and said that Sandusky had anally penetrated
his in a shower. Paterno supposedly said, "Don't bother me with that," and walked away.

Very old news on Sandusky; I think he asked for a new trial in 2013 or 2014.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

We do have a good Penn State section on this site.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?495-Jerry-Sandusky-Cover-Up-at-Penn-State

 

[SeekingJana]

It definitely has been said that one of the boys in the late 90's kept going to football games with Sandusky, and his mother stopped her complaint against Sandusky. I don't recall if it was B.K. or Victim 6 but I believe what you are saying.

So, why did CNN pull all this together and claim it's new?
It seemed to me that they were saying the existence of the email was new, but you aren't backing that up, right?

I don't care what happens to Sandusky other than staying in prison, I'm not sad that Paterno died, and I have absolutely no interest in PSU.

Sorry I posted what I thought was news regarding the email, which was said to have been cc'd to several people. I do not know who they are, except maybe more of those rotten coaches.
I should have known that CNN was exaggerating or flat out manufacturing a story as their " exclusive" , but since I didn't, I'll leave the posting of any media to you again and bow out of this booming discussion thread.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

It definitely has been said that one of the boys in the late 90's kept going to football games with Sandusky, and his mother stopped her complaint against Sandusky. I don't recall if it was B.K. or Victim 6 but I believe what you are saying.

There were additional victims from that period that no one in law enforcement knew about.

So, why did CNN pull all this together and claim it's new?
It seemed to me that they were saying the existence of the email was new, but you aren't backing that up, right?

You would have to ask CNN.

In 2012, we had emails that indicated there was communication. 5/8/98, in an email to Schultz (v.p. who oversaw the University Police) said "I touched base with the coach. Keep us posted."

5/13/86, same parties, "Anything new is this department? Coach is anxious to know where it stands."

Curley asked for updates on 5/19/98 and 5/30/09. On 6/9/98, Schultz reports that the investigation is over.

At the Spanier trial, Curley testified that he did give Paterno updates, as indicated by the e-mail.

Now we have McQueary saying that Paterno mention a second incident in 2001, when McQueary reported Sandusky. At that point, neither LE nor McQueary knew about the 1998 incident. He was confirming something that was already known.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I am posting this because it is in part of the Susquehanna where RFG would have been, had his body ever been the river. http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/09/delaware_fisherman_dies_after.html#incart_river_home_pop

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I have been rereading some old threads.

The only foul play that makes any sense is that RFG met "mystery woman" for a clandestine meeting, and something happened. Every other foul play theory, just doesn't make sense.

 

[Cherry]

I still think about Mr. Ray Gricar and I wish his case was in the news still. I felt that he knew much about the Sandusky case. Maybe he thought he would also be dragged through the mud and lose everything; like others now obviously have. His body has not been found. His drive was toast. I think he split. MHO

 

[Cherry]

Articles old and new:
https://www.google.com/search?q=att...rome..69i57.5073j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[Cherry]

Maybe le needs to take a 10th look at the antique shop he parked his mini at that fateful day.
It's possible this has nothing to do w Sandusky's. His phone was inside the Mini; he loved antiquing. Is it possible that Ray Gricar was inside that shop and the owners were the last to see him alive? Strip this case down to the bare bones; I'd be all over that shop locale and all who run it.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

5/13/86, same parties, "Anything new is this department? Coach is anxious to know where it stands."

Curley asked for updates on 5/19/98 and 5/30/09. On 6/9/98, Schultz reports that the investigation is over.

That date should be 5/13/98.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Maybe le needs to take a 10th look at the antique shop he parked his mini at that fateful day.
It's possible this has nothing to do w Sandusky's. His phone was inside the Mini; he loved antiquing. Is it possible that Ray Gricar was inside that shop and the owners were the last to see him alive? Strip this case down to the bare bones; I'd be all over that shop locale and all who run it.

It is very possible that this was not tied in any way to Sandusky. Nothing on his home or office computer was related to Sandusky.

The police, press, and plain citizens were all over the Street of Shops.

We have a dog expert, Trackergd, who comments on this. I'd like ask him a question about that cadaver dogs.