PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[msrp2017]

This weekend, my wife and I binge watched videos on Youtube including Dateline and other local newscasts that have covered the story over the year. I remember the day it was announced he was missing and this story has never left my heart

 

[Corpuschick]

I still think about this case, and Ray, too. As a native State Collegian, it has always bothered me. I still am not 100% convinced of anything, thinking the most likely scenario is that he either left with someone who killed him far away from the area or he left on his own and disappeared.

 

[SuzDuJour]

I think of him and of Jonathan Luna at the same time...

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think of him and of Jonathan Luna at the same time...

I hate to say this, but I think Luna was an unintentional suicide.

Part of the reason that was not a greater push to solve the case was that there were some negative things about Luna would come out.

 

[SuzDuJour]

Luna lived near me in Columbia, MD...it always was odd to me that his wife would never say anything about his case.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Luna lived near me in Columbia, MD...it always was odd to me that his wife would never say anything about his case.

Luna was having trouble at work, but the US Attorney in charge of the office claimed he wasn't. He finally got called on by an employee that was leaving. I suspect that they are covering up a lot, to "protect" his reputation.

 

[SeekingJana]

Gricar case legal documents
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7_atAFvowRhOF9uTzgtNTFCYkk/view

This includes the financial report, Lara's petition for legal declaration of death, why she said she didn't appear in court, and a good and accurate case summary by Amos Goodall, attorney for Petitioner Lara Gricar.

I learned or, more correctly, was reminded of a few facts which have been discussed with varying answers over the years.

1) Patty Fornicola is said to have assisted Lara Gricar in the preparation for her Petition for declaration of legal death. Her mother, Barbara, who was photographed at the first press conference, thus, has or had a publicly known interest in Ray's disappearance, did not have any input to the documentation of the case as we know it.

2) Unless the report contains an omission, there is a statement which relates that there were extensive ground, air, and underwater searches for Ray Gricar.
This part states that on 5/5/05, a cadaver dog was brought to Lewisburg and there were no findings.
There is no mention of a scent dog other than a cadaver dog, which is very different, being used at the location of the Mini Cooper.

3) Ray Gricar, a district attorney, didn't have a will. He died intestate, with only a small amount of cash in the one local bank account sourced for the petition..We know there was a pension 9 months away, and partial benefits, at least, were inherited by his next of kin, Lara Gricar.
He owned 0 assets, and also had a 0 balance on expenses owed. ( The house and the Mini Cooper were in Patty's name only, Most of us have known this for years, but it seems there are new case posters from time to time.)

4) Regarding the subject of finances, several people were paid in early May 2005.
I wonder why Steve Sloane received $1000 cash.

The case facts which are public info point to very long thought out and well planned walkaway for me. I fully believe there were significant financial assets deposited outside the USA over a long period of time, not required to be reported until the banking laws changed after 2001. That's not to say that he didn't meet with foul play before he reached his intended destination and is an UID far away from PA ( thus no connection has been made to his case) nor that he is still alive now because of natural aging process.

 

[SeekingJana]

This article, from a Pittsburgh newspaper, is one of the only originally quoted articles which are still active. The witness from Southfield, MI, a retired police officer who was a composite sketch artist, was deemed by investigators on the Gricar case to be a credible witness. This sighting has their supposition of being valid.

http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/05177/528156-85.stm

 

[J. J. in Phila]

First, thank you for posting the package

A couple of things in here are a bit off:

Respectfully snipped:

2) Unless the report contains an omission, there is a statement which relates that there were extensive ground, air, and underwater searches for Ray Gricar.
This part states that on 5/5/05, a cadaver dog was brought to Lewisburg and there were no findings.
There is no mention of a scent dog other than a cadaver dog, which is very different, being used at the location of the Mini Cooper.

This is a very broad description of the search. There are some inaccuracies. It lists RFG being DA in 1984; he was first elected in 1985 and sworn in to office in 1986. That cadaver dog date might be wrong.

3) Ray Gricar, a district attorney, didn't have a will. He died intestate, with only a small amount of cash in the one local bank account sourced for the petition..We know there was a pension 9 months away, and partial benefits, at least, were inherited by his next of kin, Lara Gricar.
He owned 0 assets, and also had a 0 balance on expenses owed. ( The house and the Mini Cooper were in Patty's name only, Most of us have known this for years, but it seems there are new case posters from time to time.)

Several things of note regarding this.

1. We don't know if Gricar had a will or not. If the estate was less than $25,000, a will would need to be probated (it is now $50 K). We can say, at least, that his estate was less than $25,000.

2. Unless RFG made his estate beneficiaries, things like his pension or live insurance (and similar products). RFG could have made LAG and/or PEF beneficiaries and that would not show in the estate.

3. It is known that LAG was on his accounts, so legally half the money was hers, even if she didn't put a penny into the accounts. For example, if RFG had a $40,000 in a CD and had LAG's name on it, for estate purposes, it was $20,000. So, in theory, RFG could have had just under $50,000, and only half of that would be included in his estate.

4. There were a number of legitimate expenses that would have come out of the estate after RFG disappeared. There were at least three major legal matters that came up.

A. The reward had to be set up. The attorney who did it was Amos Goodall and actually wrote an article about the complexity.

B. LAG had to be appointed conservator (I'm not sure if that is the correct term).

C. There was the process of declaring RFG dead.

In addition to legal expenses, I'm sure that there were other legitimate expenses. LAG's travel would be a legitimate expense, as would telephone calls. That would all come out of RFG's share.

The point is that, on 4/15/05 RFG was in better financial shape than these documents suggest. I've heard between $80 K and just over $100 K, half of which was in LAG's name.

4) Regarding the subject of finances, several people were paid in early May 2005.
I wonder why Steve Sloane received $1000 cash.

This deals with the reward; Sloane contributed $1000. The way it was set up, that $1000 was donated to a women's shelter, along with the rest of the reward money.

I'm glad that the raw data is available, but it should be looked at in context. I will note that the RFG's Financial Disclosure Statements are in my photo album and opened to all, as far as I know.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This article, from a Pittsburgh newspaper, is one of the only originally quoted articles which are still active. The witness from Southfield, MI, a retired police officer who was a composite sketch artist, was deemed by investigators on the Gricar case to be a credible witness. This sighting has their supposition of being valid.

http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/05177/528156-85.stm

Southfield is either the key to solving this mystery, or it is another dead end.

In other words, either the witnesses saw RFG, or it was a misidentification; even police can misidentify people. I still give it a 50/50 shot.

If RFG walked away, there are logical reasons for him being there, and on that day.

 

[SeekingJana]

First, thank you for posting the package

A couple of things in here are a bit off:

Respectfully snipped:



This is a very broad description of the search. There are some inaccuracies. It lists RFG being DA in 1984; he was first elected in 1985 and sworn in to office in 1986. That cadaver dog date might be wrong.



Several things of note regarding this.

1. We don't know if Gricar had a will or not. If the estate was less than $25,000, a will would need to be probated (it is now $50 K). We can say, at least, that his estate was less than $25,000.

2. Unless RFG made his estate beneficiaries, things like his pension or live insurance (and similar products). RFG could have made LAG and/or PEF beneficiaries and that would not show in the estate.

3. It is known that LAG was on his accounts, so legally half the money was hers, even if she didn't put a penny into the accounts. For example, if RFG had a $40,000 in a CD and had LAG's name on it, for estate purposes, it was $20,000. So, in theory, RFG could have had just under $50,000, and only half of that would be included in his estate.

4. There were a number of legitimate expenses that would have come out of the estate after RFG disappeared. There were at least three major legal matters that came up.

A. The reward had to be set up. The attorney who did it was Amos Goodall and actually wrote an article about the complexity.

B. LAG had to be appointed conservator (I'm not sure if that is the correct term).

C. There was the process of declaring RFG dead.

In addition to legal expenses, I'm sure that there were other legitimate expenses. LAG's travel would be a legitimate expense, as would telephone calls. That would all come out of RFG's share.

The point is that, on 4/15/05 RFG was in better financial shape than these documents suggest. I've heard between $80 K and just over $100 K, half of which was in LAG's name.



This deals with the reward; Sloane contributed $1000. The way it was set up, that $1000 was donated to a women's shelter, along with the rest of the reward money.

I'm glad that the raw data is available, but it should be looked at in context. I will note that the RFG's Financial Disclosure Statements are in my photo album and opened to all, as far as I know.

1) A respected local attorney represented Lara's interests. Also, as an attorney, he was obliged to set forth the case FACTS. If he says Ray Gricar left no will, then I'm going to believe him.

2) I concede that the omission of the report regarding the tracking dog which we've accepted as case fact, not rumor, might be an oversight. However, the report from the tracking dog search was not reported as " negative".
This leads me to believe that there was a separate search of the grounds with a cadaver dog, after the initial searches were completed by LE. Those searches have details and dates, as does the cadaver dog search. I have always questioned why a cadaver dog was not brought in, and IMO, this answers my question. There WAS one. May 5, 2005.
Once again, I'm going with what Amos Goodall presented as factual and swore to the validity in court.

 

[SeekingJana]

Southfield is either the key to solving this mystery, or it is another dead end.

In other words, either the witnesses saw RFG, or it was a misidentification; even police can misidentify people. I still give it a 50/50 shot.

If RFG walked away, there are logical reasons for him being there, and on that day.

1) Regarding the Southfield sighting, you've ALWAYS held on to that one sighting as being " important" and you have always said it was a valid sighting until I've just cited a news source with the man's words, and the police's reasoning for believing him.
You should not suddenly be " might be something or might be nothing" just because someone else posted the news article from June 2005.

2) Regarding the financial background work that you and the other poster did, as far as I know, it's never been posted here for all to see. Why is that? It is disingenuous to say " I have much more information" and then not present it to all who read/ post here.

Post it, or stop mentioning it, because a financial balance sheet has gravitas.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

1) A respected local attorney represented Lara's interests. Also, as an attorney, he was obliged to set forth the case FACTS. If he says Ray Gricar left no will, then I'm going to believe him.

There could have been one, but it was improperly executed. That does happen even with an attorney preparing one.

2) I concede that the omission of the report regarding the tracking dog which we've accepted as case fact, not rumor, might be an oversight. However, the report from the tracking dog search was not reported as " negative".
This leads me to believe that there was a separate search of the grounds with a cadaver dog, after the initial searches were completed by LE. Those searches have details and dates, as does the cadaver dog search. I have always questioned why a cadaver dog was not brought in, and IMO, this answers my question. There WAS one. May 5, 2005.
Once again, I'm going with what Amos Goodall presented as factual and swore to the validity in court.

There was a search with a cadaver dog on either Thursday or Friday of the week 4/18. It was previously mention, though with the level of detail we discuss around here, it is easily missed.

I did want to add to ad several things about the river.

First, there was a dive team that was used (along with a cadaver dog).

The divers didn't check the north side of the bridge and were looking primarily for a body. They concentrated on the downstream south side. There is a walkway on the south side, where it was more likely that someone could have jumped or tossed something.

This was mentioned on a prior thread, but in 2009, two children drowned in the Susquehanna. They went into the water about 200 yards south of the bridge. Even though the water was high, their bodies were found about 200 yards downstream (south) of where they were last seen playing, and they were found within 36 hours. http://www.standard-journal.com/news/article_6168f874-b393-5241-a51e-5f1e1243a03e.html

Note that this is different than the bloodhound brought in on 4/17/05 that traced RFG's scent in the parking lot.

The 5/5 cadaver dog might have been the one used in connection with the psychic, Carla Barron. I'll have to check.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

1) Regarding the Southfield sighting, you've ALWAYS held on to that one sighting as being " important" and you have always said it was a valid sighting until I've just cited a news source with the man's words, and the police's reasoning for believing him.
You should not suddenly be " might be something or might be nothing" just because someone else posted the news article from June 2005.

2) Regarding the financial background work that you and the other poster did, as far as I know, it's never been posted here for all to see. Why is that? It is disingenuous to say " I have much more information" and then not present it to all who read/ post here.

Post it, or stop mentioning it, because a financial balance sheet has gravitas.

I have always said that Southfield was a 50/50 shot. The police have called it "credible." As noted, one of the witnesses was a retired police officer who was a composite sketch artist. At this point it means that the witnesses are credible and that the sighting cannot be matched up with someone else.

In some cases, the police can say "X who matched RFG's description, was there, and we are pretty sure the witness saw X." In one case, a person thought to be RFG, in another Michigan sighting, turned out to be a local dentist.

All that said, if RFG was planning to leave the country, the Michigan sighting makes sense. Close to a consulate of a country in the area where he had family, and had visited. It was near the Canadian border. It was on a heavy travel day, the Friday of a Memorial Day weekend. All of that still does not prove it was RFG.

At least some of the financial stuff has either been posted or at least discussed. I did not post it, in toto, because of the bulk. The REV 1500 was posted, because I remember redacting Goodall's telephone number.

RFG Financial Disclosure Statements, for 2004 and 2005, that are not part of these documents are in an album under my member page.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

That 5/5 cadaver dog seems to be related to the psychic, Clara Baron. The dogs were not necessarily anyplace in the area where he was last seen. http://www.centredaily.com/news/special-reports/article42810849.html

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I thought I'd add this.

It was known, in 2005, that depression could be genetic. It was strongly suspected, but not confirmed, in 2005, that suicidal could be genetic. It is known that RFG's brother, Roy Gricar, was bipolar and that his death was ruled a suicide.

In 2011, it was confirmed that the was a genetic link to suicide: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111007113941.htm

That is a minor point for suicide, but not everyone that has this gene commits suicide, and people without this gene commit suicide.

 

[SeekingJana]

That 5/5 cadaver dog seems to be related to the psychic, Clara Baron. The dogs were not necessarily anyplace in the area where he was last seen. http://www.centredaily.com/news/special-reports/article42810849.html

Thanks for the clarification, J.J.
Bumping up for Ray!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I have always said that Southfield was a 50/50 shot. The police have called it "credible." As noted, one of the witnesses was a retired police officer who was a composite sketch artist. At this point it means that the witnesses are credible and that the sighting cannot be matched up with someone else.

I was thinking a bit about the Southfield sighting. It was on the Friday of the Memorial Day weekend of 2005.

Here would be a possibility:

A helper either bought or rented a car and turned it over to RFG. He would have reimbursed the helper.

In either case, RFG would not be able to rid himself of the car easily. He couldn't sell because it would not have been in his name, if the helper bought. He might have had a similar problem returning a rental car. The helper would have had to pick up the car and either sell it, or return it to the rental company.

If there is a helper, it is likely someone close to RFG; I've referred to that group as the "inner circle." Family, former wives or girlfriends, close male friends, co-workers would all be in that inner circle. If one of them was in the Detroit area that weekend, that could break the case.

 

[SeekingJana]

I was thinking a bit about the Southfield sighting. It was on the Friday of the Memorial Day weekend of 2005.

Here would be a possibility:

A helper either bought or rented a car and turned it over to RFG. He would have reimbursed the helper.

In either case, RFG would not be able to rid himself of the car easily. He couldn't sell because it would not have been in his name, if the helper bought. He might have had a similar problem returning a rental car. The helper would have had to pick up the car and either sell it, or return it to the rental company.

If there is a helper, it is likely someone close to RFG; I've referred to that group as the "inner circle." Family, former wives or girlfriends, close male friends, co-workers would all be in that inner circle. If one of them was in the Detroit area that weekend, that could break the case.

Agree with you. Also, the person seen or believed to be with Ray in the SOS in Lewisburg might not necessarily be the same person who drove with him out of state.
I have one person in mind who likely had a good measure of friendship left over from a serious relationship, and also had another person's interests in the forefront in wanting to see Ray get away safely

I do not know who in his inner circle had ironclad alibis for the weekend he went missing and who might not have been questioned that deeply, but should be, ( IMO).
You likely know who I am referring to.. a very capable and intelligent woman who seems to be the type of person who likely never backed down from any of her intended and well thought out actions.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Agree with you. Also, the person seen or believed to be with Ray in the SOS in Lewisburg might not necessarily be the same person who drove with him out of state.
I have one person in mind who likely had a good measure of friendship left over from a serious relationship, and also had another person's interests in the forefront in wanting to see Ray get away safely

I do not know who in his inner circle had ironclad alibis for the weekend he went missing and who might not have been questioned that deeply, but should be, ( IMO).
You likely know who I am referring to.. a very capable and intelligent woman who seems to be the type of person who likely never backed down from any of her intended and well thought out actions.

As far as I know, the only people that really were intensely question were PEF and LAG; those were the only two polygraphed. SPS was interviewed to a lesser extent.