PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

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I don't know, of course, but I'm so glad you've brought this up! The direct route from Lewisburg to Cleveland is amazing for me to see, since I'm not at all familiar with that part of the country.
Maybe him mentioning Mel Wiley ( from OH, close to Cleveland) to the point that it was remembered after he disappeared was a hint? Wiley's is also an unsolved disappearance, from close to RFG's home state area...
 
Respectfully Snipped.

Hmmmm

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Route 80 directly from Lewisburg to Cleveland.

Goodness, it appears it is not a big deal to get a flight from Cleveland, OH to Ljubljana, Slovenia...on at least four airlines.

Have we been looking in the wrong direction?

You could say the same thing about Pittsburgh, New York City, Philadelphia, and Baltimore and Washington, DC. They are all closer than Cleveland, all have international airports, and DC and NY had Slovenian diplomatic posts in 2005.

This takes me back to my manta question. How did Ray Gricar get out of Lewisburg?

We know that he didn't rent a car under his own name. We know that the only mass transit out of Lewisburg was the bus.
 
Well, we can assume he did not sprout wings and fly or float down river on a raft. Most likely did not hop one of the freight trains that pass through town or use a hot air balloon. That leaves us with a car or he never left. I had a horrible thought last evening. I never looked close to see if the SOS (being an old mill) had any wells, pits or other spots a body could be hidden. About as much a possibility as leaving in the trunk of a car.
 
Hello all. Long time listener, first time caller. I actually registered on this site because this case fascinates me. I am pretty local to the area, being about an hour outside State College. I am not sure how but I missed this story back when it was fresh so it must have been one of the times I was living out of the area. Anyway, I wanted to throw out some of the things I have been thinking. Hopefully it hasn't been covered before as I have only had time to read through the last thread previous to this one.

1. He was smart enough to research how to destroy a laptop/hard drive but left the software box and search history behind? Also, purposely disposing of both things in the same area of the same river knowing it would most likely be found? My thoughts for this - either he was planning suicide, and knowing how hard it is on family - having been through it himself, wanted to misdirect to leave hope behind. Or this was all something for the police to focus on that was simply a diversion tactic. I lean towards the later. With the suicide theory I keep coming back to no body ever being found. I would think it would be pretty difficult to hide yourself that well that nothing is ever found.

2. We know that he had contact with someone in Lewisburg because of the smoke smell and cig ash. Whether it was this mystery woman or not is hard to say but someone was there to assist with his leaving. Which is more likely? Someone helping him in suicide or someone helping him disappear?

Anyway, those are just some of the thoughts I had while reading up on this. Hope you all don't mind that I jumped into the discussion.
 
Well, we can assume he did not sprout wings and fly or float down river on a raft. Most likely did not hop one of the freight trains that pass through town or use a hot air balloon. That leaves us with a car or he never left. I had a horrible thought last evening. I never looked close to see if the SOS (being an old mill) had any wells, pits or other spots a body could be hidden. About as much a possibility as leaving in the trunk of a car.

Well, it has now been reported by multiple former Kensington Palace employees that Princess Diana hid men in her car boot. Hasnet Khan was the main one and he's a LARGE man. Of course, it likely was a short drive from his hospital to her apartment in KP.
I would not want to be in the trunk of a car for very long because of discomfort and the likely exhaust risks. Remember, I am just a few months older than Gricar was when he disappeared. Could I crawl into a trunk and hide myself if necessary? YES, and for as long as necessary body functions would allow. I would not, horever, want to climb out of said trunk in the middle of the day in, oh, say, metro Pittsburgh, or Cleveland. I might need some help stretching back out when we reached the destination, but otherwise, yes.

The words " left Lewisburg" - I think we need to focus on what we mean by this. Do we mean
1) Drove 40 miles away in the opposite direction from Bellefonte and made the next leg of a long journey in a car that was waiting for him, likely with a helper driver?
2) Left Lewisburg, didn't slow down or stop until he got to his port city ( using port city as a metaphor as to his point of departure from the US) in a car rented for him by someone else?
3) Left Lewisburg alone in a dropped off car by the helper for some place he had friends or a friend who helped him in the next leg of his journey? If so, I think we need to qualify what we thing happened at that point in time, as well.
Is there a 4) or 5)?

Could he have purchased his own car in cash ( not a new car, don't go nuts about the money OK?) wearing a disguise or just sunglasses a few days earlier, left it waiting in the parking lot of the SOS and hopped from his Mini to the other car parked next to it? He didn't own a car. Could the lack of car ownership have been a clue? ( We know it wasn't for protection of assets in case he was sued. RME)
Someone at the Centre County Courthouse says " He is the D.A. but doesn't even own a car. Drives a car with his girlfriend's mashup name on it, y'all". Ray Gricar says " Oh, yes, I do own a car, you just never saw it, Miss Smarty Pants". :)


There's another possibility. Just because RFG was seen with one woman in the SOS doesn't mean there couldn't have been 2 people of driving age to help him. Two cars taken to Lewisburg by 2 helpers working together, one car left with Mr. Gricar, one used by the two helpers who then left Lewisburg together.
I, personally, wouldn't involve 2 other people, but since we don't know who one person is, much less 2, we can't judge whether he used excellent judgment because of the relationships to the other person or people or not.

Or one helper who left Lewisburg and went with RFG wherever it is that he went.

We have to account for the helper's own transportation needs somehow. Because she ( or he or they) is/ are unknown to us, maybe she flew out of the nearest airport. My old fictional buddy Travis McGee used to do that kind of transportation drop fairly often. I am fairly sure Ray would have read at least some of the John D. MacDonald modern classic works.

Or maybe he was smart enough not to need ideas from best- selling literature.:)
 
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Well, we can assume he did not sprout wings and fly or float down river on a raft. Most likely did not hop one of the freight trains that pass through town or use a hot air balloon. That leaves us with a car or he never left. I had a horrible thought last evening. I never looked close to see if the SOS (being an old mill) had any wells, pits or other spots a body could be hidden. About as much a possibility as leaving in the trunk of a car.

Or buried in someone's basement, or chained up in someone's basement, or being hidden by someone in a secret room. In theory, possible, but hugely unlikely. Another possibility would be to hitchhike, but,with the immediate publicity, it is likely that the driver would remember. That would also be hugely unlikely.

RFG could have acquired a car several ways:

1. RFG bought a used car, paying cash (under $10 K), and buying it under his own name. In the spring of 2005, there delays at PennDOT for processes registration; there had been a fire where they did the processing, which slowed everything down. Unless LE checked in August or September 2005, it would not have been in the system.

(I bought a car in PA about a week prior to RFG's disappearance and had the dealer do the title transfer on that day. I ended up having to go to AAA to get it processed in time, in order to meet the deadline, which I think was 90 days. My paperwork was fine; they just didn't get to it.)

2. RFG had a helper buy a car, but it in the helper's name, and used that; he would reimburse the helper, either before leaving or after. He then, sometime later, would meet up with the helper, who could then dispose of the car.

3. RFG had a helper rent a car, on the helper's credit card. As above, he then would meet up with the helper, who would return the car to the rental company. So far as the rental company was concerned, the helper rented the car. RFG could reimburse the helper.

I would note that the Fenton/Grine sighting (on either 4/14 or 4/15/05), and the Southfield sighting would be consistent with #2 and #3.
 
Welcome. Happy you did jump in.

Hello all. Long time listener, first time caller. I actually registered on this site because this case fascinates me. I am pretty local to the area, being about an hour outside State College. I am not sure how but I missed this story back when it was fresh so it must have been one of the times I was living out of the area. Anyway, I wanted to throw out some of the things I have been thinking. Hopefully it hasn't been covered before as I have only had time to read through the last thread previous to this one.

1. He was smart enough to research how to destroy a laptop/hard drive but left the software box and search history behind? Also, purposely disposing of both things in the same area of the same river knowing it would most likely be found? My thoughts for this - either he was planning suicide, and knowing how hard it is on family - having been through it himself, wanted to misdirect to leave hope behind. Or this was all something for the police to focus on that was simply a diversion tactic. I lean towards the later. With the suicide theory I keep coming back to no body ever being found. I would think it would be pretty difficult to hide yourself that well that nothing is ever found.

2. We know that he had contact with someone in Lewisburg because of the smoke smell and cig ash. Whether it was this mystery woman or not is hard to say but someone was there to assist with his leaving. Which is more likely? Someone helping him in suicide or someone helping him disappear?

Anyway, those are just some of the thoughts I had while reading up on this. Hope you all don't mind that I jumped into the discussion.

I am not certain about the search history; it was only discovered with the PSP review in 2006. The software was purchased in 2004. He had also talked to people, in 2004, about cleaning the laptop. One of the people was a defense attorney. I wish I could publicly shed more light on who that was than I'm doing now.

These next two things are me playing Devil's Advocate:

It is possible that RFG wanted to get rid of the data on the laptop, but that was incidental to the reason for the trip and is unrelated to his disappearance.

The cigarette ash/smoke could have been unrelated. The smoker stopped, asked RFG a question through the passenger side window, exhaled, and dropped a fragment of ash. The window was up and the Mini was locked, so it is unlikely that the ash/smoke was from someone attempting to force RFG from the car.
 
I have been an IT tech for 20+ years so I guess the thing that strikes me most about the laptop is the disposal of it. Most times typical erase/cleaner software would not be enough to beat pro forensics techniques. That being said, there are many ways to do physical damage, equal or better than river tossing, that would look like an accident. I guess that part feels deliberate to me. As to the ash, I guess it would depend on the size/type of ash. I am a smoker also so pretty familiar with ash all over my car and the smell. Is there detailed information available about it or was it just casually noted? Also, did they collect any cigarette butts from area around the car?
 
Well, we can assume he did not sprout wings and fly or float down river on a raft. Most likely did not hop one of the freight trains that pass through town or use a hot air balloon. That leaves us with a car or he never left. I had a horrible thought last evening. I never looked close to see if the SOS (being an old mill) had any wells, pits or other spots a body could be hidden. About as much a possibility as leaving in the trunk of a car.

To discuss the possibility of foul play, it is possible that RFG left with someone, voluntarily, and them something happened. Being forced into another car is very unlikely.

I do not know of any wells in the immediate area of the SoS. I think we have discussed the possibility of of the body being dumped in the Montandon wetland area, which is not far.

Having grown up in small town Central PA, many older houses had wells or cisterns; that is where the people got their water prior to water mains being installed. They would use a hand pump to draw water.

They are now disused. Some have been filled in completely, but others are "capped" with a cement plug. The plugs I've seen have been about a yard in diameter, probably close to a yard deep, and weighing a few 100 pounds. I'm sure that there are capped wells like this in Lewisburg.

That said, it would be very difficult for someone in Lewisburg, without a contractor, to remove a plug, put a body in the disused well, and recap it, without your next door neighbors (and possibly the code enforcement officer) knowing what was going on.

In a rural area, it would be very possible to uncap and recap a well.

Certainly in a house in Lewisburg, it would be possible to bury a body in an unfinished basement, or even keep a body in an airtight container.
 
I have been an IT tech for 20+ years so I guess the thing that strikes me most about the laptop is the disposal of it. Most times typical erase/cleaner software would not be enough to beat pro forensics techniques. That being said, there are many ways to do physical damage, equal or better than river tossing, that would look like an accident. I guess that part feels deliberate to me. As to the ash, I guess it would depend on the size/type of ash. I am a smoker also so pretty familiar with ash all over my car and the smell. Is there detailed information available about it or was it just casually noted? Also, did they collect any cigarette butts from area around the car?

The did collect butts from the area, and got DNA, which didn't match any criminal DNA samples.

The ash was described as a fragment and was on the passenger side floor.

The laptop belonged to the county, so RFG would have to return it. If he something personal, embarrassing, or confidential, but job related, he might not have to take any chance on it being recovered.

If RFG was not planning to come back (walk away or suicide), it destruction of the date would be related. It is also impossible for a killer (K) to have known what was on the laptop, if he wanted to get "secret" date. It would also impossible for K to destroy the laptop in order to destroy what was on it. K would have no idea if RFG had copies of whatever that information was.

There is, however, the possibility that RFG was planning to destroy the laptop, but was planning to return to his job. He would need to explain the disappearance of the laptop.

Assume that RFG was planning to come back and the laptop is not related to his disappearance. He removes the drive, tosses it into the river. He throws the laptop, sans drive, from the bridge. Then, in accordance with his plans, he eventually returns to Bellefonte.

That Monday or Tuesday, tells the county this story:

**Friday, I thought I'd take the day off, but I wanted to look over a few things, so I took the laptop with me to Lewisburg. I had it with me in the park down there. I tripped and it flew into the water. I couldn't get it back. The Susquehanna was high.

I had copies of everything on my office computer, so I didn't lose anything. There wasn't anything confidential on it. Here, let me reimburse the county.**

Even if the fishermen find the laptop, sans drive, 3 1/2 months and even if they contact the contract Centre County, the county will probably tell them to toss it. Even if the county doesn't, and they find the drive missing, they will assume that the drive came out when the laptop went into the water. In other words, he makes the loss of the laptop look like an accident.
 
Someone at the Centre County Courthouse says " He is the D.A. but doesn't even own a car. Drives a car with his girlfriend's mashup name on it, y'all". Ray Gricar says " Oh, yes, I do own a car, you just never saw it, Miss Smarty Pants". :)

As always, respectfully snipped.

That's rather interesting. If he owned a car, would there not be records? Driving around in a car with no inspection sticker and up to date tags/registration sticker would draw LE attention quickly. Of course he could have been talking about a collectible toy car.
 
Hi All,
I'm horrible at multi-quoting, so please forgive me. First, welcome @Lorenathered ! I was curious about the cigarette butts & DNA, too. J.J. do you (or does anyone) know if they obtained DNA from people close/known to RFG, just to rule them out? This may sound stupid, but I've seen "rabid non-smokers" bum or buy cigs & smoke, so I figure anything's possible (although I'm not very open to the idea of anyone LE may have needed to rule out being dense enough to leave their cigarette butts around RFG's car).
In re: the laptop~ any ideas on what may have been on it that worried RFG enough to destroy it? If this has been addressed at length, can someone direct me to a thread? Thanks!
 
As to the ash, I guess it would depend on the size/type of ash. I am a smoker also so pretty familiar with ash all over my car and the smell. Is there detailed information available about it or was it just casually noted? Also, did they collect any cigarette butts from area around the car?

Respectfully snipped

I am considering the scenario that there was one person driving the mini and the other tossing out the laptop, and that the passenger was smoking and dropped the ash. This would go to at least one other person being involved.
 
Hi All,
I'm horrible at multi-quoting, so please forgive me. First, welcome @Lorenathered ! I was curious about the cigarette butts & DNA, too. J.J. do you (or does anyone) know if they obtained DNA from people close/known to RFG, just to rule them out? This may sound stupid, but I've seen "rabid non-smokers" bum or buy cigs & smoke, so I figure anything's possible (although I'm not very open to the idea of anyone LE may have needed to rule out being dense enough to leave their cigarette butts around RFG's car).
In re: the laptop~ any ideas on what may have been on it that worried RFG enough to destroy it? If this has been addressed at length, can someone direct me to a thread? Thanks!

Speculation on what may have been contained on the laptop have run the gamut from PSU dirt to *advertiser censored* and/or communications, to transfer of funds offshore, to detailed exit plans, to dirt on someone of power, and even communications with a lover (married or not) that may have included photographs that could have been legacy damaging. All this is spread over a number of threads.
 
Speculation on what may have been contained on the laptop have run the gamut from PSU dirt to *advertiser censored* and/or communications, to transfer of funds offshore, to detailed exit plans, to dirt on someone of power, and even communications with a lover (married or not) that may have included photographs that could have been legacy damaging. All this is spread over a number of threads.
Thanks for your reply, @Trackergd ! I'm not surprised that this has been discussed. I'm working my way through older threads, so I'll keep an eye out.
 
Hi again all-
One of the reasons I was curious about RFG and his interest in/ ties to Penn State football was because I witnessed "babysitting", and discussions of it in relation to the University of Iowa, and also the NFL. I couldn't recall the practice well enough to define it, but I just Googled it, and found this result:
Football's Game Changers
(And we'll see if this copy & paste job worked at all)
So my question is: would RFG possibly have been a party to this sort of thing, perhaps as a favor to a friend if not due to his own interests?
 
No on the DNA of anyone close.

The "babysitting" would be very unlikely, at best. Other than prosecuting football players and tailgating, RFG didn't have any known involvement with football. He was more of a baseball fan.
 
Speculation on what may have been contained on the laptop have run the gamut from PSU dirt to *advertiser censored* and/or communications, to transfer of funds offshore, to detailed exit plans, to dirt on someone of power, and even communications with a lover (married or not) that may have included photographs that could have been legacy damaging. All this is spread over a number of threads.

There is another possibility, though I am not disagreeing with your point. He could have transferred everything from the laptop to the desktop. It might a case of him just not wanting anyone else to see it.
 
My little convo at the courthouse was my silly sense of humor, thus is hypothetical, but I imagine he's smart enough to get a car if he needs a car... he likely knew all kinds of ways to get past the paperwork. Title it in someone else' s name, IDK a lot about this as my husband does that kind of thing in our household but with AAA we are able to get everything done online except the actual physical inspection of our cars. I haven't had a new DL photo in many years because I renew online.
 
To discuss the possibility of foul play, it is possible that RFG left with someone, voluntarily, and them something happened. Being forced into another car is very unlikely.

Snipped by me with respect as well, and because the " airtight container" for 13 years is just gross.

The first rule of personal safety is " NEVER get into anyone's car for any reason." Ray definitely would have known this as a D.A. who likely prosecuted many stalking/ abduction/ rape cases.

I've known it and had it drilled into my head by my parents, then LE officers for all my adult life. But, I was hit on the head from behind and stun gunned, and scooped up at night into a car where I couldn't be seen.

So, forced abduction, but it was the one point in the assaulter's trial that was least provable- that I had not gotten into his Corvette voluntarily, as we did know each other. There was no head injury present in all the myriad of injuries almost 3 days later and stun gun left no marks at all. Of course, it was a minor moot point and he was convicted of kidnapping as well as everything else, and is now free because of his exemplary service for 30 years as a LE official.
( This is to say- " Justice is sometimes a relative term").

I guess my point is " I hate to think about it all, but have come to realize that anyone can be rendered temporarily unable to resist abduction".
In most cases, like a middle aged man such as RFG, the ending would be death, using Occam's Razor. I sincerely doubt he had a stalker who could put him into a vehicle and also keep him alive for 2 days. It would have been a criminal kidnapping and he would have been killed shortly afterwards and his remains would be found, IMO.
 
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