PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

[White Wolf]

Thanks!

 

[White Wolf]

Saw the picture. RFG is neat and organized. It was also nice to see that he had circled Lara’s Birthday on May 27th on that desk calendar.

I have a question about the discovery of the Mini on 4/16/05. Street of Shops is open 7 days a week, but was this also the case in 2005? Do we know if the working hours were about the same in 2005 too? Also could someone remind me when the bolo went out? I doubt that the people of Lewisburg would’ve been informed at the same time as State College-Altoona-Johnstown?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Saw the picture. RFG is neat and organized. It was also nice to see that he had circled Lara’s Birthday on May 27th on that desk calendar.

I have a question about the discovery of the Mini on 4/16/05. Street of Shops is open 7 days a week, but was this also the case in 2005? Do we know if the working hours were about the same in 2005 too? Also could someone remind me when the bolo went out? I doubt that the people of Lewisburg would’ve been informed at the same time as State College-Altoona-Johnstown?

Good questions. I'm not sure about the hours of the SoS in 2005.

From what I can gather the BOLO was issued either very late on the night of 4/15 or the early morning hours of 4/16/05. The BPD got the report after from PEF after 11:00 PM on 4/15/05. They did try the cell phone and left messages for RFG. They also called Chief Dixon and asked if they should issue a BOLA; he said yes, of course. How much of a gap there was between the phone calls and BOLO, if any, I don't know.

I do not of the time any given police department received the BOLO. I do know that, as time when on, the are it covered expanded. Press reports indicated that the BOLO had gone beyond the state by the time the Mini was found.

Keep in mind that there is a difference between when LE knew RFG was missing and when the public knew he was missing. State College-Altoona-Johnstown got the message around 5 PM on 4/16/05, at the earliest. The disappearance was not known outside of that area until about 10:45 PM on the same date, at the earliest.

 

[White Wolf]

Good questions. I'm not sure about the hours of the SoS in 2005.

From what I can gather the BOLO was issued either very late on the night of 4/15 or the early morning hours of 4/16/05. The BPD got the report after from PEF after 11:00 PM on 4/15/05. They did try the cell phone and left messages for RFG. They also called Chief Dixon and asked if they should issue a BOLA; he said yes, of course. How much of a gap there was between the phone calls and BOLO, if any, I don't know.

I do not of the time any given police department received the BOLO. I do know that, as time when on, the are it covered expanded. Press reports indicated that the BOLO had gone beyond the state by the time the Mini was found.

Keep in mind that there is a difference between when LE knew RFG was missing and when the public knew he was missing. State College-Altoona-Johnstown got the message around 5 PM on 4/16/05, at the earliest. The disappearance was not known outside of that area until about 10:45 PM on the same date, at the earliest.

Great stuff, J. J! No doubt that you’ve probably pieced together a window of time when Ray’s Mini ended up abandoned in the SoS parking lot? What are your thoughts on this?

I was thinking that the owners/employees of SoS would have noticed a red Mini parked in their lot upon leaving Friday after 8pm? (Of course this is assuming that the SoS hours have not changed since 2005.) Even if no one noticed a Mini that evening, certainly the owners/employees/someone would’ve noticed the red Mini parked in the lot at 9am the following morning?

What I’m really asking is, do we know of any witnesses who could put a time stamp on Ray’s final park location? Did he come to Lewisburg, park in the car’s final location when he got here, and then proceed to walk around on foot for the remainder of his time here? Do we know if he moved the car ever? I hope that I’m making sense.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Great stuff, J. J! No doubt that you’ve probably pieced together a window of time when Ray’s Mini ended up abandoned in the SoS parking lot? What are your thoughts on this?

I was thinking that the owners/employees of SoS would have noticed a red Mini parked in their lot upon leaving Friday after 8pm? (Of course this is assuming that the SoS hours have not changed since 2005.) Even if no one noticed a Mini that evening, certainly the owners/employees/someone would’ve noticed the red Mini parked in the lot at 9am the following morning?

What I’m really asking is, do we know of any witnesses who could put a time stamp on Ray’s final park location? Did he come to Lewisburg, park in the car’s final location when he got here, and then proceed to walk around on foot for the remainder of his time here? Do we know if he moved the car ever? I hope that I’m making sense.

This is a very good question, and I wish I had a good answer.

The Mini was at the northeast corner of the parking lot, in the first row; the street would run in front of it, though there was sidewalk and parking strip between the lot and the street. It might have gone unnoticed in the evening of 4/15/05. On one side were high bushes and trees. As soon as another car would pull into that front row, the view of it would be blocked from the street.

Here is 4/15-16/05 witness list:

Bellefonte to Centre Hall

9:00-9:30 AM Mr. Gricar talked via telephone to a man regarding some home maintenance. Witness call him


11:00-11:30 AM Mr. Gricar spotted “coming off the mountain” on Route 144, heading toward Centre Hall. Witness was a local lawyer.


11:30-35 Spotted turning, at a high rate of speed from Route 144 onto Route 192. Witness was a female “Courthouse worker.”



Brush Valley Area:

Times given are around 11:30 and11:12 AM. Ms. Fornicola receives a brief call from Mr. Gricar; call carried by a cell tower in the Brush Valley area. Call originated about a mile northwest of Centre Hall, on Route 192

Lewisburg: 4/15/05 (Prior to 4:00 PM)

Around noon:

Jenifer Snyder, saw Mr. Gricar and the Mini across from the Packwood House Museum

Afternoon (possibly before 1:30 PM):

At least two other witnesses saw Mr. Gricar moving the car across from the Packwood House Museum.

Bellefonte: 4/15/05


3:00 PM:


Ms Fenton sees Mr. Gricar in a metallic colored car behind the Centre County Courthouse. (Judge Grine is unsure of the day). Not on tape.

Lewisburg: 4/15/05 (After 4:00 PM)

4:00 PM-5:00 PM:

McKnight’s witness saw Mr. Gricar, driving the Mini, driving south on Route 15 near the Country Cupboard.

Circa 5:30 PM:

At least two witnesses saw Mr. Gricar moving the Mini in the parking lot across from the Street of Shops. The Mini was seen parked there later.

At least two people, Mr. Alvey and another person saw Mr. Gricar in the Street of Shops at about the same time; at least two people saw him with the “Mystery Woman.”



Lewisburg: 4/16/05

11:00 AM to Noon: Two employees, Mr. Bennett see Mr. Gricar in Street of Shops.

6:30 PM

State Police Trooper spots the Mini Cooper in the parking lot across from the Street of Shops.

I've put the Fenton sighting in italics; that is something in and of itself.

I am comfortable saying that RFG was in Lewisburg, arriving sometime around 12:15 PM to 12:30 PM on 4/15/05. I am comfortable saying that RFG was there at about 5:00 PM. I am not comfortable of saying he was in Lewisburg after about 1:30 PM and before about 5:00 PM. I am not comfortable saying that RFG was in Lewisburg after 5:00 PM.

I am not comfortable saying that RFG was in Lewisburg on 4/16/05. None of these witnesses saw him with the Mini.

I have been told that there many more witnesses on 4/16/05, but I cannot evaluate them. I don't the whens, wheres, or whose.

The earliest that the Mini was spotted was about 5:00 PM on 4/15 and it was found there on 4/15 at 6:30 PM. I can narrow it done to that 25 1/2 hour window.

 

[minazoe]

I am surprised about witnesses from the 16th. mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I am surprised about witnesses from the 16th. mOO

These had been published by the summer of 2005; Bennett was one of the first witnesses that LE found.

However, we have three witnesses, two of which work for the third, and they did not see him in the Mini. They saw him in the Street of Shops, and there is no physical evidence RFG was in the SoS.

While I have heard of other witnesses on 4/16/05, I don't have the time or location. If there were known corroborative witnesses, this would greatly reduce the chance of suicide. It would totally eliminate some murder scenarios, but leave some others wide open.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just a note, the first 2-3 pages of this thread have numerous timelines. I don't mind repeating them, but it might give a anyone a bigger picture.

 

[embufum]

So if I’m reading this correctly someone saw Ray at the sos the next morning? If so then he would have had to stay somewhere overnight?

Also, does anyone know if there was WiFi back then either at hotels or any of the shops?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

So if I’m reading this correctly someone saw Ray at the sos the next morning? If so then he would have had to stay somewhere overnight?

Also, does anyone know if there was WiFi back then either at hotels or any of the shops?

His laptop did not have WiFi; it needed a physical connection to the Internet.

Three witnesses, that we know of, stated that they saw RFG on Saturday 4/16/05 in the SoS. That does not mean that they actually saw him. They might be misidentifying someone else as RFG.

If RFG was there on Saturday morning, that would eliminate a few possibilities.

 

[embufum]

His laptop did not have WiFi; it needed a physical connection to the Internet.

Three witnesses, that we know of, stated that they saw RFG on Saturday 4/16/05 in the SOS. That does not mean that they actually saw him. They might be misidentifying someone else as RFG.

If RFG was there on Saturday morning, that would eliminate a few possibilities.

Yes it would, I think it would change things quite a bit actually. I try not to get caught up in the person goes missing to start a new life theory but imo there’s a lot here that points to that. Was Ray the type to keep his cell phone on him? Did it have GPS? Due to his type of job I’d guess he would be but who knows. I’d also think he would want to be able to keep in touch with his gf. I find it curious that he left his cell phone in the car and turned off?

We know he brought his laptop but how sure are we that he was the one who dumped it? If he was the one who dumped the laptop in the river would it have to have been before he got to Lewisburg?

If he did meet with someone then he knew that there would be no communication with that person on his cell. If it had GPS then he certainly didn't want it with him when he left. In fact no reason at all to take it.

The biggest clue to me is the laptop. If Ray was the one who dumped it, there is no way he would ever think that someone would find it. To do searches on your home computer that had to do with destroying a hard drive was obviously something that he wasn't too concerned with anyone seeing. I read he purchased software to erase hard drives?

There was obviously something on that computer that he didn't want anyone to see. Logic tells me it had to do with his plan to disappear. This would be the only was he could make a plan and keep that plan to himself. As long as he had the laptop in his possession the plan was safe. Once the plan was implemented he had no need for the laptop. Try to put yourself in Ray's mindset. Not only did he most likely erase the hard drive with software but he threw the hard drive in the river separately from the computer. It's doubtful that there is anything on that hard drive even if it was readable.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped just emphasis and brevity.

Was Ray the type to keep his cell phone on him? Did it have GPS? Due to his type of job I’d guess he would be but who knows. I’d also think he would want to be able to keep in touch with his gf. I find it curious that he left his cell phone in the car and turned off?

It didn't have GPS, as far as I know, but it did have voicemail. I don't find anything unusual about RFG turning off his cell on his day off. He did not have to be in 24 hour contract with anyone; he could just check his messages periodically. I don't think anyone found it unusual that the phone went to voicemail.

We don't know if or when RFG drop the laptop. He was seen, by at least one witness, with it in Lewisburg while inside the Mini. I think it is likely that he did toss it.

There was obviously something on that computer that he didn't want anyone to see. Logic tells me it had to do with his plan to disappear. This would be the only was he could make a plan and keep that plan to himself. As long as he had the laptop in his possession the plan was safe. Once the plan was implemented he had no need for the laptop. Try to put yourself in Ray's mindset. Not only did he most likely erase the hard drive with software but he threw the hard drive in the river separately from the computer. It's doubtful that there is anything on that hard drive even if it was readable.

We don't know if he erased the hard drive, only that he had purchased software to do so, and that software CD was nowhere to be found. I think it is likely that he did, but it is not an absolute.

RFG had wanted to get rid of the data on the hard drive for a while. He had asked about it at least a year before he disappeared and at least one person he asked was a defense attorney, so it was not case related; same with the ersaser software.

There are a lot things that, potentially, RFG may have wanted not to be seen, both work related and private. Many of those may not be tied to his disappearance.

RFG might have been planning to go to Lewisburg on 4/15/05 and thought, **Hey, this will be a great place to see that the data on the hard drive is destroyed.** He goes down the tosses everything, then meets someone, who ended up killing him. The laptop may not be related.

Of course, another scenario is that he made all of his travel plans using a secret e-mail account on the laptop and destroyed so there would not be any trace.

 

[embufum]

His laptop did not have WiFi; it needed a physical connection to the Internet.

Three witnesses, that we know of, stated that they saw RFG on Saturday 4/16/05 in the SoS. That does not mean that they actually saw him. They might be misidentifying someone else as RFG.

If RFG was there on Saturday morning, that would eliminate a few possibilities.

Yes it would, I think it would change things quite a bit actually. I try not to get caught up in the person goes missing to start a new life theory but imo there’s a lot here that points to that. Was Ray the type to keep his cell phone on him? Due to his type of job I’d guess he would be but who knows. I’d also think he would want to be able to keep in touch with his gf.

I find it curious that he left his cell phone in the car. We know he brought his laptop but how sure are we that he was the one who dumped it? If he did dump it it had to be on his way to

Snipped just emphasis and brevity.



It didn't have GPS, as far as I know, but it did have voicemail. I don't find anything unusual about RFG turning off his cell on his day off. He did not have to be in 24 hour contract with anyone; he could just check his messages periodically. I don't think anyone found it unusual that the phone went to voicemail.

We don't know if or when RFG drop the laptop. He was seen, by at least one witness, with it in Lewisburg while inside the Mini. I think it is likely that he did toss it.




We don't know if he erased the hard drive, only that he had purchased software to do so, and that software CD was nowhere to be found. I think it is likely that he did, but it is not an absolute.

RFG had wanted to get rid of the data on the hard drive for a while. He had asked about it at least a year before he disappeared and at least one person he asked was a defense attorney, so it was not case related; same with the ersaser software.

There are a lot things that, potentially, RFG may have wanted not to be seen, both work related and private. Many of those may not be tied to his disappearance.

RFG might have been planning to go to Lewisburg on 4/15/05 and thought, **Hey, this will be a great place to see that the data on the hard drive is destroyed.** He goes down the tosses everything, then meets someone, who ended up killing him. The laptop may not be related.

Of course, another scenario is that he made all of his travel plans using a secret e-mail account on the laptop and destroyed so there would not be any trace.

Thanks for the reply! Did Ray have any friends in or around Lewisburg?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thanks for the reply! Did Ray have any friends in or around Lewisburg?

Snipped for brevity only.

Not that I know of. He did an old girlfriend who was living in Harrisburg, but she was Long Island that day, at a family gathering. She was also known to some of the people at the SoS, so she would probably have been recognized.

 

[embufum]

Snipped for brevity only.

Not that I know of. He did an old girlfriend who was living in Harrisburg, but she was Long Island that day, at a family gathering. She was also known to some of the people at the SoS, so she would probably have been recognized.

I found a longtime friend who lived about 10 miles away from Lewisburg at the time. He also has a PO box in Lewisburg and still does but from what I can tell he didn't have it until 2011. There is another person associated with this PO box and this person lived in Lewisburg at the time about one to two minutes away from SOS. Now I'd guess this next part is a coincidence. This friend had a business address about 25 miles away and the date I get of when he was last associated with that place is 4-15-2005.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I found a longtime friend who lived about 10 miles away from Lewisburg at the time. He also has a PO box in Lewisburg and still does but from what I can tell he didn't have it until 2011. There is another person associated with this PO box and this person lived in Lewisburg at the time about one to two minutes away from SOS. Now I'd guess this next part is a coincidence. This friend had a business address about 25 miles away and the date I get of when he was last associated with that place is 4-15-2005.

A friend of RFG's? If you would like, PM me.

I have not heard of anyone, other than a casual acquaintance, in Lewisburg.

 

[Trackergd]

J.J. If you get that "friend" information, let me know. I would be most curious to know if that friend smoked.

 

[skoogmagoo]

J.J. If you get that "friend" information, let me know. I would be most curious to know if that friend smoked.

I think the commenter meant THEY had a friend in Lewisburg, not Ray. But, since the person never came returned to their business there, I would still be interested in this person/business.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think the commenter meant THEY had a friend in Lewisburg, not Ray. But, since the person never came returned to their business there, I would still be interested in this person/business.

I think the person in Lewisburg has remained there.

 

[embufum]

Let me cla

I think the commenter meant THEY had a friend in Lewisburg, not Ray. But, since the person never came returned to their business there, I would still be interested in this person/business.

Let me clarify. Ray had a friend who lived about 10 or so miles from Lewisburg at the time. This friend from what I can find has a PO box in Lewisburg. Says he has had it since 2011. There is also another person who is connected to this PO box and that person lives in Lewisurg. Why they both come up as being connected to the same PO box I have no idea. Could be a mistake but if it is that would just be a little hard to believe. Both of these people know each other as in I can connect them. I have no idea how well they do know each other. OK so I have so far been unable to connect the person who lives in Lewisburg to Ray. Even if I do I'm not sure what it would mean other than Ray had a friend or acquaintance in Lewisburg when he went missing. Sorry for the confusion.