PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

[minazoe]

all I can say is that to me it is fairly obvious Ray was up against something.

I also think it's strange he was seen, seen destroying the hard drive, seen moving the car, seen walking around, seen with a woman, hardly the covert operation of an experienced
law man.

don't you get in the car and go further? don't you go somewhere else, somewhere other then where you said you were going? don't you get rid of that hard drive some where private?

what a strange little day trip he made. mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

all I can say is that to me it is fairly obvious Ray was up against something.

I also think it's strange he was seen, seen destroying the hard drive, seen moving the car, seen walking around, seen with a woman, hardly the covert operation of an experienced
law man.

don't you get in the car and go further? don't you go somewhere else, somewhere other then where you said you were going? don't you get rid of that hard drive some where private?

what a strange little day trip he made. mOO

It may not have been intended to covert.

RFG called PEF about a mile from Centre Hall. He called her at the Courthouse and may not have expected PEF to answer. He'd leave a message or have the call transferred to her. At any rate, there is a record of where he was at that time.

RFG gets to Lewisburg, and parks his car across from a museum. He moves it back and forth between two spaces. He gets out and walks around. Several hours later he pulls in the parking lot and does the same thing regarding moving the car. Then he goes into the SoS, possibly chatting up a woman.

He wanted to be seen.

 

[Ozoner]

It may not have been intended to covert.

RFG called PEF about a mile from Centre Hall. He called her at the Courthouse and may not have expected PEF to answer. He'd leave a message or have the call transferred to her. At any rate, there is a record of where he was at that time.

RFG gets to Lewisburg, and parks his car across from a museum. He moves it back and forth between two spaces. He gets out and walks around. Several hours later he pulls in the parking lot and does the same thing regarding moving the car. Then he goes into the SoS, possibly chatting up a woman.

He wanted to be seen.

Not necessarily, but he apparently didn't care about being seen.

His actions could indicate that he was contemplating suicide but was hesitant—that he was procrastinating.

He may have walked a very long way before taking his own life.

 

[skoogmagoo]

It may not have been intended to covert.

RFG called PEF about a mile from Centre Hall. He called her at the Courthouse and may not have expected PEF to answer. He'd leave a message or have the call transferred to her. At any rate, there is a record of where he was at that time.

RFG gets to Lewisburg, and parks his car across from a museum. He moves it back and forth between two spaces. He gets out and walks around. Several hours later he pulls in the parking lot and does the same thing regarding moving the car. Then he goes into the SoS, possibly chatting up a woman.

He wanted to be seen.

It sounds like Ray was acting erratic and paranoid.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It sounds like Ray was acting erratic and paranoid.

Certainly not erratic. This trip to Lewisburg was planned.

RFG drove though areas without police protection and cell coverage. That does not sound paranoid.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Not necessarily, but he apparently didn't care about being seen.

His actions could indicate that he was contemplating suicide but was hesitant—that he was procrastinating.

He may have walked a very long way before taking his own life.

He could have called PEF from the house or just waited about an hour to leave, so he could let the dog out. He wasn't procrastinating.

 

[minazoe]

It may not have been intended to covert.

RFG called PEF about a mile from Centre Hall. He called her at the Courthouse and may not have expected PEF to answer. He'd leave a message or have the call transferred to her. At any rate, there is a record of where he was at that time.

RFG gets to Lewisburg, and parks his car across from a museum. He moves it back and forth between two spaces. He gets out and walks around. Several hours later he pulls in the parking lot and does the same thing regarding moving the car. Then he goes into the SoS, possibly chatting up a woman.

He wanted to be seen.

This is what Im trying to say.

 

[minazoe]

perhaps Ray had another woman and she dumped him. absolutely there was a secret. 100%

or maybe he got worked over financially and his secret money was affected.

there is a secret, there is another person involved.

because no matter how we speculate, we still come back to the one thing.

the cigarette ash in the mini.

mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

perhaps Ray had another woman and she dumped him. absolutely there was a secret. 100%

or maybe he got worked over financially and his secret money was affected.

there is a secret, there is another person involved.

because no matter how we speculate, we still come back to the one thing.

the cigarette ash in the mini.

mOO

Even the ash does not prove the involvement of someone else. Someone smoking could have been asking him for directions, or about the car; that could be the explanation of the ash. RFG could have used it as a red herring. The only thing that it shows is that the window was up and the door was locked sometime after the ash got there.

 

[minazoe]

also how much planning is involved to go to Lewisburg? seems silly. but ok I guess he has to schedule everything. I think it's weird..so much emphasis on his planning. seems every question is "covered" , there is no deviating from the path...except thats precisely what we need to do.

a relative of mine lost several million dollars in a too good to be true scam. He worked very hard for his money and after this happened , he wrapped his car around a tree and was nearly killed. he survived it all though and made money again and is fine..after he had to sell everything and start over.

I feel like Ray had money, well hidden money , even experts think this now.

I also feel like no one wanted to really look that hard for Ray.

mOO

 

[hot cawfeee]

minazoe....I think you hit the nail on the head.......no one wanted to really look that hard for Ray.........I have another WS case in mind....a guy that his wife doesn't seem to be looking hard for...no Missing posters or organized searches

 

[Ozoner]

He could have called PEF from the house or just waited about an hour to leave, so he could let the dog out. He wasn't procrastinating.

You state that opinion as if it's a fact, but he very well may have been procrastinating. I'm not talking about the point at which he left the house or made the call; I'm talking about the point at which he was going to kill himself. His sitting in his car, moving the car around, walking around, etc., could all have been meant to delay his final moment. Walking a long way could have been part of that, too. He may have planned to drown himself in the river but needed to psych himself up a bit to actually do it; he could have walked along the riverbank for miles before he finally steeled his nerves enough to be able to dive in.

Occam's razor usually prevails. Chances are Ray drowned himself in the river, and his body was missed. Eventually, it probably rose and floated downstream to be ground to bits at the dam. It can be very difficult for divers to find a body underwater. Sometimes they'll find a body within minutes, but other times they can search for days and still miss one. Divers found a woman's body in some gravel pits in Massachusetts, and even though they knew exactly where it was, when they went down a second time, they couldn't find it. The gravel pits were filled in as part of the Big Dig, so that body never will be found.

 

[minazoe]

ok, the Occam's Razor is a very good guide, however...just looking at the facts of this case,
is the only thing leading you to suicide, the suicide of his brother coupled with the laptop destruction?

I think that is a thin possibility. Maybe studies show that suicide can run in families, but I still say it's a jump.

how does the razor take you to a jump in the river?

Also I don't understand how someone who can swim can intentionally drown. Unless weighted or jumping into a treacherous body of water from a very high point.

is this river that treacherous?

 

[skoogmagoo]

ok, the Occam's Razor is a very good guide, however...just looking at the facts of this case,
is the only thing leading you to suicide, the suicide of his brother coupled with the laptop destruction?

I think that is a thin possibility. Maybe studies show that suicide can run in families, but I still say it's a jump.

how does the razor take you to a jump in the river?

Also I don't understand how someone who can swim can intentionally drown. Unless weighted or jumping into a treacherous body of water from a very high point.

is this river that treacherous?

I don't understand how a body could still be missing in a river 15 years later. The laptop and drive were found soon after Ray disappeared.

 

[Ozoner]

ok, the Occam's Razor is a very good guide, however...just looking at the facts of this case,
is the only thing leading you to suicide, the suicide of his brother coupled with the laptop destruction?

I think that is a thin possibility. Maybe studies show that suicide can run in families, but I still say it's a jump.

how does the razor take you to a jump in the river?

Also I don't understand how someone who can swim can intentionally drown. Unless weighted or jumping into a treacherous body of water from a very high point.

is this river that treacherous?

I would think that this was a suicide even if I didn't know about the brother. I know how prevalent suicide is among men in Ray's age group, and Ray's demeanor, as described by others, was that of someone at risk of suicide.

George Sanders, the actor whom most people nowadays know as the voice of Shere Khan in Disney's cartoon version of the Jungle Book, died of an intentional Nembutal overdose at age sixty-five. One of the suicide notes that he left read, "Dear World, I am leaving because I am bored. I feel I have lived long enough. I am leaving you with your worries in this sweet cesspool. Good luck." I can see those same sentiments coming from Ray.

What really clinches it for me is Ray's final phone call to his girlfriend. He didn't need to remind her to take care of the dogs. For one thing, she knew the dogs' routine as well as Ray did. For another thing, dogs will let you know when they need to be let out or want to be fed. That phone call has the feel of a final goodbye. Ray may not have actually meant to reach his girlfriend; he likely planned to leave her a voicemail message. We'll never know what he would have said.

 

[minazoe]

ozoner..I appreciate your synopsis...suicide is very difficult to comprehend... while you can say you would do it...like for sure I understand when ill people do this.. others I struggle to imagine actually doing it.

a friend of mine created an art installation out of his own hanging in the woods. he planned it as part of his expression and left lovely books of notes and a chair every detail was curated and executed for a reason.

mental illness and depression are a b$3@!+.


mOO

 

[Trackergd]

Something in the back of my mind...the movie the Untochables. Elliot Ness tells a judge that his name is on a list of people Capone is paying off. The judge is visibly worried and changes the Jury. There were three scandals a while back involving PA Judges. It is possible that there were others marginally involved that may have been on a list.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Something in the back of my mind...the movie the Untochables. Elliot Ness tells a judge that his name is on a list of people Capone is paying off. The judge is visibly worried and changes the Jury. There were three scandals a while back involving PA Judges. It is possible that there were others marginally involved that may have been on a list.

All these years later, and no (publicly reported) connection. It is possible but I'd think since RG has been legally declared deceased there'd be little to no reason to release such info if it exists. Plausible, but with each passing year it seems less likely.

 

[Trackergd]

All these years later, and no (publicly reported) connection. It is possible but I'd think since RG has been legally declared deceased there'd be little to no reason to release such info if it exists. Plausible, but with each passing year it seems less likely.

He may have been told he was on a list, or that "they" knew about something that could get him sanctioned or publicly disgraced. Not all communications are by text or email.

 

[Trackergd]

I have walked the park and the bridge as well as the surrounding area. I posted pictures way back in the thread..or the previous one. Jumping from the bridge would require him to walk out to the middle of the bridge, it would be super obvious. To jump from the downstream side would require climbing over both the concrete barrier and the higher railing. Not exactly something you stand on to take a swan dive without a few dozen people noticing. Plus it's not high enough to guarantee you would be killed upon hitting the water, like jumping from the Golden Gate bridge. No where else nearby offers an opportunity to jump in the river that would not preclude a last moment change of heart. The rail bridge is missing too much of its decking. While the woods look dense from Google Earth, in reality they are not at ground level. I have always been interested in abandoned rail right of ways so I did take the time to check from the rail bridge to the main line, just to be sure RG could not have used it to stay out of sight.