PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

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That distance is not a problem for suicide.

Roy Gricar did, in fact, travel a fairly good distance, I think 20+ miles.

There is a fairly good list:

*Joan Rivers husband, Edgar Rosenberg, actually came to Philadelphia.

*A NASCAR driver Dick Trickle, shot himself at a cemetery.

*Vince Foster is another example, if a controversial one.

*There was a professional skier Jeret Peterson, in a remote valley.

*Andrew Koening, "Boner" from Growing Pains, hung himself after visiting Vancouver.

*Spalding Gray, the actor and monologist, jumped in the river.

*Sheila Abdus-Salaam, first African American woman on New York state's highest court, jumping in the river.

I've tried to eliminate the ones that were facing some type of criminal charges. The list is not all inclusive. Except for Rosenberg (1987) and Foster (1993), all the others were post 2000.

One other thing: Dick Trickle had both the traumatic concussive repetitive brain injury we see in sports, and also cancer. He had one foot in the cemetery before he actually entered, metaphorically speaking.
 
One other thing: Dick Trickle had both the traumatic concussive repetitive brain injury we see in sports, and also cancer. He had one foot in the cemetery before he actually entered, metaphorically speaking.
Added- Dick Trickle's granddaughter was buried in the cemetery where he shot himself.. I think that's the reason for the distance in his case. There was a strong emotional tie in that place for him.
RIP, Dick Trickle. I saw him race at Daytona, Talladega, Charlotte, Atlanta, and a few other super-speedways in his relatively short NASCAR career. His specialty was the short track, which is commonly found in the N. USA vs the long SE USA super-speedways.
 
Oh, there are outliers to everything. Would you like statistics about the conditions in which suicides occur? Overwhelmingly, a person of Ray's age without some weird political or financial stressor ( referencing Rosenberg and Foster, whose manner of death is strongly contentious as you likely know) will choose a comfortable place to die.

That's not to say they will always choose pills and vodka as you stated earlier, but usually an almost certain immediate death, such as a GSW. Men are much more likely to die by self- inflicted fatal gunshot and women by intentional fatal overdoses of narcotics and alcohol. There are exceptions to this, as there are exceptions to almost every human behavior but I stand my my belief that he had NO reason to leave home to commit suicide if that was his intent. Since I give it a 1% probability, it's obvious I do not believe he committed suicide.
( and neither do you!) ;)

We don't know what was going through RFG mind.

Did RFG have a financial problem? Rivers certainly wasn't starving after that. Foster involvement seemed to be facilitating an investigation, not any wrongdoing. Was RFG an outlier?

I got the list, with 3 exceptions, from Wikipedia. Obviously not everyone who commits suicide gets a Wikipedia page. They are people that were somewhat prominent.

It wasn't known in 2005, but today a genetic link between not only depression, but to suicide linked depression, is known. It is possible that it could be determined if RFG had the trait, since they have his DNA.

My major argument against suicide is that there is no body. A lot of the other evidence, RFG's demeanor, the trip to Lewisburg, possibly even the finances, point to suicide as much as the do walkaway.

Here is an article on a genetic marker for suicide: Genetic Biomarker Identified That May Predict Suicide Risk

I'm sure that not everyone who had committed suicide had this marker, nor that everyone that has this marker commits suicide. It could increase or decrease the odds on suicide.
 
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We don't know what was going through RFG mind.

Did RFG have a financial problem? Rivers certainly wasn't starving after that. Foster involvement seemed to be facilitating an investigation, not any wrongdoing. Was RFG an outlier?

I got the list, with 3 exceptions, from Wikipedia. Obviously not everyone who commits suicide gets a Wikipedia page. They are people that were somewhat prominent.

It wasn't known in 2005, but today a genetic link between not only depression, but to suicide linked depression, is known. It is possible that it could be determined if RFG had the trait, since they have his DNA.

My major argument against suicide is that there is no body. A lot of the other evidence, RFG's demeanor, the trip to Lewisburg, possibly even the finances, point to suicide as much as the do walkaway.

Here is an article on a genetic marker for suicide: Genetic Biomarker Identified That May Predict Suicide Risk

I'm sure that not everyone who had committed suicide had this marker, nor that everyone that has this marker commits suicide. It could increase or decrease the odds on suicide.

My dear friend, I've known about the genetic links for many mental disorders for as long as we've had the human genome sequencing and the markers have been identified and released to medical professionals and mental health care professionals. As you likely recall, I fit into both categories in my professions. :)

The story about Joan River's husband's suicide is very tragic and sad because he lost HER money. Money she'd made performing for years and he wouldn't disappoint her by telling her, so he committed suicide. That's the thinking of an irrational person. I think he was utterly overwhelmed and didn't know how to get her out of the abyss. It wasn't about him, it was about her. He loved her incredibly, but suicide is a very selfish act against those who loved him, Joan and Melissa, who was young at the time.

Do a Google search about Edgar and Joan. His depression leading to his suicide was situational. He had made such bad decisions and trusted the wrong people with Joan's fortune that she was insolvent. He chose suicide in his utter despair. I do not believe his suicide had a genetic component, but it's hard to say because I never sat and talked with him, I only have Joan's memoirs to more or less follow as a guideline. Also, in recent years, Melissa has backed up what her mother said about her dad's spiraling financial despair, which he hid but they found after his suicide.
Joan did an amazing job with her comeback after his death.

I do not believe Vince Foster was a suicide, although I am aware that the death was listed as such. Each of us has to use our own discretion when reading about his affiliations and possible conflicts of interest, so to speak.

Famous people are no more likely than the gen. pop. to have any genetic marker for suicide, although there is anecdotal evidence that Bi Polar disorder is more common in creative artists. I do not know of empirical medical data establishing the same link and do not expect to see this sort of data.

You said: " A lot of the other evidence, RFG's demeanor, the trip to Lewisburg, possibly even the finances, point to suicide as much as the do walkaway."
I respectfully disagree. IF he'd sold or given away things which truly mattered to him like an Indians autographed baseball or other things of that type, then yes, maybe there'd be a case for suicide. Bue he did nothing he'd not done before other than disappear, which we ( you, Tracker, and I) collectively believe is evidence of voluntary leavetaking.

Oh, and I think Ray was a frugal and smart person who lived a quiet life. I do not think he was in financial dire straits nor would he have been had he remained in Bellefonte. He left for a different reason or reasons, I believe. Not sad, not sleazy, but his own choices and reasons for his future life on this earth. :)
JMO, of course.
 
Respectfully snipped, as always.
The story about Joan River's husband's suicide is very tragic and sad because he lost HER money. Money she'd made performing for years and he wouldn't disappoint her by telling her, so he committed suicide. That's the thinking of an irrational person. I think he was utterly overwhelmed and didn't know how to get her out of the abyss. It wasn't about him, it was about her. He loved her incredibly, but suicide is a very selfish act against those who loved him, Joan and Melissa, who was young at the time.

Do a Google search about Edgar and Joan. His depression leading to his suicide was situational. He had made such bad decisions and trusted the wrong people with Joan's fortune that she was insolvent. He chose suicide in his utter despair.

It makes no difference why Rosenberg committed; it makes a difference where he committed it. Those are all example of people who did go some distance to commit suicide. (I have to agree with four sets of investigators of Foster's death, including Ken Starr said. Suicide.)

You said: " A lot of the other evidence, RFG's demeanor, the trip to Lewisburg, possibly even the finances, point to suicide as much as the do walkaway."
I respectfully disagree. IF he'd sold or given away things which truly mattered to him like an Indians autographed baseball or other things of that type, then yes, maybe there'd be a case for suicide. Bue he did nothing he'd not done before other than disappear, which we ( you, Tracker, and I) collectively believe is evidence of voluntary leavetaking.

We don't know if RFG had an autographed baseball, or anything like that. We do know, at least partly, of his finances. They were very low, based on his income.

One explanation is estate planning. If RFG was thinking about killing himself at some point, he could be planning for his heirs, because he knew they will be getting it. If RFG was thinking about walking away, he would realize that eventually his family would have him declared dead. He could have done some estate planning because he knew they would be getting it.

The money is consistent with walkaway, but it is also consistent with suicide.
 
Respectfully snipped, as always.


It makes no difference why Rosenberg committed; it makes a difference where he committed it. Those are all example of people who did go some distance to commit suicide. (I have to agree with four sets of investigators of Foster's death, including Ken Starr said. Suicide.)



We don't know if RFG had an autographed baseball, or anything like that. We do know, at least partly, of his finances. They were very low, based on his income.

One explanation is estate planning. If RFG was thinking about killing himself at some point, he could be planning for his heirs, because he knew they will be getting it. If RFG was thinking about walking away, he would realize that eventually his family would have him declared dead. He could have done some estate planning because he knew they would be getting it.

The money is consistent with walkaway, but it is also consistent with suicide.

I'll have to do some research on where Edgar was from and so forth, and give a better answer if there is one. Sorry, but you did say " Rivers certainly wasn't starving after that".
She had to sell genuine Faberge' eggs from the Romanov court which Edgar had bought her many years before to stay in NYC. She kept most of them, but she had to sell irreplaceable collectibles.

What I was alluding to with Ray was that people who are depressed and considering suicide often will give away things they sentimentally value, regardless of the monetary value. It's quite separate from having a legal will made out. The " giving away" of personal items is very common, and, in fact, it's almost the most ominous sign we have clinically of suicidal ideation when the person denies suicidal thoughts or plans.
Behavior is important, as there are usually some clues. I was upset about poor Dick Trickle's suicide at his granddaughter's burial place. I think that's so sad that I've cried.

I think there's a message here tonight. " Live life today, find joy in this moment and this day and look well to tomorrow".

I'm going to be more positively focused from now on, and I do enjoy our back and forth banter about Ray's case. I hope we are never disrespectful in the eyes of others. I know we aren't in each other's eyes.. WAY too many years of friendship and working together on this case to ever knowingly hurt the other.
Or anyone else!! :)
 
I DO know about Edgar Rosenberg committed suicide in Philly in 1986, in that I can tell you why he was there, which I think was your point about committing suicide away from home.
He was negotiating Joan's deal for reproductions of her solid gold, platinum and gemstone jewelry to be made in China, licensed and sold by QVC!

Some of the first pieces were miniatures of her Faberge' eggs and her famous bee pins. I still have those premiere pieces, which debuted in 1990 and other reproduction pieces bearing her name continue to be sold in some form on QVC today.
Needless to say, I do not shop via the TV any longer, LOL.

Here's the Forbes article about her QVC history. Google says Edgar died in the Four Seasons hotel, which is where I'd prefer to be, all other things being equal.
The Curious Case Of Joan Rivers' QVC Line
 
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OK, so with the side discussion of suicides out of the way, I think, I'd like to offer up a prayer tonight for Ray, for all the missing, both long ago missing and recently missing, for those who are known to be deceased crime victims.
Also, prayers for their families and friends, who, like us, are wondering " what happened" and " Where is he ( or she)?" and love them for the people they knew each to be.

God above knows, and one day, we will each know as well, I believe. If not in this world, then in the next.

" God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change,
The power to change the things we can,
And the wisdom to know the difference".
Amen


~With loving compassion to all who care about the many missing children and adults; as well as those who are known to be murdered, and the most lost of all upon this earth, those with no ID yet.~
 
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Just when I have written off things like old disused residential wells as a place for a body to be hidden, I come upon an article about a man killing his girlfriend with a gun and shoving her body down a well. It's literally a hole in the dirt, as would be found when the old homestead is gone but the open well hole remains.
Size is said to be around 18 to 20 inches in diameter and is about 900 ft deep. The not- small body was found around 360ft down in the well. Note- this happened in AZ, so well depths likely don't correspond to PA well depths at all..

The well running dry years and years ago may be why the homestead was abandoned.
 
In addition to hundreds of abandoned wells and open cisterns in the woods of PA, we also have a wealth of abandoned coal mine ventilation shafts in the coal region. I ran into quite a few of them in my youth, wandering the wilds of our state. Almost fell in a couple. Most of them are unmarked and do not show on topography maps, at least current ones. I am quite sure some of them hold the answers to missing person cases. Locating them and dropping a remote camera with light on a cable would be a full time job for quite a few years.
 
In addition to hundreds of abandoned wells and open cisterns in the woods of PA, we also have a wealth of abandoned coal mine ventilation shafts in the coal region. I ran into quite a few of them in my youth, wandering the wilds of our state. Almost fell in a couple. Most of them are unmarked and do not show on topography maps, at least current ones. I am quite sure some of them hold the answers to missing person cases. Locating them and dropping a remote camera with light on a cable would be a full time job for quite a few years.

That's amazing and kind of horrific at the same time. Beloved dog goes for a walk and falls into one of PA's wells. cisterns, ventilation shafts or the like.
After seeing the photos of the lady who was shot and put in the AZ well, and seeing the well itself at ground level, it's made me rethink exactly what a well is. When I was a child, we had " well water" because our property had clear running natural springs, but there was only a pump visible above the concrete in a small outdoor room ( maybe for ventilation reasons or noise, IDK) as I recall. Our well water was very good and consistent, clear with no smell or taste. Our nearest neighbors, who built their house after ours, had horrible brown-ish water that my parents said was " sulphur water".
I couldn't have dealt with the stains on the bathroom and kitchen fixtures, even if I drank filtered bottled water ( not sure it was available in the US back then, but YKWIM). :)

I'm very glad you're still here and didn't fall in a ventilation mine shaft as a kid. :)
Did you start working with the tracking dogs when you were running through those hole-y hills?
 
In addition to hundreds of abandoned wells and open cisterns in the woods of PA, we also have a wealth of abandoned coal mine ventilation shafts in the coal region. I ran into quite a few of them in my youth, wandering the wilds of our state. Almost fell in a couple. Most of them are unmarked and do not show on topography maps, at least current ones. I am quite sure some of them hold the answers to missing person cases. Locating them and dropping a remote camera with light on a cable would be a full time job for quite a few years.

In the area around Lewisburg, and State College, there are not a lot of mine shafts, if any. The area doesn't have major coal deposits or other types of minerals that get mined via shafts. (I knew that geology course would come in handy.) There are sinkholes, but generally, those will dry out at some point and you can find anything in the bottom.

Our old ancestral home, in the Mon Valley, did have a cistern, but even by the early 1960's, if not before, it was disused. The house was hooked into the town's water supply.

The diagram below is from Canada, but this is the size of many, even in a town. They are called cistern wells. The picture will give you scale as well, though some of the wells are bigger; that one looks like it is about 24". The cap is probably between 30"-40" in diameter.

You'll find these in some farm/rural areas and possibly associated with older buildings that were built prior to the water pipes being installed.

Yes, you could fit a body in one.
 

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OK, so with the side discussion of suicides out of the way, I think, I'd like to offer up a prayer tonight for Ray, for all the missing, both long ago missing and recently missing, for those who are known to be deceased crime victims.
Also, prayers for their families and friends, who, like us, are wondering " what happened" and " Where is he ( or she)?" and love them for the people they knew each to be.

God above knows, and one day, we will each know as well, I believe. If not in this world, then in the next.

" God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change,
The power to change the things we can,
And the wisdom to know the difference".
Amen


~With loving compassion to all who care about the many missing children and adults; as well as those who are known to be murdered, and the most lost of all upon this earth, those with no ID yet.~

What a beautiful post.

I could not walk by without making this comment.

This is an Internet Post of the Day IMHO.

Deep down, I believe a majority of us feel this way.

Peace to all. Live long, and prosper :)
 
Of course we have not mentioned abandoned or unused in-ground septic tanks.

Um, dear friend, I live very near a large city, but we have a septic system, as when this huge pecan orchard was developed for residential use, the developer didn't put sewer lines in the one part ( out of 15 divisions) we live in. I chose our house despite it, and while it's just fine, I get really queasy about the " hole in the ground" thing vs " it goes to a waste treatment plant miles from here". We have a separate lot which is unused except by the septic system with just field lines for aerobic use and safety to us and our pets.

If we have to discuss septic tanks, then we must but maybe we don't need to? It's really awful to think of anyone, especially Mr. Gricar in one of those things.. I see the septic company pumper trucks in the neighborhood and gag, to be honest. :)
 
Of course we have not mentioned abandoned or unused in-ground septic tanks.

Most of the ones I've seen would be too small for a body; the house that I grew up in had one. There are bigger ones that I've seen on-line.

Now, would a body impair the function of one?

I know that it is not are particularly pleasant subject, but it is a possibility.
 
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