PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #9

[WDW]

I think it was with either the laptop or the drive, basically attached to one.

Doesn't the condition of the equipment potentially say something about who threw it in the river, or when it was thrown?

Removing the hard drive is one thing, but if it was otherwise beat up before it was thrown, I'm more inclined to think someone else threw it.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Doesn't the condition of the equipment potentially say something about who threw it in the river, or when it was thrown?

Removing the hard drive is one thing, but if it was otherwise beat up before it was thrown, I'm more inclined to think someone else threw it.

LE indicated it wasn't beat up, however. I think the tray was attached.

 

[pinktoes]

Can someone remind me why Barbara Petito had been in the State College/Bellefonte area shortly before that press release about the drug bust (photo showing gricar, corbett and others) in 2005?

I'm cross-posting this on Penn State thread because I need help with this question from people who may read there but not here.

A lot of these press and PR folks know each other. And, I think, know things that haven't been made public. Petito, formerly AG office's spokesperson, had also headed up reporting on the State College beat for wjactv, and Gary Sinderson was there at the time (and since 1983) and took over that beat sometime after BP left.

Bill Moushey, co-author of the new book Game Over, also did some AP writing (without byline). I just read an AP article out of Johnstown from Jan 2002 where Petito made a statement for AG's office about a non-related fraud case.

And recently Petito surfaced again. Hoping the competitive spirit will get us more investigative reporting.

(BTW, for some reason I'm unable to get my clicks on the thanks button to post, but I'm thanking you guys on my end. Consider yourselves thanked by pinktoes. Another mystery)

Repeating my question: Can someone remind me why Barbara Petito had been in the State College/Bellefonte area shortly before that press release about the drug bust (photo showing gricar, corbett and others) in 2005?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Can someone remind me why Barbara Petito had been in the State College/Bellefonte area shortly before that press release about the drug bust (photo showing gricar, corbett and others) in 2005?

I'm cross-posting this on Penn State thread because I need help with this question from people who may read there but not here.

A lot of these press and PR folks know each other. And, I think, know things that haven't been made public. Petito, formerly AG office's spokesperson, had also headed up reporting on the State College beat for wjactv, and Gary Sinderson was there at the time (and since 1983) and took over that beat sometime after BP left.

Bill Moushey, co-author of the new book Game Over, also did some AP writing (without byline). I just read an AP article out of Johnstown from Jan 2002 where Petito made a statement for AG's office about a non-related fraud case.

And recently Petito surfaced again. Hoping the competitive spirit will get us more investigative reporting.

(BTW, for some reason I'm unable to get my clicks on the thanks button to post, but I'm thanking you guys on my end. Consider yourselves thanked by pinktoes. Another mystery)

Repeating my question: Can someone remind me why Barbara Petito had been in the State College/Bellefonte area shortly before that press release about the drug bust (photo showing gricar, corbett and others) in 2005?

Since this was cross posted, I'll cross answer.

It's a good question.

The announcement was in State College: http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press.aspx?id=86

The only thing I could figure is that she was part of the press staff with Corbett, possibly because she was familiar with the area. That's some speculation in my part; she generally worked with another division within the AG's Office.

Just on what was known, I heard about Petito in 2007-08, and I was not the only poster on the board who did. I think you can assume that if I knew about it, so did most of the press (though a few non-press people I thought would have known did not know). I'd find it hard to believe that nobody at WJAC knew.

 

[cj327]

JJ:
I was thinking about this the other day while driving.

This may have been discussed on here previously, but I thought I would mention it. I know you are the local expert on throwing a laptop out of the window of a small car. Previously, you convinced me that the laptop had to have been thrown from the bridge rather than from the shore, and that it could have been thrown out of the passenger window from a car heading into downtown. Was it deemed unlikely to have been thrown from the driver's side window while the car was heading out of town? What if the driver had swerved into the oncoming lane and thrown it? If I was throwing a laptop out of a car while driving, it would be easier for me to swerve close to the other side of the bridge, and toss it out my window that to throw it across the car and out the passenger-side window. This is a moot point is there was a barrier between the two directions of traffic.

 

[WDW]

JJ:
I was thinking about this the other day while driving.

This may have been discussed on here previously, but I thought I would mention it. I know you are the local expert on throwing a laptop out of the window of a small car. Previously, you convinced me that the laptop had to have been thrown from the bridge rather than from the shore, and that it could have been thrown out of the passenger window from a car heading into downtown. Was it deemed unlikely to have been thrown from the driver's side window while the car was heading out of town? What if the driver had swerved into the oncoming lane and thrown it? If I was throwing a laptop out of a car while driving, it would be easier for me to swerve close to the other side of the bridge, and toss it out my window that to throw it across the car and out the passenger-side window. This is a moot point is there was a barrier between the two directions of traffic.

Doesn't someone throwing a laptop in the river want to be inconspicuous? Swerving across the road in broad daylight seems like a bad idea. But then again, so does throwing it in broad daylight.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

In answer to both cj327 and WDW , it would be possible.

I did a simulation from my parked car, which is lower and wider than a Mini. I'm shorter than RFG, and probably don't have the reach he did. My upper body strength is probably weaker than his. I was able to toss (actually more like resting it on the window frame and pushing it) a satchel weighing 7-10 pounds out the passenger window from the driver's side. RFG could have done it by himself from a slow-moving Mini or a stopped one.

The is a traffic light at both ends of the bridge and traffic does line up on the bridge; it would have been possible for someone driving the Mini to be stopped in a line of traffic and toss it. It would also be possible for some to stop briefly on the bridge, in the dead of night, and toss it.

Conversely, it could have been more easily dropped by someone in the passenger seat of a vehicle.

Mr. Gricar could have tossed it from the Mini even in the afternoon of 4/15/05. That does not mean that is what happened.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just to be clear, while it exceptionally likely that the laptop was tossed from the bridge, it isn't definite. Someone could have gotten a boat, sailed out, and dropped it where it was found, as early as 4/15/05. Somebody could have waited until the river went down, put on waders, and gingerly placed it there. Both of those possibilities take a lot more effort than tossing it from the bridge.

A few things can be ruled out. The laptop wouldn't float too far, so the laptop wasn't placed in the river near the bank and floated to that location. The laptop wasn't tossed from the bank; the distance is too far.

 

[WDW]

My thought: someone dropping a laptop/harddrive in the river probably does it primarily for concealment not the direct destruction of evidence. The average person would not expect the drive to just melt upon contact with water. They expect it to not be found. They would not want to be seen throwing it in the river. What is the visibility on the bridge? Is it in the woods or in the open? Can it be seen from a mile away? I think high visibility, lack of sidewalk, and having to swerve across the road diminishes the possibility that it was done by day or alone.

That said, buoyancy is not necessarily the issue with sinking. In addition, surface area (laptop is like a rudder), flow rate, and local eddies would all have an effect. I don't know the exact layout, but couldn't a strong current have moved it off the bottom and left it at the bridge?

When a DA goes missing, doesn't an investigator just naturally take pictures of the nearby river bank? Footprints?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

My thought: someone dropping a laptop/harddrive in the river probably does it primarily for concealment not the direct destruction of evidence. The average person would not expect the drive to just melt upon contact with water. They expect it to not be found. They would not want to be seen throwing it in the river. What is the visibility on the bridge? Is it in the woods or in the open? Can it be seen from a mile away? I think high visibility, lack of sidewalk, and having to swerve across the road diminishes the possibility that it was done by day or alone.

I think we discussed the floating possibility on a prior thread.

It would be difficult, even in daylight, to see someone dropping it, and to be able to identify the car. You'd almost have to be standing in the park looking at the bridge to see it go over.

When a DA goes missing, doesn't an investigator just naturally take pictures of the nearby river bank? Footprints?

No, I don't think so. When I was there, in 2009, I didn't leave any footprints. The muddy parts were under water on 4/15/05.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

One of the great problems that I have isn't the drive ending up in the river, but the laptop ending up in the river.

We know he wanted to get rid of the data on the drive; tossing the drive into the water will do that, and the searches indicate that he was looking at that possibility.

Tossing the laptop creates two possibilities:

1. RFG tossed the drive and then tossed the laptop to conceal the fact. Okay, why not just take the drive and leave the laptop at home? Why not toss the drive from the bridge? It's easier to toss from a Mini and the river is deeper.

2. Someone else tossed the laptop after murdering RFG. The only reason I can come up with is that the someone else had it, and didn't realize it, and wanted to get rid of it.

 

[WDW]

Tossing the laptop creates two possibilities:

1. RFG tossed the drive and then tossed the laptop to conceal the fact. Okay, why not just take the drive and leave the laptop at home? Why not toss the drive from the bridge? It's easier to toss from a Mini and the river is deeper.

Well the laptop is the career. If RFG tosses the drive, he might as well toss the computer. He is not going home. He is calling it quits.

2. Someone else tossed the laptop after murdering RFG. The only reason I can come up with is that the someone else had it, and didn't realize it, and wanted to get rid of it.

Maybe they had some interest in the data. Maybe that is what the meeting was about. They may have inspected it and tossed it (maybe later), back near the suspected crime scene.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Well the laptop is the career. If RFG tosses the drive, he might as well toss the computer. He is not going home. He is calling it quits.

Possibly, but why go to the trouble of removing and tossing the drive at a different location?

Maybe they had some interest in the data. Maybe that is what the meeting was about. They may have inspected it and tossed it (maybe later), back near the suspected crime scene.

We know RFG wanted to get rid of the data, and that is understandable with retirement.

Why would someone else remove the drive and toss the computer in the middle of the river? If it was just destroy (incriminating) data, how would the tosser know if RFG didn't make copies? I mean, he had two other computers and there is always a flash drive or printed documents.

I think we are missing something. "We" includes me.

 

[WDW]

Possibly, but why go to the trouble of removing and tossing the drive at a different location?

Maybe RFG took it out to give to the other party.

Why would someone else remove the drive and toss the computer in the middle of the river? If it was just destroy (incriminating) data, how would the tosser know if RFG didn't make copies? I mean, he had two other computers and there is always a flash drive or printed documents.

The tosser would toss what they had. Copies or no copies.

 

[WDW]

Wouldn't the possibility of suicide cause people to review the circumstances of his brothers death?

Also, people are surprised by RFG's background investigation, but didn't his brother work at an Air Force base? Might that have triggered an investigation too.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Maybe RFG took it out to give to the other party.

The other would need a computer with a compatible drive (or else would be using the drive as a paper weight). All the data on the drive could have been downloaded to a removable medium, like a flash drive.

The tosser would toss what they had. Copies or no copies.

Why? Not knowing if there were copies could mean that all the data that was on the drive was:

1. On another computer.

2. On a flash drive.

3. Printed out.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Wouldn't the possibility of suicide cause people to review the circumstances of his brothers death?

From the way Tony Gricar talked, it was clear that Roy had long term psychological problems.

Also, people are surprised by RFG's background investigation, but didn't his brother work at an Air Force base? Might that have triggered an investigation too.

The FBI background check actually says why they were doing it. It was prior to RFG's appointment as a Special Assistant US Attorney, and was part of a cross certification program. I had a neighbor in the mid 1980's who had one of those and questioned me; she was working for the sales branch of Bureau of Prisons. Some of my professors that they would be contacted for students considered for government positions.

I think Roy had been at the Air Force base for about a decade prior to RFG's background check.

There is a blog up on the contents, but I think the background check was routine.

 

[GarAndTeed]

Patty looks so much like Barbara that we were stunned the first time we realized who Barbara was. Again, possibly a matter of convenience. Smallish women appear neat and professional easier than a plus- sized woman does.
Convenience redux in a most unusual striking similarity between the two women.

Just a theory, but the nurse love story more or less sealed it for me.

Hey All,
Seeking Jana, could you please clarify for me which Barbara you're referring to (ex wife or "media friend")? I can't seem to get the photo in the older article JJ has cited to show up, and I've never seen a photo of Ray's first ex-wife, so I'm a bit confused. Also, is it known if Ray & "friend" Barbara were, in fact, more than friends?
Also, in Ganim's article, she says prosecutors aren't eligible for witness protection. Can anyone expand on why this is so?
Thanks!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Also, in Ganim's article, she says prosecutors aren't eligible for witness protection. Can anyone expand on why this is so?
Thanks!

The Witness Security Program (I think that is what it is called), is specifically for people who either have or will testify as witnesses. It doesn't include prosecutors.

 

[WDW]

The Witness Security Program (I think that is what it is called), is specifically for people who either have or will testify as witnesses. It doesn't include prosecutors.

Then it seems like he could have been eligible if he was to testify before a grand jury? Something like a corruption case? It is not like that never happens in Pennsylvania.