PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

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what are the odds of someone having a heart attack at just the right moment in just the right place that they so effectively disappear themselves?

what are the chances? that said I am sure it has happened..

mOO


It is not likely, less than one percent IMO, but it is possible. When I give the odds, I usually post 1% something else. This is one of the something elses. Another possible is that he entered a fugue state and, somehow, left the area.
 
what are the odds of someone having a heart attack at just the right moment in just the right place that they so effectively disappear themselves?

what are the chances? that said I am sure it has happened..

mOO
It happens where I live. But their body's are usually found sooner or later by other hunters. It's usually hunters or mushroom pickers who find most of the missing people in this area.
 
It is not likely, less than one percent IMO, but it is possible. When I give the odds, I usually post 1% something else. This is one of the something elses. Another possible is that he entered a fugue state and, somehow, left the area.

In what way do you believe Ray, if in a fugue state, would have left the area?

Also, as fugue states are usually psychological in mode, what points to any shock or series of non-physical traumas that would have put Ray into a temporary fugue state? ( They are always temporary, by definition).

I'm asking because we've debated since 2006 or so about " How did he leave Lewisburg?"

Are you thinking of an abduction under severe psychological or physical duress? Psychological: " We have your daughter. She is alive and will remain alive if you do XYZ to get our organization off the hook for this crime" so he walks where he is led.... Or acute physical and psychological trauma such as from a gun in his back which ended in a fatal shooting on the day he went missing?
In the first scenario, he would probably be seeing Lara in her favorite jeans and yellow daisy print top when she was 6 years old- something of that nature. Disconnect from the present. ... In the second case, he might be thinking of his favorite dog from childhood, but his steps would likely be slow and heavy nevertheless. A true mind/ body disconnect for a short time out of necessity.

In those situations, he could have been killed anywhere that was private, and his body dismembered, burned, frozen, anything in between anywhere in the country.
We've seen this sort of depravity borne out in our news. There is no respect for human life by a growing segment of the population. There are extremely horrific actions against humans with little connection to the perp in life stages from infants to great- grandfathers- the entire age spectrum.

I don't think this happened, but it could have, as you said. I do not think he would have tried to fight his way out of any situation unless he was very certain he would win, for reasons I can't think of, really. Nothing about him says " Tough guy" to me. I'd much rather have a non- fighting type of person as my friend, though!!! :)
 
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I believe his personality and work ethic doesn't jive at all with *advertiser censored* on his work computer. He just wasn't that type of person at all.


Although this is a preposterous theory the fact remains that No One is the type of person that would have *advertiser censored* on his computer.
 
If he was a narcissist he would’ve been able to fool anyone anywhere anytime into thinking what a wonderful guy he was, and fool them for many years.

I know. I’ve lived this and witnessed this. A narcissist can be a completely different person from the good looking, gregarious, God-loving, successful person who they pretend to be. They love collecting droves of people who think that they hung the moon. When their public face finally slips, neighbors. coworkers, medical professionals, psychiatric professionals, clergy, and people who only see occasionally him at the grocery store will come out in droves to defend the narcissist and say that they can’t possibly have done” that “. Whatever “that” is.

All narcissists have a supply. The person who has been his supply ( a wife, girlfriend, other family member) is the only one who will truly know who he is, and if this person is still traumatized by living with the narcissist they may not even realize the whole truth until long after he’s gone.

I have no knowledge at all that this is the case with Ray. I’m just saying it is very possible for a man to have abuse of power, sexual deviancy, lies, *advertiser censored*, drugs, illegal activities, physical or mental abuse and complete disregard for God or moral boundaries going on but no one sees it because their impressive facade is impeccable.

MOO
 
Robert Buehner, the former Montour County District Attorney, who served as D.A. for 20 years, reached out to the I-Team after our report aired. He says he’s had information for quite some time that he believes could help solve the mystery surrounding Gricar’s disappearance.

“Complete heart break that this mystery has not been resolved,” said Buehner.

Buehner has researched the disappearance of his good friend Ray Gricar since the early days of the investigation. He has a file filled with information that he has collected, and says he’s confident this information as well as other information already gathered by investigators over the last 15 years could lead to answers.

“I strongly believe that Ray Gricar was the victim of foul play. I felt that from the early days of the investigation,” said Buehner.

Buehner tells the I-Team: “I strongly believe that there are several people that are still alive who know what happened to Ray Gricar, know how he was lured to Lewisburg and know what happened after he was in Lewisburg.”

“From the information I received from a couple of sources that reached out to me, which I passed on to investigators, I had a pretty strong sense in general who was responsible, the actual details, no, but specifically who did it, yes,” said Buehner.

“It is an open case. State Police detective is assigned to it, every year we get we have leads we follow them up,” said Bernie Cantorna, Centre County District Attorney.

Cantorna was elected as Centre County District Attorney in 2018. He says he too was a friend of Gricar. We asked him about the information that Buehner says he forwarded to investigators years ago.

“I can’t comment on the specifics regarding what he would have forwarded to the State Police or Bellefonte Police but there’s been multiple task force meetings, there have been rooms of investigators that had been looking at every piece of evidence. It is an important case for law enforcement as any that exists. We will review any information that comes to our office,” said Cantorna.

D.A. Cantorna urges anyone who has information about the case to contact State Police at Rockview or the Centre County District Attorney’s Office.
I-Team | Eyewitness News
 
If he was a narcissist he would’ve been able to fool anyone anywhere anytime into thinking what a wonderful guy he was, and fool them for many years.

I know. I’ve lived this and witnessed this. A narcissist can be a completely different person from the good looking, gregarious, God-loving, successful person who they pretend to be. They love collecting droves of people who think that they hung the moon. When their public face finally slips, neighbors. coworkers, medical professionals, psychiatric professionals, clergy, and people who only see occasionally him at the grocery store will come out in droves to defend the narcissist and say that they can’t possibly have done” that “. Whatever “that” is.

All narcissists have a supply. The person who has been his supply ( a wife, girlfriend, other family member) is the only one who will truly know who he is, and if this person is still traumatized by living with the narcissist they may not even realize the whole truth until long after he’s gone.

I have no knowledge at all that this is the case with Ray. I’m just saying it is very possible for a man to have abuse of power, sexual deviancy, lies, *advertiser censored*, drugs, illegal activities, physical or mental abuse and complete disregard for God or moral boundaries going on but no one sees it because their impressive facade is impeccable.

MOO

Actually, as Ray was in the public eye and also could have chosen to be defensive about decisions he and his ADAs made, malignant narcissism would have been extremely evident in the tone of " voice" used, and in other mannerisms such as dressing in designer Italian suits, living with a flashy wife or girlfriend in a large house outside Bellefonte in the nearest area of wealthy residents.

He would have had expensive hobbies such as golfing, boating with friends, and would have been likely to " talk up" the stock market when Bob B. and his friends discussed it and he wasn't interested. He made a larger than ordinary salary for that area, and he was frugal with his personal spending.

We measure a person by what they say, by what they don't say, what they do and what they don't do. As far as I can see, Ray married a nice and smart but plain little first wife, and his next longest relationship was with a woman who could have been his first ex- wife's sister! And both are what I consider to be a bit unusual looking.
( Emma was the outlier, and he disliked her frivolity and apparent lack of common sense.)
I'm not going to address the baseless comments about sexual criminal behavior and other deviant behaviors, because they are totally without merit. NO HINT of anything has been said, reported, told, or photographed about Ray Gricar.

The kind of man Ray Gricar was/ is:
He cared enough about his critically injured ADA that he went to his bedside and READ TO HIM many times, we're told.
He cared enough about his girlfriend's elderly dog that he had a routine to come home to let her outdoors and probably check on her welfare in their home during the day.
He cared enough to call the court house on the day he went to Lewisburg to tell Patti that he would not be home to take the dog outdoors during that work day.

By all accounts from family, he was close to his brother, Roy, and tried hard to understand his brother's suicide, but never did accept it. That's typical of a loving sibling.

He wanted a child enough to adopt a baby with his first wife, something a lot of people won't do. I know, as I was also an adopted baby.
He loved his daughter so much that he wanted to be a stay at home parent when she was a baby, as Barbara made enough money for him to be home full time.
( They didn't do this, but Ray wanted to!)

The measure of a person's life is how they treat someone who can do NOTHING for them.
Ray Gricar never failed to DO and GIVE to his long-term former spouse, Barbara, to his friends, or to his daughter, as far as I've ever been able to tell.
In fact, it is his kind nature and gentle spirit that reminds me so of my own daddy and makes me wish I'd known Ray Gricar as a friend ( he chose a modest little sports car and put it in his girlfriend's name, and lived with her in her house, he loved an older sick dog, and he spoke to his daughter almost daily and planned visits to see her in her home across the country as often as possible.)

He was a lot like my daddy, also a public official, but appointed. He never let his career title dictate what his behavior should be, I don't think. He was down to earth, a good man, one who likely helped others from what we know from Smith's anecdotes about his sense of charity.

There is not a Narcissist alive who would have this provable life profile.
I'm a psychologist, and to me, his life has few blips of incongruity. ( The Cleveland baseball trip being one, but he was angry at his 2nd wife, Emma, who apparently was rather flighty, and went to his hometown to see his favorite team play instead of acting in anger. Another reason to believe he was a man who thought of others and was slow to anger)... Not a narcissist in any way, but likely did/ does have healthy self esteem.
 
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Although this is a preposterous theory the fact remains that No One is the type of person that would have *advertiser censored* on his computer.

Isn't *advertiser censored* involving minors the genre which is illegal and also one of the indicators of deviant behavior? Not adult images made for the purpose of ' adult entertainment', but the exploitation of children?
I think it's important that we differentiate between the unsavory but legal, and the illegal.

We have never been told that any illegal *advertiser censored* was in Ray Gricar's possession or home. Or adult *advertiser censored*, either, for that matter....
Thank you.
 
It is not likely, less than one percent IMO, but it is possible. When I give the odds, I usually post 1% something else. This is one of the something elses. Another possible is that he entered a fugue state and, somehow, left the area.

There is some action(s) that created an outcome that is counterintuitive in this case. The idea of an accident on the river appears to me to require the fewest number of counterintuitive outcomes to occur. I am very likely wrong, but so many of the other explanations require a large number of anomalies to be believable. This explanation only requires that the body is not found. If the logic in this case easily added up it would've been solved by now.
 
There is some action(s) that created an outcome that is counterintuitive in this case. The idea of an accident on the river appears to me to require the fewest number of counterintuitive outcomes to occur. I am very likely wrong, but so many of the other explanations require a large number of anomalies to be believable. This explanation only requires that the body is not found. If the logic in this case easily added up it would've been solved by now.

I could be wrong, but I think what you are wanting to discuss is what I call a one- two punch.
Meaning, one bad thing happened, which then led to vulnerability to a second negative action in quick succession upon a person or by a person which led to their unusual demise. ( accidental death or murder).

The thing about the Susquehanna River at his last known location in Lewisburg was WADING DEPTH at that time. This is factual.
I suppose one could formulate a theory in which a head blow led to him falling into shallows, and drowning, as drowning can occur in 2-3 inches of water, but this was a public place. People were around and had their eyes open.
I don't believe this is likely at all. Who lets someone pound them in the head without fighting back? He was a smart man, he knew how to shout " Help! Fire! Call 911!" or the like but no one reported any disturbances.
Upon questioning, several people have reported seeing him in the Packwood House, in the park with a laptop, and in the Street of Shops, but NO ONE has said he was down by the riverbank. NO one has said " He was walking on the railroad bridge".
NO one has said anything to indicate he was near the river.

This is a man who disliked water and didn't swim well or like to swim. He would not be led to the water's edge unless he wanted to go there.

You can't have a big person strong- arming a guy in broad daylight in a small town where people see EVERYTHING that comes and goes.

There is no evidence he even got his shoes damp. I do not know what's difficult about " The water was around 4 feet deep" but it would be hard to die in the Sus that day if a person was trying to die in that river on that day.

Unless you have evidence that he somehow belly flopped into 4 foot water to die, the theory doesn't hold up. I think sometimes, our personal perceptions and experiences cloud the truth. I do not know whether you have any or much experience with bodies of water, but most people have at least looked at a shallow body of water vs. a deep and swift moving large river.
I've lived on the Gulf of Mexico, and a major river, and live on a river presently where both children and adults drown pretty often. ( I love water views very much and respect, but do not fear, the water).

It's easy to see flood stage river water and how dangerous it would be to go kayaking or swimming that day, and what a struggle boating would be until the water calmed back down. Or, in the case of the Tennessee River, it was dangerous every day due to the depth and the many hidden shoals.

The Susquehanna was NOT a killer at that time in Lewisburg, although people can drown in a bowl of soup, theoretically.
Dead bodies rise to the top as soon as the water temperature in spring reaches the point that bacteria gasses force them to be a floater. April 15 was likely not very far from that point, even in PA.

When those of us who have gone through all the known statements, conditions, financials, friends' and non- friends' statements, known movements, results of searches and other evidence related to or of Ray Gricar since 2005 say " It's extremely unlikely he drowned" what we mean is " We discussed this theory until our fingers were almost bloody, and the consensus of all of us is that the water was too shallow to kill a grown man, plus there's no indication that he was extremely near or in the water."

If your " cue" is taken from the water- damaged laptop found in the river, it is believed it likely was thrown from an open window on the bridge considering where it was found. We can't determine with certainty who threw it into the water, but we know it was found in the shallow waters next to a bridge pylon. Not indicative of foul play, just littering and destruction of Centre County property with little value to the county. It is possible he waded into the river, bent over, and placed the laptop in the river after dark. Even if he did, that's not a fatal action. Also, there are reports of him being seen in Lewisburg, then elsewhere in the state, then outside PA but still in the country, on the 16th and beyond.
There is sufficient evidence that Ray Gricar did not drown to put the theory of misadventure in the Susquehanna way down near the list to almost impossibility due to the credible sightings of him in the subsequent days and weeks. SAR boats with dogs and divers ( waders?) were in the water quickly and NOTHING was found that pointed to an " incident" in the shallow river.

Are you familiar with the prevailing theory that he wanted to leave the country and did so safely and legally? That no crime occurred? Those of us who still post about Mr. Gricar do so, with a few exceptions, because we believe he did manage to get away undetected or at least unknown to the general public. We hope and believe in the absence of evidence to the contrary, that he did make it to the country of his choice, and has had a great long life, and is still alive.
Thanks for reading.
 
Isn't *advertiser censored* involving minors the genre which is illegal and also one of the indicators of deviant behavior? Not adult images made for the purpose of ' adult entertainment', but the exploitation of children?
I think it's important that we differentiate between the unsavory but legal, and the illegal.

We have never been told that any illegal *advertiser censored* was in Ray Gricar's possession or home. Or adult *advertiser censored*, either, for that matter....
Thank you.

I really regret throwing the *advertiser censored* statement in my original post. I attempted to use it as an example of something he wanted to make sure nobody ever saw. I actually put the term innocuous in the post thinking that would clarify it was nothing illegal. I wish would've said bad romance novels or space alien theories instead.
 
I really regret throwing the *advertiser censored* statement in my original post. I attempted to use it as an example of something he wanted to make sure nobody ever saw. I actually put the term innocuous in the post thinking that would clarify it was nothing illegal. I wish would've said bad romance novels or space alien theories instead.

I was simply clarifying. As you might imagine, we had tons of these convos during the Sandusky scandals.
ALL were by speculators and baseless in facts.
NO evidence has ever come to light that RFG was involved with child *advertiser censored*. He was a prosecutor of those who exploited and hurt children and vulnerable adults. He was/ is a very good man!!
 
Snipped just for length.

In what way do you believe Ray, if in a fugue state, would have left the area?

Also, as fugue states are usually psychological in mode, what points to any shock or series of non-physical traumas that would have put Ray into a temporary fugue state? ( They are always temporary, by definition).

I'm asking because we've debated since 2006 or so about " How did he leave Lewisburg?"

He could have walked off for day, or hitched a ride, in theory.

Fugue state is a very outside possibility. It ranks down there with being kidnapped by a woman and being chained up in her basement. :)
 
I really regret throwing the *advertiser censored* statement in my original post. I attempted to use it as an example of something he wanted to make sure nobody ever saw. I actually put the term innocuous in the post thinking that would clarify it was nothing illegal. I wish would've said bad romance novels or space alien theories instead.

I wouldn't regret it.

We had something in PA called "porngate." Pennsylvania A.G. releases 'Porngate' report — but without names This was judges and prosecutors sharing questionable email.

The emails were, for the most part, innocuous jokes. None of it was illegal, but it became embarrassing. Two state Supreme Judges resigned because of it.

RFG could have had that kind of material on what he was using on his home computer, and just thought it would be embarrassing to himself or others if he didn't get rid of it. That would not be unusual in governmental or legal circles in PA in 2005. Remember that RFG used the laptop as his home computer for probably a year or more prior to his disappearance.
 
There is some action(s) that created an outcome that is counterintuitive in this case. The idea of an accident on the river appears to me to require the fewest number of counterintuitive outcomes to occur. I am very likely wrong, but so many of the other explanations require a large number of anomalies to be believable. This explanation only requires that the body is not found. If the logic in this case easily added up it would've been solved by now.

I did take a look at what evidence we have. Much of it is "This points to _____ or it is coincidental." All the evidence we have could point to walkaway. Much of the evidence could also point to foul play, and the rest could be a coincidence.
 
I have received a trailer for a podcast dedicated solely to the Gricar case that is to start in April. However, I cannot get it uploaded. When I get the link, I'll post.

I've heard the podcaster is a woman named Rebecca Knight. From what I've heard, she has research the case for a decade, and has a lot of insider information.
 
Snipped just for length.



He could have walked off for day, or hitched a ride, in theory.

Fugue state is a very outside possibility. It ranks down there with being kidnapped by a woman and being chained up in her basement. :)

Also, both are temporary states... Which begs the question, of course, " Then what happened and why has he not been found or remains been found?"

Addendum with a semi- personal slant- Almost died this week. -0 degree temps for days, failure of our power grids in Texas in -0 degree temps, no food, no water, no open supermarkets, nor reliable heat source. I've NEVER known cold until now, and am FINALLY paying a lot to stay in a hotel until our utilities are restored without rolling blackouts. The record cold temperatures for this state have produced these rolling blackouts ( which serve to burn up pool motors and goof with hot water heaters most of all) are a stop gap measure to " Let's just keep the power off past 7 days and let them freeze to death".

HIT the wall with our slightly too small, smoky modern fireplace capabilities. It is a modern design for show, not performance. Would definitely have perished if next door neighbor hadn't given tons of firewood, as there was none for sale. ( He will be rewarded by us, his grateful friends in this lifetime, and by God in the next. He and his wife had their house built with gas heat capabilities- they had to have their own permanent lines and tank installed. Tank has to be refilled, of course). There are NO permanent gas lines of any type here. )|
We will be buying a huge gasoline powered generator ASAP for future life comfort including the almost yearly 115 degree summer blackouts ).

I have had a lot of time to understand also how cold it could have gotten in April in PA, as well as the ALLURE of leaving cold winters for the tropics for anyone tired of bone- rattling cold, ice, and snow.
You'd better Belize I'm ready to go tropical!!
It's added another layer to my thinking about someone with the abilities to just LEAVE.
 
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