PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

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wait , I know this sounds horrible..but what if the blonde was a hooker? what if she smoked in the car? what if this was a fantasy where he meets a blonde woman at an antique fair and has a liaison in a parking lot? wonder if was one of these men with elaborate sexual fantasies like this...think playing secretary, or sexy nurse....

did he have a secret phone?

my mind is going in many directions now. mOO
 
Imagine the work load for the DA in that particular area. It seems the almost 50,000 students enrolled at Penn State may burden the court's calendar. :) The female manager at the Cecil Hotel wasn't bothered by the 80+ deaths that occurred during her employment there. :(

JJ published a list of multiple occasions that depict Gricar's odd behavior beginning on March 8, 2005. When I first read the incidents, I wondered if Ray may have suffered a stroke or had early onset Dementia.

Mr. Gricar wasn't alert, appeared unfocused and agitated. He stared out the window. He mumbled responses and was uable to answer simple questions adequately. He was sleeping more than usual. I also recall reading he lost his last court trial on a manslaughter charge.

Ray may have had an undiagnosed illness such as Lewy Body Dementia. My sister is in her 50s and has each of those symptoms+. She was placed in an assisted living facility in January due to Lewy Body. It's the brain disease Robin Williams also suffered. Special tests are required for a LBD diagnosis. Ray wouldn't see a Dr when Patty urged him to do so.

It seems whatever was wrong, Ray's condition was deteriorating. Why would this brilliant man need a printed copy of a map of Lewisburg?

Post #121 Thread #15 From 2016:

PA - PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

His medical records were opened and gone over carefully. No abnormalities were noted.

I'm really sorry about your sister, but as both an RN and a Behavioral Psychologist, I believe you are projecting symptoms and diseases onto Ray Gricar that didn't exist.

Let me rebut your argument a bit here.
Let's start with work. We are told he'd been a bit withdrawn, but if one of us was making plans to leave everyone behind, we likely would " withdraw" from them emotionally before we actually left them.

He left NO body of work for his successor to have to pick up, rummage through and try to make sense of. He was orderly, meticulously so, and disorganization is one of the first signs of a degeneration of a personality and disordered thinking.
He did not change ANYTHING in his routine. He went to a place he was known to go to shop for small antique toys.

He was not reported to be unshaven, sloppily dressed, with less than groomed hair and a sparkling clean car, which was a very long habit of his. His car was spotless inside and out. His belongings were secured properly. ( The exception is the small ash believed to be cigarette ash, and which we can't source. He could have tracked it on his own shoe from the parking lot. Used the passenger door to place his cell phone inside, for example. It would be slightly easier to place from passenger's side than driver's side ( steering wheel and gear shift).

Lastly, he called Patty to tell her he would not be home at lunch to take Honey,the elderly cocker spaniel, out. That's a VERY CARING and THOUGHTFUL thing to do. As a dog owner and lover of dogs since birth, it means a lot to me that he didn't neglect their dog that day, which was full of decisions and emotions arising from those decisions.
These are not the signs or symptoms of someone with an undiagnosed neurological disorder.

Also, in the video we have of him walking from his parking spot across the parking lot and into the courthouse, he was very normally agile, his gait was perfectly normal, and he was ALERT to the environment, turning at one point to look at a Jeep speeding out of the employee's parking lot.
He had zero problems navigating the stairs, almost sprinting upstairs. This was a man in good health, in my professional opinion.

I think all of us have considered degenerative diseases as a reason to run, or to be confused and disoriented, ( J and I did 3 pages back) but he drove exactly to the place he was known to like in Lewisburg. Obviously, since the map was in his office trash and he was long gone, he didn't need the map himself. He was probably giving the best route, or maybe a particular hotel address to a 3rd party. The unknown helper.

Another thing: IF he needed to print out a map to get to Lewisburg, then why didn't he need to have the map close at hand if he was that impaired?
I'm sorry but the facts we are as certain as we can be of without being there do not fit your suppositions.

Also, the thing about being possibly depressed: The family and Ray's friends were trying VERY HARD at that time to GET his medical records and any Psych Records released to the next of kin. Probable cause is needed to release such documents. Most of us believe at least part of the symptoms of tiredness and possibly illness were manufactured to create PROBABLE CAUSE to have an examination of all his medical records.
I find this to be a smart strategy on their parts, actually. I'd do it if I needed to for my DH, but not for anyone else. ( I have DH's POA and so forth already but this was not true for Ray Gricar).

They looked long and hard for a physical or psychogenic cause for his decision to leave in a most orderly and covert way and NONE was found. NOTHING was out of order, NONE of his work or his personal life had a red arrow over it. He was a very stable man from all accounts of friends and co-workers.
He was a consummate professional and intellectual man up until last known conversation and sighting of Ray F. Gricar.

His name should not be sullied with unsubstantiated rumors that he had the devastating Lewy Body Dementia. It's VERY obvious they are extremely ill. I've studied the disease in Neuroscience. People are paranoid very early on, and do very unusual things before they are able to be diagnosed.

NONE of that applied to the visage and mental acuity of Ray Gricar in April, 2005, or prior. Just no evidence at all that he had a neurodegenerative disease, respectfully.
 
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wait , I know this sounds horrible..but what if the blonde was a hooker? what if she smoked in the car? what if this was a fantasy where he meets a blonde woman at an antique fair and has a liaison in a parking lot? wonder if was one of these men with elaborate sexual fantasies like this...think playing secretary, or sexy nurse....

did he have a secret phone?

my mind is going in many directions now. mOO

Uh, hot sex in a Mini Cooper, 2004-2005 sports package edition?
The car does not lend itself to such things. Go sit in one at a dealer's. Someone would get a room somewhere before they'd just about torture themselves in a small sports car.
Also, why would you assume that Ray would have to pick up a hooker or other sleaze in Lewisburg when he was a prominent person much closer to " home" with much less effort required?

Your mind can squirm all it wants to but this is out of left field and demeans the man you are writing such things about. :) He was a man of great integrity and he was highly respected, and greatly missed.
 
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His medical records were opened and gone over carefully. No abnormalities were noted.
I am well aware of his medical records. However, as stated, Patty requested he visit a Dr. but he wouldn't.
I'm really sorry about your sister, but as both an RN and a Behavioral Psychologist, I believe you are projecting symptoms and diseases onto Ray Gricar that didn't exist.
Thank you. I spent many years in the Surgical Suite so human anatomy and physiology are not foreign to me.
No, I am not projecting symptoms. I left the link that leads to the incidents JJ published, of which, I did not, in any way, mischaracterize.
Let me rebut your argument a bit here.
Let's start with work. We are told he'd been a bit withdrawn, but if one of us was making plans to leave everyone behind, we likely would " withdraw" from them emotionally before we actually left them.
Being a bit withdrawn is not the same as being distraught and two witnesses presented opinions that claimed Ray was distraught.
He left NO body of work for his successor to have to pick up, rummage through and try to make sense of. He was orderly, meticulously so, and this is one of the first signs of a degeneration of a personality and disordered thinking.
He did not change ANYTHING in his routine. He went to a place he was known to go to shop for small antique toys.
Every body is different. If it was something like LBD, he may not have presented as being disordered or messy. It would depend on which portion of the brain had the Lewy Bodies. And, I'm not saying that he did have LBD. I am speculating on a reasonable explanation for his unusual behavior.
He was not reported to be unshaven, sloppily dressed, with less than groomed hair and a sparkling clean car, which was a very long habit of his.

Lastly, he called Patty to tell her he would not be home at lunch to take the elderly cocker spaniel out.
These are not the signs or symptoms of someone with an undiagnosed neurological disorder.
Patty was surprised that Ray did not leave her a note. I agree his appearance seemed neat but I cannot speak to his bathing habits. Isn't it true that he wore the same clothing on the 15th as he did on the evening before when entering his building: blue fleece jacket, blue jeans and sneakers?
Also, in the video we have of him walking from his parking spot across the parking lot and into the courthouse, he was very normally agile, his gait was perfectly normal, and he was ALERT to the environment, turning at one point to look at a Jeep speeding out of the employee's parking lot.
He had zero problems navigating the stairs, almost sprinting upstairs. This was a man in good health, in my professional opinion.
Not one thing is wrong with my sister's walk. She has long, slender legs and can walk faster than most of us because, currently, nothing is wrong with her legs. It's her brain that's diseased.
I think all of us have considered degenerative diseases as a reason to run, or to be confused and disoriented, but he drove exactly to the place he was known to like in Lewisburg. Obviously, since the map was in his office trash and he was long gone, he didn't need the map himself. He was probably giving the best route, or maybe a particular hotel address to a 3rd party. The unknown helper.
There were no hotels in Lewisburg, att. Where did this unknown helper come from? Ray was a brilliant man not known for needing a helper.
Another thing: IF he needed to print out a map to get to Lewisburg, then why didn't he need to have the map close at hand if he was that impaired?
Perhaps Ray forgot the map at his office or may have tossed it by mistake. I still don't understand a need for it when he'd been frequently to the SOS.
I'm sorry but the facts we are as certain as we can be of without being there do not fit your suppositions.
I'm not sure I understand this statement but I have a right to my own reasonable suppositions and speculations which are subject to changing without prior notification.
Also, the thing about being possibly depressed: The family and Ray's friends were trying at that time to GET his medical records and any Psych Records released to the next of kin. Probable cause to release such documents.
They looked long and hard for a physical or psychogenic cause for his decision to leave in a most orderly and covert way. He was a consummate intellectual man, and his name should not be sullied with unsubstantiated rumors that he had the devastating Lewy Body Dementia. It's VERY obvious they are extremely ill. I've studied the disease in Neuroscience. People are paranoid very early on, and do very unusual things before they are able to be diagnosed.
LBD patients aren't devastated until progression of the disease which can take two years or more. Robin Williams was not paranoid. He was quite healthy and still cycled on his bike. Nor has my sister experienced paranoia. However, very recently she has displayed an occasional sign of mild hallucinations.

Why would you think it's okay to consider my bright and talented sister who owned her own business for decades to be sullied with her diagnosis?
NONE of that applied to the visage and mental acuity of Ray Gricar in April, 2005, or prior. Just no evidence at all that he had a neurodegenerative disease, respectfully.
According to witnesses, the list of his unusual display of behavior as of, at least, March 8 are not fabrications.
 
" turning at one point to look at a Jeep speeding out of the employee's parking lot."

hmmm..considering ray drove crazy fast..it's interesting he would turn to look..was ray watching his
Uh, hot sex in a Mini Cooper, 2004-2005 sports package edition?
The car does not lend itself to such things. Go sit in one at a dealer's. Someone would get a room somewhere before they'd just about torture themselves in a small sports car.
Also, why would you assume that Ray would have to pick up a hooker or other sleaze in Lewisburg when he was a prominent person much closer to " home" with much less effort required?

Your mind can squirm all it wants to but this is out of left field and demeans the man you are writing such things about. :) He was a man of great integrity and he was highly respected, and greatly missed.


with all respect..I am not demeaning Ray's memory..I am trying to figure out what happened. he would not be the first Mr. Perfect to engage in this kind of behavior.

for sure mini coopers are small ..depending on what you are engaging in I guess.

apologies to those I have offended..but I only thought of the cigarette ash and thinking someone had to be inside his car...someone was in that car...100% without question.

maybe as has been said it was a red herring set by trickster Ray.

mOO
 
Minazoe, according to JKA, RFG did often stay after hours. Looking at some press comments he made while part time, it does looked like he did stay after hours.
 
wait , I know this sounds horrible..but what if the blonde was a hooker? what if she smoked in the car? what if this was a fantasy where he meets a blonde woman at an antique fair and has a liaison in a parking lot? wonder if was one of these men with elaborate sexual fantasies like this...think playing secretary, or sexy nurse....

did he have a secret phone?

my mind is going in many directions now. mOO

Lewisburg is not exactly a hooker hangout. I'm sure someone in the area would have sex for money, however. There are several houses that have windows facing the parking lot, not to mention a busy street.
 
15 April 2005
Ray Gricar

Here's opinions on how cold water temp effects life; how long it takes to die from cold waters. It didn't happen!
The main reason for death in cold water is due to the body’s reaction to heat loss and engaging in freezing water. Immersing in water with a temperature of 50°F (10°C) can cause death in just an hour. Thus, when the water temperature is already near the freezing point, death can occur in just 15 minutes.
Death can happen when your body temperature goes below 70. In dangerous weather conditions, this can take less than an hour. Death can happen faster if you fall through ice into freezing water below. It only takes 5 to 10 minutes in freezing temperatures with a wind chill factor.
Dec 20, 2016 · It only takes 5 to 10 minutes in freezing temperatures with a wind chill factor
Water in the Susquehanna River is cold and current's swift.
No one would jump into frigid cold water knowing they die within 7 minutes or until they painfully freeze to DEATH.

Just no. Too much pain involved from drowning, can't breathe, coughing, and freezing, shivering temps is too much. Entering a trash bin dumpster after swallowing pills and wait to be carried to the landfill is better.

Take a gentle walk into the park, enter the forest, open the mouth and use a gun or simply walk away.
Or take some pills under the moon and stars with a beer but being a solemn jumper in that River is terrifying for everyone to consider.

.
 
DeDee, there are several hotels in Lewisburg, but none in the immediate area of the SoS.

Yes, apologies. I misunderstood an earlier comment re: hotels in the area. What about the Unknown Helper? Is there a link to anything interesting that leads to this UH theory, other than healthy supposition and hopeful speculation?

Could we have foul play and someone else wanted the lappy and HD destroyed? Maybe but not that day? No, it was Ray as he'd been inquisitive with his coworkers about this topic from months prior. Erasure without a Trace.

No reason to mug DA Gricar over the HD bc he's deleting it anyway.

I don't think Ray found it an Emergency to damage the IT equipment and Vanish.

Ray awoke that April morning and perhaps thought: "Today is the day I walk away, literally and figuratively. Let me grab the ole lappy to delete work and my life's data as DA Ray Gricar."

It is far too much of a COINCIDENCE that Ray goes missing on the very same day those components are likely tossed.

Was the disappearance more from a result of encountering a bad actor? If so, over what?

What are the Odds of Ray Gricar going missing on the very same day his laptop and HD are likely thrown into the Susquehanna River and he's never seen again? There have been reported sightings of RG but none turned out to be helpful.
.
 
Snipped for empphasis.

Yes, apologies. I misunderstood an earlier comment re: hotels in the area. What about the Unknown Helper? Is there a link to anything interesting that leads to this UH theory, other than healthy supposition and hopeful speculation?

Like the Lord High Executioner from the Mikado, "I've got a little list."

I've been referring as the inner circle, someone that would be trustworthy, loyal to RFG, and proximate to Lewisburg. A possible helper would be on the list. It includes all of his S.O.'s from years gone by, his close friends, and past and current staff. That is about 30 people, at most. Two people are off that list, PEF and Mark Smith, the 1st Deputy DA. We know where they were.

Could we have foul play and someone else wanted the lappy and HD destroyed? Maybe but not that day? No, it was Ray as he'd been inquisitive with his coworkers about this topic from months prior. Erasure without a Trace.

Nobody other than RFG would know what was on the laptop, unless it put on in his/her presence that day. If someone, other than RFG, wanted the destroy the data on the laptop, they would have no idea if it had been copied.

It is possible that RFG was planning to go to Lewisburg and thought that it would be a great place to toss laptop. He got their early, toss it, then met whomever he was meeting. If this was foul play, tossing the laptop and drive might be incidental to the trip.
 
Snipped for empphasis.

Like the Lord High Executioner from the Mikado, "I've got a little list."

I've been referring as the inner circle, someone that would be trustworthy, loyal to RFG, and proximate to Lewisburg. A possible helper would be on the list. It includes all of his S.O.'s from years gone by, his close friends, and past and current staff. That is about 30 people, at most. Two people are off that list, PEF and Mark Smith, the 1st Deputy DA. We know where they were.

Nobody other than RFG would know what was on the laptop, unless it put on in his/her presence that day. If someone, other than RFG, wanted the destroy the data on the laptop, they would have no idea if it had been copied.

It is possible that RFG was planning to go to Lewisburg and thought that it would be a great place to toss laptop. He got their early, toss it, then met whomever he was meeting. If this was foul play, tossing the laptop and drive might be incidental to the trip.

The DA should have as much data stored, work related and personal data, on the laptop as any other DA att. prob more, he's detail oriented, bc that's Ray.
During the time period the laptop HD was issued to him, henceforth, until it was discovered along the SR in 2 separate pieces, was when he was gatekeeper of classified files, photos and docs.
He kept the laptop securely tucked in his office, then later at home.

Ray wanted to travel and explore America, by car on backroads, to visit his daughter in an extended vacation after retiring.

The last curious evening Ray spent inside his office before the vanishing the next day is key. There's several hours in his office working late yet there was no note left behind, no particular instructions or work assignments for a new DA to step in and take over if a vacancy should suddenly become available, during an absence of a vanished DA.

The book on his desk's open to display the procedure for replacing a MIA DA. Does he want that clue to inform us and his boss: he's done; get another one?

Allegedly, there's a printed map to Lewisburg in the office trash.
His awesome red and white mini's found in Lewisburg the next day.
Mini's locked without his personal items: the keys, his sunglasses or wallet inside.

That pesky cigarette ash is an ever present lit beacon bc it, for sure, does not fit and belong inside of Ray's mini. Has he ever smoked cigarettes to our collective knowledge? The interior smelled offensively of fresh smoke.
It doesn't fit; you must acquit.
.
 
Snipped for empphasis.
It is possible that RFG was planning to go to Lewisburg and thought that it would be a great place to toss laptop. He got their early, toss it, then met whomever he was meeting. If this was foul play, tossing the laptop and drive might be incidental to the trip.
ebm

Absolutely, he had planned the trip and had several leisurely hours in the morning around the house and whatnot. Ray does not write one word on a pad for Patty. That makes me sad for her if he intentionally did not have a final goodbye for her.

Why are you saying Ray had a meeting in Lewisburg that fateful day? I wasn't aware anyone was coordinating with Ray on the last day when he's scooting about at the SOS. Where does this knowledge come from?

The attractive lady spotted with Ray that day at SOS was likely a tourist, imo. They had no prior knowledge of one another, iow. She was likely not handing him, illegally obtained or otherwise, travel docs such as a passport or giving him a faux ID and driver's license or keys to a car she stashed in the parking lot for his get away. They were not eloping.
 
Maybe no one try that. Remember that RFG's brother, Roy, did just that.

I wonder what it was about Roy's life or death that made Ray Gricar believe and feel strongly that his brother's death was not by suicide?

Yes, Roy apparently chose to enter the Miami River. It didn't read as if he had a sad or unfulfilling life though. Depression is a lack of a hormone, maybe, it's genetic, too.
Endorphins help! Live Laugh Love
 
I am saying that RFG could have been going to meet someone, an unknown person. It would have been a clandestine meeting.
 
Cambria County judge among senior officials who ignored reports of sex abuse in Altoona diocese
Updated Jan 05, 2019; Posted Mar 08, 2016
...
The letter is dated Sept. 25, 2002.

It was written by an attorney whose clients, all of them victims of sexual molestation and rape at the hands of priests from the Altoona-Johnstown Diocese, were seeking some form of redress - either criminal charges or at the very least an investigation into their allegations.

Bringing JJs data forward from 2016
PA - PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

WS RAY GRICAR.png

In 2002, a letter detailing information on clergy sex abuse in the Altoona-Johnstown Diocese was sent to three senior law officials, including Cambria County Judge David Tulowitzki (left), who was then District Attorney; Karen Arnold (right), then-Assistant District Attorney in Centre County; and Catherine Miller, then-Assistant District Attorney in Blair County.
"authorities to prosecute or investigate allegations of clergy sex abuse further enabled more than 50 priests to molest hundreds of children over four decades across the diocese of Altoona-Johnstown."
The grand jury report, released last week by Attorney General Kathleen Kane, details the findings of a two-year investigation into allegations of child sexual abuse at the hands of priests and church leaders in the Diocese of Altoona-Johnstown. The 147-page report laid out in graphic accounts details of horrific abuse of hundreds of children
 
Speaking of Hotels! This one is historical.

Lewisburg Hotel

Established in 1834, this elegantly restored and remodeled hotel graces the main street of downtown Lewisburg, Pennsylvania. With easy access of the Pennsylvania Canal, the Old East-West Turnpike and two major railroads, the hotel provided accommodations for generations of travelers.
Lewisburg Hotel – A Lewisburg Landmark Since 1834
 
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