Parental rights vs. child safety (Was there any reason Josh was awarded visits?)

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
It is one of several options at the links. Why do you think the UN prop is bad? TIA

The older I get, the more I forget. It's been a few years since I researched this so I'm going to go over it again before commenting but I remember there being all kinds of reasons I was against this at that time.
 
Thank you. The single MOST effective tool to fight DV is education. It breaks my heart that Susan and her boys could not get to a shelter. I do believe that josh was poisoning her and keeping her constantly 'on alert'. When I read that Susan had to call a friend to borrow 2 hot dogs to feed her boys, it hurt. She did her best and sadly gave her all in that battle, so did her boys. I truly hope that in October, Domestic Violence Month, Susan and her 2 boys are depicted with their red cutouts, either in SLC or Puyallup. http://www.silentwitness.net/

Domestic Violence is not pretty, nor is it socially acceptable and it CAN NOT be hidden.


1-800-799-SAFE is the hotline number; you may not need it but you may know someone who will.

February is National Teen Dating Violence and Awareness Month.
http://www.thehotline.org/

To Jacie, Since you are a DV advocate, maybe you can give me some insight on a few things I have been thinking about.

I have not read anywhere that Susan claimed she or the boys were being physically abused. Would a shelter take them? I was at a shelter for a night way back in 1974 but my then husband was beating me up on our front lawn and LE was called. I wondered why she did not leave and live with a family member. That would certainly be better than a shelter.

I wonder if Susan was physically abused and did not tell even her best friends. I wonder what made her so afraid of JP that she allowed him to rule over her. I can understand if he were beating her.

I wonder if any of her friends that knew those boys did not have proper food considered calling CPS. I am no friend of CPS,( never had anything to do with them personally but have read horror stories) but I wonder if Susan would have recieved info on resources that could have helped her if a friend would have called CPS and reported that the kids were not being fed well.
 
To Jacie, Since you are a DV advocate, maybe you can give me some insight on a few things I have been thinking about.

I have not read anywhere that Susan claimed she or the boys were being physically abused. Would a shelter take them? I was at a shelter for a night way back in 1974 but my then husband was beating me up on our front lawn and LE was called. I wondered why she did not leave and live with a family member. That would certainly be better than a shelter.

I wonder if Susan was physically abused and did not tell even her best friends. I wonder what made her so afraid of JP that she allowed him to rule over her. I can understand if he were beating her.

I wonder if any of her friends that knew those boys did not have proper food considered calling CPS. I am no friend of CPS,( never had anything to do with them personally but have read horror stories) but I wonder if Susan would have recieved info on resources that could have helped her if a friend would have called CPS and reported that the kids were not being fed well.
I'm not Jacie but I'll weigh in anyway...she'll do better than me when she gets here though! :)

Verbal, emotional, psychological, financial and sexual abuse are domestic violence. DV shelters take in women and children who have experienced any/all forms of DV - however, it is more likely women who experience physical abuse will be offered resources and information because the other abuses are so much more difficult to identify readily.

Most women who leave do so having never entered a shelter. The reasons women stay in an abusive relationship, even sometimes having ample resources to leave, are as varied as the day is long. In my case I lacked the financial resources necessary, was concerned he may be granted visitation and/or custody where I could not control/limit his influence, believed society, courts and family would view me as the guilty party and even worried my abuser may commit suicide. I was also in very deep denial for the majority of my relationship - fully believing all the problems of my marriage were my fault. If only I could refrain from behavior that upset him, if only I could be smarter, if only I could change my hair, if only I were a more understanding wife, if only...believing the issues were fully mine I just kept trying to change myself.

All very common psychological attacks of an emotional abuser. I would hazard a guess Josh used Susan's religion against her in this respect as well. As an aside there are also usually physical elements even to emotional abuse without directly being battery - threatening to hit; brandishing weapons; throwing things at the victim; smashing furniture; shoving; being rough sexually, destroying the victims property, etc.

Here's a link with some great information on some of the reasons people stay in abusive relationships: http://stopviolence.com/domviol/WhySheSometimesStays.pdf
 
To Jacie, Since you are a DV advocate, maybe you can give me some insight on a few things I have been thinking about.

I have not read anywhere that Susan claimed she or the boys were being physically abused. Would a shelter take them? I was at a shelter for a night way back in 1974 but my then husband was beating me up on our front lawn and LE was called. I wondered why she did not leave and live with a family member. That would certainly be better than a shelter.

I wonder if Susan was physically abused and did not tell even her best friends. I wonder what made her so afraid of JP that she allowed him to rule over her. I can understand if he were beating her.

I wonder if any of her friends that knew those boys did not have proper food considered calling CPS. I am no friend of CPS,( never had anything to do with them personally but have read horror stories) but I wonder if Susan would have recieved info on resources that could have helped her if a friend would have called CPS and reported that the kids were not being fed well.

Just to add to BritsKate's excellent post:

When I read that Susan had a journal at work and had opened a seperate checking account I believed that she was receiving guidance that is in line with DV counseling. We don't know AND we don't need to know the exact details of Susan's efforts, at this time it is a moot point. Susan did what she felt was right for her and her situation.

Not having access to account/computer passwords, having to grow a garden to feed her boys nutritious foods, having to ride a bicycle to work [in an area that is not a safe place to ride a bike] and not having access to her money are all signs of control. The fact that josh spent thousands of dollars on refrigerator magnets, as well as a motor for his own bicycle shows where his interests lay. Susan was the mother of his children and yet he made her physically push her limits to provide for them while his ersatz job history showed that he was lazy and self-centered. IMHO

I can't and won't speak to what friends were aware of.

I believe that Susan had a kind and loving nature; having never met her it is just my opinion. I also believe that josh's actions were insidious and may have well been benign to the outside world. At this point in time, I don't believe we will know the actual COD, when Susan's remains are found and this is confirmed, UNLESS he did poison her and there is evidence in hair strands or bone.

I have not read anywhere that Susan claimed she or the boys were being physically abused. Would a shelter take them? I want to address this part of your comment. Some go into a shelter never having been physically assaulted. One particular case: a young girl who showed up at the shelter on her 18th birthday, she felt that she lived in a restrictive household and wanted out. It was better for her to be in a shelter than on the streets. Another lady, a grandmother, who suddenly had custody of 4 grandchildren all under 10yo; help was given with parenting, housing, legal and dealing with the aftermath of living with a mentally abusive, drug addicted daughter who abandoned the children.

Not all abuse is a constant event; in my case it was a one time event that resulted in head injuries similar to shaken baby syndrome, including the eye injuries that I still have damage from, as well as other permanent injuries. I do believe that what happened that night in Susan's home was the culmination of a time period of josh 'stewing' and then violently erupting. While we don't have 100% confirmation of Susan's death, I do believe that if she had lived she would have gone to a shelter or to family with her sons. josh has proven that he was unpredictable and violent; whatever happened the night of the camping trip was as finite as his final acts toward his sons. It is interesting, from a clinical view, that he chose to both chop the boys with an ax and then set fire to the house and himself.
 
There are already Mandated Reporting Laws in place in every State! LE has an obligation to "protect the children" and report all of the pertinent information regarding child abuse/neglect (CA/N). Somehow, I don't think making yet another law or constitutional amendment is going to change anything. WVPD failed to 1) pick the children up in Utah - when they found the "toon-*advertiser censored*" after Susan went missing. 2) CPS doesn't appear to even be involved in Utah - why NOT? 3) Utah LE didn't forward pertinent info on CA/N to Washington - even when they met face-to-face most recently. 4) The info shared was so old now that Washington could potentially argue that it was not a current threat to the kids (this is a stretch but potential), 5) WVPD was more worried about tying a neat bow on top of their case "package" than they were worried about protecting children. 6) CPS in Washington's case was only based upon Gpa SP's *advertiser censored*/uncle answer door nekkid. Take those risks away and the children are safe . . . right? move the kids to a "sham" house and what is the problem?
 
There are already Mandated Reporting Laws in place in every State! LE has an obligation to "protect the children" and report all of the pertinent information regarding child abuse/neglect (CA/N). Somehow, I don't think making yet another law or constitutional amendment is going to change anything. WVPD failed to 1) pick the children up in Utah - when they found the "toon-*advertiser censored*" after Susan went missing. 2) CPS doesn't appear to even be involved in Utah - why NOT? 3) Utah LE didn't forward pertinent info on CA/N to Washington - even when they met face-to-face most recently. 4) The info shared was so old now that Washington could potentially argue that it was not a current threat to the kids (this is a stretch but potential), 5) WVPD was more worried about tying a neat bow on top of their case "package" than they were worried about protecting children. 6) CPS in Washington's case was only based upon Gpa SP's *advertiser censored*/uncle answer door nekkid. Take those risks away and the children are safe . . . right? move the kids to a "sham" house and what is the problem?

What a heartbreaking mess!!

This case has broken my faith on so many levels. I don't know what could of stopped JP short of being in jail.

It has definately shown many areas that need to be addressed. There are overworked/under funded CPS/LE and the list continues to grow. Information not shared between LE etc etc.

If there is one positive I truly pray that changes are made to prevent this from happening again.
 
Quoting myself to bring this over from the media thread today.

"Ensuring the welfare of children and families requires vigilance, courage . . .

The co-occurrence of domestic violence and child maltreatment is well-documented. Studies show an overlap of 30 to 60 percent nationally. Similarly, custody disputes often include allegations of domestic violence, neglect and child sexual abuse. These cases are complex, contentious and challenging — both factually and emotionally. . . .

Investigators, caseworkers and judges typically do not have the resources (time, training, tools) to intervene effectively with the Josh Powells of the world. And, while Josh Powell's final act was extraordinarily heinous, his behavior in the years preceding it was not that unusual."


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/avantgo/2017761056.html
 
I believe Washington State Ombudsman Services are conducting the Child Fatality review currently. We should probably have access to their findings within the next 2-3 months. The final report will have recommendations for "lessons learned" and how these children fell through the cracks of the system.
 
I believe Washington State Ombudsman Services are conducting the Child Fatality review currently. We should probably have access to their findings within the next 2-3 months. The final report will have recommendations for "lessons learned" and how these children fell through the cracks of the system.
I do not see how the Powell boys fell though the system. Susan did not report any child abuse by her husband. Her parents did not report any signs of abuse. Susan gave Josh a deadline to become an active LDS priesthood holder. It's not like CPS took those kids away from Susan and Josh due to physical abuse and then gave them back knowing they were not being properly cared for. I think Susan focused too much on her religion.
 
I do not see how the Powell boys fell though the system. Susan did not report any child abuse by her husband. Her parents did not report any signs of abuse. Susan gave Josh a deadline to become an active LDS priesthood holder. It's not like CPS took those kids away from Susan and Josh due to physical abuse and then gave them back knowing they were not being properly cared for. I think Susan focused too much on her religion.

I think the Powells focused too much on punishing Susan because of her religion. From what I can see, her religion did nothing to harm her. Josh did.
 
I do not see how the Powell boys fell though the system. Susan did not report any child abuse by her husband. Her parents did not report any signs of abuse. Susan gave Josh a deadline to become an active LDS priesthood holder. It's not like CPS took those kids away from Susan and Josh due to physical abuse and then gave them back knowing they were not being properly cared for. I think Susan focused too much on her religion.

I was specifically talking about the CPS investigation in Washington State. Susan was already missing . . . . to my knowledge there was no CPS involvement in Utah - however. . . . IMO . . . Utah CPS should have picked up those boys when his wife went missing while taking them on a midnight camping trip in the freezing weather. (When Josh's stories didn't add up and he placed the kids and wife in danger).

With all due respect . . . I think the church may have been the only thing that Susan had to escape the madness of the Powell clan. Between her church and her work . . . she felt a sense of belonging.
 
I was specifically talking about the CPS investigation in Washington State. Susan was already missing . . . . to my knowledge there was no CPS involvement in Utah - however. . . . IMO . . . Utah CPS should have picked up those boys when his wife went missing while taking them on a midnight camping trip in the freezing weather. (When Josh's stories didn't add up and he placed the kids and wife in danger).

With all due respect . . . I think the church may have been the only thing that Susan had to escape the madness of the Powell clan. Between her church and her work . . . she felt a sense of belonging.

I can imagine that Susan's church was a comfort to her. I cannot find the reference now, but I remember reading a statement by one of her friends that it was her faith that kept her in her marriage when her friends were telling Susan to leave Josh. I can understand that. Knowing what we all know now, yes Utah CPS should have taken Susan's kids after Josh's stupid camping trip story. But, on the other hand, there have been cases of women disappearing without their kids and later turning up alive. So, how are authorities supposed to know when to take the kids or not? I think by law, since there was never any documentation of abuse of those kids that LE could not take them based on the camping story.

Is WVPD ever going to make a statement on what was found on the bedspread or charred wood?

IMO, this whole case messed up. I would love to read what LE and lawyers say about this case but I know they probably cannot comment.
 
I can imagine that Susan's church was a comfort to her. I cannot find the reference now, but I remember reading a statement by one of her friends that it was her faith that kept her in her marriage when her friends were telling Susan to leave Josh. I can understand that. Knowing what we all know now, yes Utah CPS should have taken Susan's kids after Josh's stupid camping trip story. But, on the other hand, there have been cases of women disappearing without their kids and later turning up alive. So, how are authorities supposed to know when to take the kids or not? I think by law, since there was never any documentation of abuse of those kids that LE could not take them based on the camping story.

Is WVPD ever going to make a statement on what was found on the bedspread or charred wood?

IMO, this whole case messed up. I would love to read what LE and lawyers say about this case but I know they probably cannot comment.




BBM

Here, here. Things are missing for sure...

IMO
 
If a link shows up as ******** it is not an approved site to link to here at websleuths. Just an fyi
 
I'll go ahead and predict that we're in for a loooong time with very limited (if any) information. A possible law suit, public outrage, and Utah's (not just WVCPD) scrambling activities will put a hush, hush on it all. Hasn't that happened, already?

Sad, I know.

Wait, I just thought about SP's upcoming trial. Now, maybe something will come from that...hope so.

IMO
 
I just saw a segment on TODAY and Lisa Ling has a documentary about Josh Powell coming out Tuesday on E! LL interviews the psycologist who ordered Josh to take a psycho sexual exam and some clips were shown. It should be interesting to say the least. The Dr said that the images from JP's computer were very lifelike and depicted incest. There is no link on TODAY's site but here is the E! lineup for Tue and the documentary is at 8pm ET.

http://www.eonline.com/shows/schedule

(I hope I put this in the correct thread)

wm
 
Obviously I think the children's safety should trump or at least equal the legal standing of parental rights, but I think there is also the reality that if you have someone who has no boundaries and no value for human life and is willing to die in the process there is little you can do (other than arrest them and risk your murder case, but maybe sometimes that is worth the risk).

Realistically if the [Chuck & Judy Cox] had the boys this story would probably include [Susan's parents] in the death count. If a foster family had them they might be dead, or a child protective worker.

Even if a neutral location had been chosen were there going to be armed guards there willing to shoot Josh in front of his kids. When an unarmed Josh grabbed on of his boys and killed them with his hands what is anyone going to do in that situation?

When the rules only apply to one side of the equation evil intentions have an unfair advantage. I hate to say it but if I found myself in this kind of a situation and had to flee a psychopath with my children, going underground or taking all the lessons learned from the men who have walked free with "missing spouses"..... well he might be missing before I rolled the dice with the court system. Just saying.

PS- Just proofread my post and and had visions of the thread discussing my missing spouse and all the links to my thousands of posts and what clues they might provide to find the body. LOL. Not really funny in the truest sense but it would be a thread worth reading!
 

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
138
Guests online
1,633
Total visitors
1,771

Forum statistics

Threads
602,559
Messages
18,142,542
Members
231,436
Latest member
Quantum-Dark
Back
Top