Poll: Will this case ever be solved?

[tezi]

That has nothing to do with going to a grand jury for the murder of Jonebenet. HE can in fact do that at any time. Just because the GJ decided that the first time does not mean that is what the current GJ would find. That old indictment has no merit nothing to do with new charges.

BBM: A lot of people, myself included do NOT think that JBR was murdered. It was an accident that was covered up. It became murder when certain people (her parents) did not seek help for her.


JMO

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

BBM: A lot of people, myself included do NOT think that JBR was murdered. It was an accident that was covered up. It became murder when certain people (her parents) did not seek help for her.


JMO

This girl was murdered. There is no two ways about it. Whether it is First degree or second that is for the GJ to decide. But she was murdered no matter what.

 

[tezi]

This girl was murdered. There is no two ways about it. Whether it is First degree or second that is for the GJ to decide. But she was murdered no matter what.

Yes, it was a homicide. I am just not sure to what degree of murder or manslaughter it was.

Have a nice evening.

JMO

 

[questfortrue]

let us not forget that in addition to concluding that "you're going to find her body" the FBI advised BPD to "look to the parents"

this is who was murdered:

Lawrence Schiller's Perfect Murder, Perfect Town/kindle location 90

http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/Colorado/
7) (a) Where death or injury results, the following shall apply:
(I) When a person acts knowingly or recklessly and the child abuse results in death to the child, it is a class 2 felony except as provided in paragraph (c) of this subsection (7).
(c) When a person knowingly causes the death of a child who has not yet attained twelve years of age and the person committing the offense is one in a position of trust with respect to the child, such person commits the crime of murder in the first degree as described in section 18-3-102 (1) (f).

Don’t know if I’m alone in this opinion but how can child abuse resulting in death have only a 3-year statute of limitations?! DA Garnett said in his editorial he did ask his staff if there were any other charges which could be applied to this case, for which the statute of limitations had not run out. They apparently did not find any other charges to reactivate the case. So it’s officially a cold case.

No time limit on these crimes: murder, forgery, kidnapping, treason, and sex offense against a child such as incest. (If I understand this correctly and not to speculate too widely here, but if abuse at the hands of her brother, he was 6 months too young to be considered on sex offense charges. It isn’t the age of 10, but rather a 4 year age difference for it to be considered incest. If JR were shown to be involved with chronic molestation, then there exists a felony with no time limit for prosecution of the case.)

Kidnapping was the path to a prosecution in Kolar’s view in that JB’s body was moved into the WC. Then the charge of felony murder could be brought to bear. See [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8415713#post8415713"]Has the case fizzled a bit? - Page 2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame] for Cynic’s amazing gathering of information on this.

If considering this an RDI case, I believe it unlikely that the DA’s office would bring the charge of kidnapping. So, the only justice JB receives, dying at the hands of her family, if one is RDI, or by a monster, if IDI, will be people attempting to put the pieces together.

So, thank you, gramcracker, for the reminder of who this little girl was.

JMHO.

 

[chlban]

Clearly the Statute of Limitations precludes the GJ indictments being revived against John.

As for murder, I personally think the likely Murderer (although I agree it basically started as an accident and became Murder only with the staging) is dead.

The person I would consider the second most likely perpetrator cannot be charged, because of his age at the time of the crime.

The person I consider the third most likely is John although I am aware of other theories that point to him. However, even if it was him, this is obviously not a case that can ever be prosectued.

We cannot agree here which Ramsey did it. There is no way on earth a jury could convict John beyond a "reasonable doubt" and he is the only one who could be charged. I have no "reasonable doubt" that it was one of the three. I do, however, have plenty of reasonable doubt which one.

Unfortunately they cannot hold a trial to determine if it was IDI or RDI. That, I believe could be won.

The problem is, and IMO has always been, it cannot be determined which Ramsey actually struck the fatal blow, who covered up, etc. Unless one of the two people who were in that house and are still alive decide to tell us, we will never know.

Even then, I would bet some of the IDI's would still argue the point.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Clearly the Statute of Limitations precludes the GJ indictments being revived against John.

As for murder, I personally think the likely Murderer (although I agree it basically started as an accident and became Murder only with the staging) is dead.

The person I would consider the second most likely perpetrator cannot be charged, because of his age at the time of the crime.

The person I consider the third most likely is John although I am aware of other theories that point to him. However, even if it was him, this is obviously not a case that can ever be prosectued.

We cannot agree here which Ramsey did it. There is no way on earth a jury could convict John beyond a "reasonable doubt" and he is the only one who could be charged. I have no "reasonable doubt" that it was one of the three. I do, however, have plenty of reasonable doubt which one.

Unfortunately they cannot hold a trial to determine if it was IDI or RDI. That, I believe could be won.

The problem is, and IMO has always been, it cannot be determined which Ramsey actually struck the fatal blow, who covered up, etc. Unless one of the two people who were in that house and are still alive decide to tell us, we will never know.

Even then, I would bet some of the IDI's would still argue the point.

Interesting but the Indictment has John more responsible than Patsy.. In that it says HE is the one that ASSISTED...

Hers just says she allowed her child to be abused which lead to the death.

I think that the grand jury had no dang idea what happened. Even after all the evidence. I think that a new GJ would not hand down any indictment against either of them. And that is why the current DA won't impanel one.

I wish now that they released that part that they would release it all.

 

[questfortrue]

Clearly the Statute of Limitations precludes the GJ indictments being revived against John.

As for murder, I personally think the likely Murderer (although I agree it basically started as an accident and became Murder only with the staging) is dead.

The person I would consider the second most likely perpetrator cannot be charged, because of his age at the time of the crime.

The person I consider the third most likely is John although I am aware of other theories that point to him. However, even if it was him, this is obviously not a case that can ever be prosectued.

We cannot agree here which Ramsey did it. There is no way on earth a jury could convict John beyond a "reasonable doubt" and he is the only one who could be charged. I have no "reasonable doubt" that it was one of the three. I do, however, have plenty of reasonable doubt which one.

Unfortunately they cannot hold a trial to determine if it was IDI or RDI. That, I believe could be won.

The problem is, and IMO has always been, it cannot be determined which Ramsey actually struck the fatal blow, who covered up, etc. Unless one of the two people who were in that house and are still alive decide to tell us, we will never know.

Even then, I would bet some of the IDI's would still argue the point.

Pretty much agree a prosecution is extremely unlikely. But it seems the idea of felony murder and murder in the 1st are still confused concepts. Cynic explains this so much better but here goes: If a felony were committed (kidnapping, e.g.) and someone dies, then the felony murder rule could bring charges against the remaining adult in the household. It would not have to be proven that JR struck her or tied a ligature around her neck or pulled the ligature. That could still all be PR. One would just need to bring enough evidence that a felony was committed by an adult R, and the remaining adult R might face charges under the felony murder rule. I'd place a .1% of that happening. It seems to me that PR's death also complicates or even derails any kind of charges. moo

Not arguing anyone's theory of the perp(s) roles here. But just to clear up the concept of felony murder, since it seems people still confuse that charge with having to prove who did what. moo

 

[tezi]

Interesting but the Indictment has John more responsible than Patsy.. In that it says HE is the one that ASSISTED...

Hers just says she allowed her child to be abused which lead to the death.

I think that the grand jury had no dang idea what happened. Even after all the evidence. I think that a new GJ would not hand down any indictment against either of them. And that is why the current DA won't impanel one.

I wish now that they released that part that they would release it all.

BBM: WRONG! They were both indicted on the same charges.

Count VII: On or between December 25, and December 26, 1996, in Boulder County Colorado, Patricia Paugh Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly, and feloniously render assistance to to a person, with the intent to hinder, delay....

I am not going to type it all out, you can go read it.

Please stop spreading misinformation about the indictments, they both were indicted on the same two charges. You can read them just as well as I can.

Link: http://www.courts.state.co.us/Media/Opinions.cfm

Read all of Patsy's indictment....And all of John's. Both are indicted on two counts each.

 

[UKGuy]

Pretty much agree a prosecution is extremely unlikely. But it seems the idea of felony murder and murder in the 1st are still confused concepts. Cynic explains this so much better but here goes: If a felony were committed (kidnapping, e.g.) and someone dies, then the felony murder rule could bring charges against the remaining adult in the household. It would not have to be proven that JR struck her or tied a ligature around her neck or pulled the ligature. That could still all be PR. One would just need to bring enough evidence that a felony was committed by an adult R, and the remaining adult R might face charges under the felony murder rule. I'd place a .1% of that happening. It seems to me that PR's death also complicates or even derails any kind of charges. moo

Not arguing anyone's theory of the perp(s) roles here. But just to clear up the concept of felony murder, since it seems people still confuse that charge with having to prove who did what. moo

questfortrue,
IMO, this is where AH's role becomes a little clearer. His failure to charge any R meant the clock was running on the statute of limitations, never mind any consideration regarding culpability.

I reckon 1st Degree Murder charges should have been filed against all three residents.

With JonBenet being denied medical assistance, and no evidence of any intruder, along with her ligature strangulation must mean she was deliberately murdered.


.

 

[chlban]

Pretty much agree a prosecution is extremely unlikely. But it seems the idea of felony murder and murder in the 1st are still confused concepts. Cynic explains this so much better but here goes: If a felony were committed (kidnapping, e.g.) and someone dies, then the felony murder rule could bring charges against the remaining adult in the household. It would not have to be proven that JR struck her or tied a ligature around her neck or pulled the ligature. That could still all be PR. One would just need to bring enough evidence that a felony was committed by an adult R, and the remaining adult R might face charges under the felony murder rule. I'd place a .1% of that happening. It seems to me that PR's death also complicates or even derails any kind of charges. moo

Not arguing anyone's theory of the perp(s) roles here. But just to clear up the concept of felony murder, since it seems people still confuse that charge with having to prove who did what. moo

Interesting. I understand the concept that if I particpate in a crime and someone is killed I could be charged with Murder. If I participate in a Bank Robbery where someone is killed, although I did not fire a single shot, I can still be guilty of Murder.

What I guess I am missing is what felony would John have committed, if we use the PDI theory as an example? I could see him being guilty of some type
of accessory charge (although I am not personally convinced he was involved in the staging). But how could he be charged with Murder if, as an example, Patsy killed her, staged it, and he only became aware something was "off" as the morning wore on?

That seems pretty far fetched. How could he be responsible for the actions of his wife, if he had no idea what she was doing?

 

[otg]

(bbm)

BBM: WRONG! They were both indicted on the same charges.

Count VII: On or between December 25, and December 26, 1996, in Boulder County Colorado, Patricia Paugh Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly, and feloniously render assistance to to a person, with the intent to hinder, delay....

I am not going to type it all out, you can go read it.

Please stop spreading misinformation about the indictments, they both were indicted on the same two charges. You can read them just as well as I can.

Link: http://www.courts.state.co.us/Media/Opinions.cfm

Read all of Patsy's indictment....And all of John's. Both are indicted on two counts each.

Anyone who says otherwise is just plain wrong. The GJ had a list of possible charges for each person. If you compare the portions of the documents that were made public (http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/810052/ramsey-grand-jury-indictments.pdf), even the count numbers coincide with one another [Count IV (a) and Count VII] for each person true billed. The counts are worded exactly the same except for the name of the person charged.

Below is a list of charges that were (as close as I can figure) possibly considered that might be some of the missing numbers in the list of charges. If not enough jurors voted for each one, they were not released to the public. (The judge in this case decided that only the True Billed charges were an official act of the GJ -- even though the foreman's signature was required on each count.) In each main count, there is the possibility of the associated crime of Conspiracy and Accessory if the accused did not act alone. That is what Count VII is (Accessory) on each of the parents.

Murder in the first degree

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime
​

Felony murder

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime
​

Manslaughter

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime
​

Child abuse resulting in death

Conspiracy to commit (Child abuse resulting in death)

Accessory to crime (Child abuse resulting in death)
​

False reporting to authorities - Providing false information

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime
​

Concealing death

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime
​

Abuse of a corpse

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime
​

Contributing to the delinquency of a minor
(Unlawfully and feloniously induced, aided, or encouraged a child to violate any state law namely: False Reporting to Authorities - Providing False Information)

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime
​

Contributing to the delinquency of a minor
(Unlawfully and feloniously induced, aided, or encouraged a child to violate any state law namely: Sexual Assault)

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime
​

Contributing to the delinquency of a minor
(Unlawfully and feloniously induced, aided, or encouraged a child to violate any state law namely: Incest)

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime​

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

BBM: WRONG! They were both indicted on the same charges.

Count VII: On or between December 25, and December 26, 1996, in Boulder County Colorado, Patricia Paugh Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly, and feloniously render assistance to to a person, with the intent to hinder, delay....

I am not going to type it all out, you can go read it.

Please stop spreading misinformation about the indictments, they both were indicted on the same two charges. You can read them just as well as I can.

Link: http://www.courts.state.co.us/Media/Opinions.cfm

Read all of Patsy's indictment....And all of John's. Both are indicted on two counts each.

You are correct. I just read it again. When I copied them I must have not copied all 4 pages separately.. I have two copies of the first 2 pages. Apologies!
It was not misinformation. It was a mistake.

 

[questfortrue]

Interesting. I understand the concept that if I particpate in a crime and someone is killed I could be charged with Murder. If I participate in a Bank Robbery where someone is killed, although I did not fire a single shot, I can still be guilty of Murder.

What I guess I am missing is what felony would John have committed, if we use the PDI theory as an example? I could see him being guilty of some type
of accessory charge (although I am not personally convinced he was involved in the staging). But how could he be charged with Murder if, as an example, Patsy killed her, staged it, and he only became aware something was "off" as the morning wore on?

That seems pretty far fetched. How could he be responsible for the actions of his wife, if he had no idea what she was doing?

Great question and I’m not an attorney who has the answer for that. But, if you’re supposing that PDI (all of it, including concealing JB’s body) while JR slept upstairs, I’d agree I don’t see how felony murder could apply. Same with BDI, if he did it all, including moving her body, then game over.

Apparently the GJ saw enough to charge JR with “participation” in the crime. What the GJ saw, IDK, but there was enough there to have JR included either as a perp or as a participant in the cover-up, which might include the kidnapping felony of moving JB’s body. But . . .I totally agree, if it all could be blamed on PR and/or BR, then felony murder might not even be a consideration. moo

 

[chlban]

(snipped & bbm)You probably think that, chlban, because you stopped looking into it before the new information came out about the Russian mafia working with the inhabitants from the planet Nibiru to try and stop the U.S. space program, because none of them wanted JFK to complete the moon landing and then be able to go on to Nibiru. :giggle:

LOL. Yes, I have to admit I did miss that one.....If only I had known!

 

[gramcracker]

I think we can't agree on which RDI(s) because we're working with only a very small portion of the evidence. I think we could make a decision PDQ if we had access to all of the evidence

(but you don't need a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows)

 

[Nom de plume]

I think we can't agree on which RDI(s) because we're working with only a very small portion of the evidence. I think we could make a decision PDQ if we had access to all of the evidence

(but you don't need a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows)

ITA! If KK is correct, there are over 40,000 pages and 1500 pieces of evidence. We have the list of evidence taken from the house, so what makes up the other 1500 pieces? Bet I've got a pretty good idea, and if I'm correct, no one will ever see them.

 

[dazeerae]

ITA! If KK is correct, there are over 40,000 pages and 1500 pieces of evidence. We have the list of evidence taken from the house, so what makes up the other 1500 pieces? Bet I've got a pretty good idea, and if I'm correct, no one will ever see them.

This is cryptic, to me at least, & intriguing. Would you mind elaborating?

 

[Nom de plume]

This is cryptic, to me at least, & intriguing. Would you mind elaborating?

Pictures...illegal ones.

 

[tezi]

You are correct. I just read it again. When I copied them I must have not copied all 4 pages separately.. I have two copies of the first 2 pages. Apologies!
It was not misinformation. It was a mistake.

BBM: Thank you for saying this. However, the indictments are or should be common knowledge for posters here. I get upset when there is misinformation or downright manipulation of the facts concerning the indictments. John and Patsy were indicted on the same two charges.

JMO

 

[tezi]

(bbm)
Anyone who says otherwise is just plain wrong. The GJ had a list of possible charges for each person. If you compare the portions of the documents that were made public (http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/810052/ramsey-grand-jury-indictments.pdf), even the count numbers coincide with one another [Count IV (a) and Count VII] for each person true billed. The counts are worded exactly the same except for the name of the person charged.

Below is a list of charges that were (as close as I can figure) possibly considered that might be some of the missing numbers in the list of charges. If not enough jurors voted for each one, they were not released to the public. (The judge in this case decided that only the True Billed charges were an official act of the GJ -- even though the foreman's signature was required on each count.) In each main count, there is the possibility of the associated crime of Conspiracy and Accessory if the accused did not act alone. That is what Count VII is (Accessory) on each of the parents.

Murder in the first degree

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime
​

Felony murder

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime
​

Manslaughter

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime
​

Child abuse resulting in death

Conspiracy to commit (Child abuse resulting in death)

Accessory to crime (Child abuse resulting in death)
​

False reporting to authorities - Providing false information

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime
​

Concealing death

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime
​

Abuse of a corpse

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime
​

Contributing to the delinquency of a minor
(Unlawfully and feloniously induced, aided, or encouraged a child to violate any state law namely: False Reporting to Authorities - Providing False Information)

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime
​

Contributing to the delinquency of a minor
(Unlawfully and feloniously induced, aided, or encouraged a child to violate any state law namely: Sexual Assault)

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime
​

Contributing to the delinquency of a minor
(Unlawfully and feloniously induced, aided, or encouraged a child to violate any state law namely: Incest)

Conspiracy to commit

Accessory to crime​

Amen, otg! I think that some have an agenda to smear anyone who dares say anything wrong about the "sainted Ramseys." Anything that points to them is just dismissed with a wave of a hand, and the tDNA "evidence" is immediately thrown in our faces about how there was an intruder. It's hard to keep my temper in check when dealing with crap like that. Thank you otg for helping me keep what little bit of sanity I have!

JMO