Possible Connections

[siriunsun]

Supposedly the Army lost them.

Hmmm........does the army lose things like that? What about before she enlisted?

 

[Richard]

The big questions would be, "Was he a killer then at age __ ? Was he that organized? Did he then have the means, the experience, the assistance, etc?"

Say What?! Where was the killer at age___?! Honestly.......who cares how old RAW or LLW was when suspected of being involved?

If you read the paragraph just above the one you quoted, you will note that I was speaking in general terms about cold cases such as child abductions. I was not refering to Lloyd or Richard Welch.

The point I was making is that when considering someone - anyone - as a potential suspect in a dated case, you have to consider who that person was at the time of the crime. The age of a person at the time in question could be a factor which would rule him out or make him a less likely suspect.

But to answer your question regarding Lloyd's age at the time: Lloyd Welch certainly has a record of child molestation, violence, rape, and burglary - known because of his later convictions in the 1980's and 1990's. But in 1975, he had NO such record. He was 18 years old. He did not have a drivers license or a car. Was he capable of masterminding a double abduction? If he is charged with anything regarding the Lyon sisters, NONE of his later crimes could be mentioned in a trial. Case law would be cited to exclude it or to move for a mistrial if mentioned.

The age of Thomas Welch (11 years old in 1975) would also be a very important factor in the case. Lloyd told police that Thomas was present in the car with the Lyon sisters. Was he involved? If so, to what extent? Was he just a witness? Was he even there? Regardless of anything he may have done since 1975, his age (in 1975) alone would probably be reason enough for prosecutors to NOT charge him with anything. And his age at the time would be a factor to consider should he be called as a witness.

Richard Welch was about 33 years old in 1975. He has no known criminal record.

 

[siriunsun]

Remember the ever-increasing number of priests who commit various crimes against children and re-think whatever it is you are thinking about prior criminal records and prosecution. It's more than possible for a person without a criminal record to present with a motive for a crime, and police know it.

 

[Richard]

My comment was meant more as a general observation, not a criticism of this thread. I'd agree it is likely some of the cases are related.

The criticism of jurisdiction problems seems like something that might have applied long ago but if a police officer goes to another area to get information today it would be doubtful there would be any difficulty. As for connecting cases that happen across wide areas, that would be the responsibility of the state police or FBI. There are probably databases with features of crimes and full time people entering new crimes by feature.

Regarding the Lyon case specifically, do you think the Welch confession is accurate? There seem to be details that could be checked, such as the presence of a young relative in the car during the kidnapping.

For most crimes it would obviously seem necessary to consider changes in a person if you were to try to connect them to a previous crime. A person could have been a bank robber that went on to become a businessman. That would not be unusual. But specifically with child abduction, in order to guess how much the abductor might have changed you would first have to know for sure the motive of the abduction.

If the Lyon sisters were abducted for ransom, as unlikely as that might seem, the abductor might be hard to identify. He would be very unlikely to still be a kidnapper. Considering that they were the children of a local celebrity media figure it seems possible though.

If they were abducted for pedophilia though, it is likely the abductor is still a pedophile. In other words you would probably expect a person who was a pedophile in 1975 or whenever to still be one today.

The murder might be something that would fall in the first category. Most people are slower to violence as they age, including criminals.

Again, my comment, and specifically the part you requoted, were not meant to criticize your speculation which is simply presenting facts and looking for a connection. The criticism had to do with the irrational drama of reporters, including the article I cited, and police, including the example I gave. A lot of people in this kind of case seem to deliberately ignore and even misrepresent evidence.

I am reminded again of the Esar Met case. There are substantial examples of inaccurate information that police and others gave in order to make Mr Met look guilty. It is very similar to the Central Park jogger case and hundreds of other cases. In this case, the Lyon case, there seem to be some small problems with the Welch confession. I personally, at this point, like to see some sort of evidence beyond the sayso of law enforcement. Hopefully if the Welch confession is true then it will be made public in a credible way.

-----------------------

I did not take any offense in your posts. I think that you make some very good points.

Your mention of someone changing in the years following a crime is well stated. Later behavior might or might not be relevent, depending on whether or not that behavior can be linked to a specific crime, as when someone does things to cover up a murder or in some way mislead investigators. But simple changes in lifestyle or even a life of increasingly violent crime might not be associated with a given cold case. It might be a clue to police investigators, but not necessarily admissable evidence in a trial.

Testimony and evidence presented during a trial has to be specific to the charges made. For example, if someone is charged with abduction of two girls in 1975, testimony about the defendant's convictions for later crimes is inadmisable. Convictions for crimes prior to 1975 are also inadmissable if not connected with the case and specific charges at hand. The trial has to be on the merits of the case and specifically on the charges against the defendant. Mention of misconduct not charged could be grounds for mistrial or appeal.

If a person is convicted of charges stemming from a 1975 crime, the trial moves into the sentencing phase to determine what kind of punishment is appropriate. At that time, other convictions for crimes before that 1975 case acould be presented for consideration, but convictions for misconduct committed AFTER the 1975 offenses would normally be excluded from consideration by the Jury. This is based on the premise (however odd it might sound) that a person might not have become a (fill in the blank: pedophile, killer, rapist, etc) until AFTER 1975. Mistrials have been declared and convictions overturned because of such errorrs in presentation of evidence.

When it comes to Law Enforcement and Police investigations of Old Cases, a disadvantage is that as time goes by, trails grow cold, witnesses move away or die, memories fade. On the other hand, a cold case investigator has the advantage of developing potential suspects based on subsequent criminal activity. Looking at a known pedophile and tracing him back to where he was on a given date, and studying what his later MO was, who his victims were, etc can assist in identifying him as a person of interest or potential suspect in a cold case.

Some criminal behavior is usually of a repetative or cyclical nature. That is criminals might tend to repeat a type of crime over and over with some sort of pattern, similarity and and shedule. Those who target children or who are sex offenders are usually included in this lot. Their crimes might not be exact duplicates of eachother, but often have some sort of feature (a signature of sorts) in common.

As you point out, police jurisdiction problems are probably not as serious or divisive today as in the past. Internet and computers have certainly improved things since the late 1990's. A good example is the Amber Alert system.
But when it comes to older or "cold" cases, many of those have been filed away in paper files, lost, or forgotten as time has passed. Many times, a police department has no present knowledge of one of their own past cases. With so many old unsolved cases on the books in their own department, investigators often do not make an effort to look into the cases of another jurisdiction, and many of those cases are just not available as yet in any kind of sortable data base.

In regard to my thoughts on Lloyd Welch's statements, I would really need to see them in their origional form rather than through the filters of LE warrant requests. Each and every element of them would have to be checked for veracity and accuracy. That would only be for a start. Also, how have those statements changed or been added to since 1975? What is Lloyd's mental condition? What is his track record regarding truth telling? He is not the first or only person to claim intimate knowledge of the disappearance of Katherine and Sheila Lyon.

 

[siriunsun]

I think Lloyd Lee Welch's track record regarding truth telling is obvious. He did not go to prison for honest, upright behavior.

 

[FleaSpirit]

The age of Thomas Welch (11 years old in 1975) would also be a very important factor in the case. Lloyd told police that Thomas was present in the car with the Lyon sisters. Was he involved? If so, to what extent? Was he just a witness? Was he even there? Regardless of anything he may have done since 1975, his age (in 1975) alone would probably be reason enough for prosecutors to NOT charge him with anything. And his age at the time would be a factor to consider should he be called as a witness.

Richard Welch was about 33 years old in 1975. He has no known criminal record.

Here is my impression. I do have a fondness for conspiracies and a deep mistrust for most law enforcement types, so that colors it.

1) From http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/02/2...t-maryland-mall-with-sisters-on-day-vanished/ The young person who was in the car was interviewed by reporters and his answers make it seem very unlikely he was in a car involved in kidnappings. His answers though do show hostility to Lloyd, the one who made the accusation / confession. Assuming the hostility is mutual that would explain part of the confession. It seems extremely unlikely an 11 year old would be in a car that kidnapped two similarly aged kids, first of all, and then that he would never mention it. It borders on silly. And then, at that house, supposedly the next day Lloyd says things that seem improbable, at best.

2) So why the confession? Was it initiated by him, or was it solicited in some way by law enforcers? I'm reminded of the initial comments that I read on this case by simplifymylife. How common is it for a 40 year old case to suddenly be solved this way? And correlate that with the recent posts by various people on this case. In other words was the case 'solved' abruptly because for the past few years people have been digging into the case, coming up with ideas etc? Or is it a coincidence? Did some people in law enforcement feel pressure to resolve this case publicly, if shakily?

 

[sistersleuth]

For starters, we have a little girl, blonde, age 12 (same as Sheila), same first name as Katherine (Kate) who was aparently abducted and who is still missing many years later.

The Lyon sisters went missing from their home area in Maryland, while Katie went missing from her home in Charlottsville, Virginia. Charlottsville is about a two hour drive from Kensington, Wheaton, MD and about halfway between there and Bedford County, VA where recent search activity has been centered in regard to police theories that the Lyon sisters were buried there.

The person convicted of Katie's abduction and murder seems to have a personality and history similar to a current Person of Interest in the Lyon case.

Those are just a few similarities that caught my attention in regard to the Lyon case. There may be similarities to other cases discussed here as well.

It is very obvious that most individuals who commit these types of crimes do it over and over again. Perhaps finding links to other crimes - both solved and unsolved - will lead to resolution of some of the more difficult ones.

There is seldom a "carbon copy" similarity as seen on TV where everything is the same from one crime scene to another, but perhaps one or two common elements might be recognized as more than just a coincidence.

I dounbt the name has anything to do with it
One girl disappeared in the middle of the night
two girls disappeared in the middle of the day

Not the same

 

[FleaSpirit]

I dounbt the name has anything to do with it
One girl disappeared in the middle of the night
two girls disappeared in the middle of the day

Not the same

A general observation. There are very few stranger abductions in the U.S., about a hundred, or so. And of those a fairly small percentage involve murder or a permanently missing person, I don't remember the exact statistic. Also, that kind of thing is often a repeat crime, the person continues until caught or dead.

Putting those two factoids together, the chances of any two missing children in one small area being related are higher than a person might guess. Those two cases might or might not be related, but the simple fact that two abducted children were within a hundred miles and seven years apart give them a fair chance of being related.

Again, I scratch my head over how two children can be abducted in Salt Lake city fifteen blocks apart on the same street, within two years, with two separate people arrested and convicted, and both cases full of inaccurate information given by the police and FBI, and yet no one asks any questions. That baffles me.

 

[siriunsun]

Here is my impression. I do have a fondness for conspiracies and a deep mistrust for most law enforcement types, so that colors it.

1) From http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/02/2...t-maryland-mall-with-sisters-on-day-vanished/ The young person who was in the car was interviewed by reporters and his answers make it seem very unlikely he was in a car involved in kidnappings. His answers though do show hostility to Lloyd, the one who made the accusation / confession. Assuming the hostility is mutual that would explain part of the confession. It seems extremely unlikely an 11 year old would be in a car that kidnapped two similarly aged kids, first of all, and then that he would never mention it. It borders on silly. And then, at that house, supposedly the next day Lloyd says things that seem improbable, at best.

2) So why the confession? Was it initiated by him, or was it solicited in some way by law enforcers? I'm reminded of the initial comments that I read on this case by simplifymylife. How common is it for a 40 year old case to suddenly be solved this way? And correlate that with the recent posts by various people on this case. In other words was the case 'solved' abruptly because for the past few years people have been digging into the case, coming up with ideas etc? Or is it a coincidence? Did some people in law enforcement feel pressure to resolve this case publicly, if shakily?

I don't think LLW initiated the confession. I think law enforcement heard a tip from another source, and when his name was mentioned, were obliged to go talk to him. When Officer Francke of Montgomery County made those comments about family members covering for each other, I wondered if he was being inappropriately harsh, but the more I read and hear about this case, the more I think he has it right.

 

[simplifymylife2014]

Here is my impression. I do have a fondness for conspiracies and a deep mistrust for most law enforcement types, so that colors it.

1) From http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/02/2...t-maryland-mall-with-sisters-on-day-vanished/ The young person who was in the car was interviewed by reporters and his answers make it seem very unlikely he was in a car involved in kidnappings. His answers though do show hostility to Lloyd, the one who made the accusation / confession. Assuming the hostility is mutual that would explain part of the confession. It seems extremely unlikely an 11 year old would be in a car that kidnapped two similarly aged kids, first of all, and then that he would never mention it. It borders on silly. And then, at that house, supposedly the next day Lloyd says things that seem improbable, at best.

2) So why the confession? Was it initiated by him, or was it solicited in some way by law enforcers? I'm reminded of the initial comments that I read on this case by simplifymylife. How common is it for a 40 year old case to suddenly be solved this way? And correlate that with the recent posts by various people on this case. In other words was the case 'solved' abruptly because for the past few years people have been digging into the case, coming up with ideas etc? Or is it a coincidence? Did some people in law enforcement feel pressure to resolve this case publicly, if shakily?

What were the initial comments from me about the case that you were referring to that you read?

 

[Richard]

Here is my impression. I do have a fondness for conspiracies and a deep mistrust for most law enforcement types, so that colors it.
1) From http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/02/2...t-maryland-mall-with-sisters-on-day-vanished/ The young person who was in the car was interviewed by reporters and his answers make it seem very unlikely he was in a car involved in kidnappings. His answers though do show hostility to Lloyd, the one who made the accusation / confession. Assuming the hostility is mutual that would explain part of the confession. It seems extremely unlikely an 11 year old would be in a car that kidnapped two similarly aged kids, first of all, and then that he would never mention it. It borders on silly. And then, at that house, supposedly the next day Lloyd says things that seem improbable, at best.

2) So why the confession? Was it initiated by him, or was it solicited in some way by law enforcers? I'm reminded of the initial comments that I read on this case by simplifymylife. How common is it for a 40 year old case to suddenly be solved this way? And correlate that with the recent posts by various people on this case. In other words was the case 'solved' abruptly because for the past few years people have been digging into the case, coming up with ideas etc? Or is it a coincidence? Did some people in law enforcement feel pressure to resolve this case publicly, if shakily?

1. I would hope that MCP interviewed the 11 Year Old Boy (Thomas Welch, Jr) back in 2013 immediately after Lloyd Welch claimed that he was present in a car with the Lyon Sisters on 25 March 1975. Who knows what he might have said at the time? His statements to the News Reporters could mean anything. It would be interesting to hear his whole story and what he does remember regarding the Lyon sisters - either from hearing about it or from actually meeting them (if he did).

2. If you believe the story told by MCP, it was Lloyd who initiated a story of some sort back on 1 April 1975. His stepmother recalls him reading about the Lyon sisters on that date and saying that he wanted to collect a reward which had just been announced. She further states that he called in a tip, but that she doubted he actually knew anything.

MCP claims that Lloyd approached a Wheaton Plaza Security Guard and related a story to him and that the guard called in MCP to question Lloyd further. MCP gave Lloyd a polygraph test and determined that Lloyd was being deceptive in his statements and sent him away.

In 2013 (or possibly earlier) MCP became interested in Lloyd Welch again. MCP claims that this was because a new case officer had reviewed the files and came up with Lloyd's 1 April 1975 interview and statements, and further that they connected him with a previously unreleased sketch of an unknown Long Haired Man seen at Wheaton Plaza the day the girls went missing. It has also been suggested that Lloyd may have made statements to a younger cousin who visited him in his Delaware Prison.

How ever MCP became aware of Lloyd, they DID question him in prison and evidently obtained statements from him which implicated his Uncle Richard "Dick" Welch in the abduction of Sheila and Katherine Lyon. It is anyone's guess HOW MCP investigators obtained those statements. Here are a few possibilities:

- Did Lloyd feel true remorse and want to clear his conscience and make a full confession?

- In 2013, Lloyd was up for possible early release from prison. Did investigators hint to Lloyd that they would put in a good word for him if he cooperated?

- MCP made an effort to ascertain whether or not WMAL would still honor the $7,000 reward they offered back in 1975. Had they hinted to Lloyd that he might be able to collect on it, based on his 1 April 1975 tip?

- Does Lloyd actually know for a fact that his uncle was responsible for the girls' disappearance and did MCP get him to feel anger toward his uncle, or remorse and sympathy for the Lyon family?

- Did MCP investigators hint to Lloyd that the girls' bodies had been found and that he was the prime suspect in their murder? Note that Lloyd's statement implicates his uncle as abducting and raping the girls, but he claims to have not seen them again. Further, he has sent a letter to the Washington Post denying any involvement in the girls' murder. How did murder become an issue for him to comment on?

- Is his statement an attempt to minimize his participation and deflect blame?

- Does MCP have more solid evidence linking Lloyd to other crimes which they used to coerce/coax him to cooperation in the Lyon case?

I want to state that the above are just questions for consideration and possible speculations as to why Lloyd offered his statements to MCP investigators, not absolute facts.

Only MCP and Lloyd know the factual answer to your question at this point. If the case ever comes to trial, it will be a very important question to be answered.

 

[siriunsun]

1. I would hope that MCP interviewed the 11 Year Old Boy (Thomas Welch, Jr) back in 2013 immediately after Lloyd Welch claimed that he was present in a car with the Lyon Sisters on 25 March 1975. Who knows what he might have said at the time? His statements to the News Reporters could mean anything. It would be interesting to hear his whole story and what he does remember regarding the Lyon sisters - either from hearing about it or from actually meeting them (if he did).

2. If you believe the story told by MCP, it was Lloyd who initiated a story of some sort back on 1 April 1975. His stepmother recalls him reading about the Lyon sisters on that date and saying that he wanted to collect a reward which had just been announced. She further states that he called in a tip, but that she doubted he actually knew anything.

MCP claims that Lloyd approached a Wheaton Plaza Security Guard and related a story to him and that the guard called in MCP to question Lloyd further. MCP gave Lloyd a polygraph test and determined that Lloyd was being deceptive in his statements and sent him away.

In 2013 (or possibly earlier) MCP became interested in Lloyd Welch again. MCP claims that this was because a new case officer had reviewed the files and came up with Lloyd's 1 April 1975 interview and statements, and further that they connected him with a previously unreleased sketch of an unknown Long Haired Man seen at Wheaton Plaza the day the girls went missing. It has also been suggested that Lloyd may have made statements to a younger cousin who visited him in his Delaware Prison.

How ever MCP became aware of Lloyd, they DID question him in prison and evidently obtained statements from him which implicated his Uncle Richard "Dick" Welch in the abduction of Sheila and Katherine Lyon. It is anyone's guess HOW MCP investigators obtained those statements. Here are a few possibilities:

- Did Lloyd feel true remorse and want to clear his conscience and make a full confession?

- In 2013, Lloyd was up for possible early release from prison. Did investigators hint to Lloyd that they would put in a good word for him if he cooperated?

- MCP made an effort to ascertain whether or not WMAL would still honor the $7,000 reward they offered back in 1975. Had they hinted to Lloyd that he might be able to collect on it, based on his 1 April 1975 tip?

- Does Lloyd actually know for a fact that his uncle was responsible for the girls' disappearance and did MCP get him to feel anger toward his uncle, or remorse and sympathy for the Lyon family?

- Did MCP investigators hint to Lloyd that the girls' bodies had been found and that he was the prime suspect in their murder? Note that Lloyd's statement implicates his uncle as abducting and raping the girls, but he claims to have not seen them again. Further, he has sent a letter to the Washington Post denying any involvement in the girls' murder. How did murder become an issue for him to comment on?

- Is his statement an attempt to minimize his participation and deflect blame?

- Does MCP have more solid evidence linking Lloyd to other crimes which they used to coerce/coax him to cooperation in the Lyon case?

I want to state that the above are just questions for consideration and possible speculations as to why Lloyd offered his statements to MCP investigators, not absolute facts.

Only MCP and Lloyd know the factual answer to your question at this point. If the case ever comes to trial, it will be a very important question to be answered.

You can rest assured that the eleven year old was interviewed. As his name came up, there was no way to avoid interviewing him. As for any possibility that Lloyd felt remorse...well.....what do YOU think? Especially if he sits there claiming knowledge of the event, such as being in the same car with Katherine and Sheila, yet still having nothing to do with their disappearance? Either he is lying about the whole thing, or he is lying about his involvement, one or the other. Either way, it is extremely insensitive to the Lyon family. If LLW feels no empathy, why would we assume he has any remorse?

Kidnapping not one, but two children was most likely accomplished with accomplices. For many reasons, the eleven year old is NOT a likely accomplice. Still, law enforcement and the court should be and are very interested in anyone who could have served as an accomplice or as a co-defendant. So.....the property owners where evidence was found are the natural persons of interest, until they are either ruled out, or tried by juries of their peers.

Why the he77 did Lloyd send a letter to the Washington Post about the whole thing? No lawyer would recommend a thing like that! Is he stupid?

 

[FleaSpirit]

What were the initial comments from me about the case that you were referring to that you read?

Those were on another thread. The comments to the effect that some variation of group was involved. First, it seems strange that a regular pedophile would abduct two children. How and why? Most likely if one kid is grabbed the other is either going to fight or run. So it makes sense the person either had a badge, knew the kids or some other explanation. And why two? Unless those two were specifically targeted or there was a situation where two provides a benefit that one does not. In other words one pedophile can only rape one victim. Why would one pedophile abduct two children? Are there other cases where a single abductor took two children for sexual motives? It seems very possible some group was involved.

Another point. At that time, the 1970s, it was not that rare to hear about a kidnappings. I remember vaguely in NY around that time, late 70s early 80s, a businessman of some sort was kidnapped and put in a sort of underground coffin with an air tube. There was some sort of ransom negotiation or something but by the time they found him he was dead, I think. Maybe they were kidnapped for ransom and somehow that went awry.

Obviously at this point the Welch fellow who confessed is the obvious suspect. But unless the confession and other facts released by law enforcement are transparent, and verifiable beyond the simple sayso of investigators, I'd be skeptical.

 

[FleaSpirit]

This case is running around in circles. One very important point people need to keep in mind when reading stuff like this is that any person can be made to confess to anything. If you want to read about confessions try
http://www.falseconfessions.org/fact-a-figures
and
http://innocenceproject.org/causes-wrongful-conviction/false-confessions-or-admissions

A confession by itself has no value whatsoever. Zero.
A confession obtained by someone seeking a confession should be viewed with extreme skepticism. Evidence and facts either exist or they don't. It is the signature of gangsterish law enforcement to rely on or value confessions, except for the productive information contained in them.

There is a famous story about a mummy that was discovered in Egypt many years ago. They couldn't find much info scientifically and someone suggested asking for help from their superpower ally the USSR. Some KGB people were sent over. Within a few hours they provided a full report. The mummy's name, date of birth, how he died, and so on.

So far nothing has been produced publicly from any effort law enforcement has made to research Lloyd Welch. Zero. The confession, if it were improved a little, would be worthless.

 

[siriunsun]

For what it's worth, I do not believe that law enforcement is depending on the confession for court. In fact, I would call Lloyd's words a "statement", or a couple of statements, rather than a "confession". I think law enforcement just took the information that was relevant from it and looked for evidence. Police also know that in order for an actual confession to stand up in court and rule out other suspects or scenarios, more than what has taken place with LLW needs to occur. Also, LLW would certainly have been represented by an attorney if he was going to go on record with a confession.

 

[FleaSpirit]

For what it's worth, I do not believe that law enforcement is depending on the confession for court. In fact, I would call Lloyd's words a "statement", or a couple of statements, rather than a "confession". I think law enforcement just took the information that was relevant from it and looked for evidence. Police also know that in order for an actual confession to stand up in court and rule out other suspects or scenarios, more than what has taken place with LLW needs to occur. Also, LLW would certainly have been represented by an attorney if he was going to go on record with a confession.

I'll disagree and cite some examples.

1) There have been countless recent examples where the only evidence used to convict was a confession.
a) The Central Park Jogger was a famous case that was in the news recently. The police got four confessions from four kids, none of the facts provided in the confessions matched the crime evidence until police helped the confesses fix their confessions. Literally dozens of cops knew the confessions were problematic and not one of them, not a single one stepped up.
b) The Esar Met case which I am fond of mentioning. The police got a confession and zero physical or any other evidence. They basically took worthless physical information and presented it as evidence. A bloody footprint that an expert said could have come from anyone in the house. DNA under the victim's nails that almost certainly was under her nails long before the crime. Four small spots of blood on the jacket which contradict both the confession and crime scene evidence. etc. etc.
c) Many other examples.

At this point, based on how they have publicized it, it looks like they plan to do something besides look for information.

The simple fact that he has probably been questioned dozens of hours, or more, and all anyone has gotten is a pretty dubious story, should be the first thing noticed.

The fact that there are hundreds of examples of people being railroaded on less of a confession is the second thing.

Assuming he is guilty of the specific crimes he is in jail for, and he probably is, I am not too bothered by adding another 500 years to a 500 year sentence, or whatever it is. I'm just pointing out how low the standard for justice is.

 

[siriunsun]

The standard of justice can be pretty low sometimes, otherwise there would not be a demand for Project Innocence. I'm not bothered, either, by adding 500 years to Lloyd's sentence. Something that would bother me is nailing the wrong guy, and allowing the real culprit to go free. Also, if the remains did not match up to the theory the police came up with, that would bother me. I know the Lyon family would like answers.

 

[FleaSpirit]

Something that would bother me is nailing the wrong guy, and allowing the real culprit to go free.

Destiny Norton, age 5, kidnapped and killed in Salt Lake city in 2006.
Neighbor arrested.
FBI agent obtains confession but forgot to record the confession. He had recorded all the other interviews he did.
Numerous discrepancies between police / FBI accounts and witness accounts, e.g., wife of suspect says she spent time with suspect the evening of the kidnappings, neighbors claim house had been searched, etc. The FBI account of the house search stretches believability.
Cause of death strangling or suffocating.

Hser Ner Moo, age 7, kidnapped and killed in Salt Lake city in 2008.
Neighbor arrested.
A confession is obtained by the FBI, but it is a textbook example of a false confession. The confession had not been available to the public until long after the conviction was obtained.
Numerous problems with the physical evidence in the case.
The blankets and sheets from the crime scene were gone.
Cause of death strangling or suffocating and numerous injuries.

Sierra Newbold, age 6, kidnapped and killed in Salt Lake city in 2012.
Neighbor arrested.
Cause of death strangling or suffocating and drowning.
Blanket was found with the body.
Case is awaiting some legal issues. No significant news since the arrest.

All three of these cases have a number of things in common if you research them.

 

[siriunsun]

An FBI agent FORGOT to record a confession? The defense attorney must have had a field day with that!

The way the evidence on those cases was handled reminds me a little of the way people were allowed to go in and out of the McStay house before it was declared a crime scene.

 

[FleaSpirit]

An FBI agent FORGOT to record a confession? The defense attorney must have had a field day with that!

The way the evidence on those cases was handled reminds me a little of the way people were allowed to go in and out of the McStay house before it was declared a crime scene.

Had not heard about the McStays. Found this
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/26/justice/mcstay-family-disappearance/index.html and was going to say "obviously they went to Mexico" but then saw http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ead-barely-afford-rent-despite-100k-bank.html oops. That case will have a huge amount of probably relevant evidence though, considering the business, the 100k that appeared right before they disappeared, etc. Unfortunately almost none of the relevant evidence will be easily available to the public.

In the Utah murders there is quite a bit of evidence missing, but there is enough left to say
1) Several killings are probably related.
2) There is strong evidence the wrong person was deliberately arrested in the Hser Ner Moo murder. You can decide whether it was because of public pressure to solve the case or some other reason.
3) There is certainly something wrong with the DNA evidence in all three of those cases.
a) Destiny Norton. The prosecutor seemed to consider the confession important, which suggests a possible weakness in physical evidence. The confession supposedly included something about having sex with the dead body of the child. The implication is that there may not have been that DNA present in the corpse.
b) Hser Ner Moo. Rape kit DNA was inconclusive. No DNA from a rape was used in the case. The body was attacked or mutilated sexually, but not apparently with a sexual motive.
c) Sierra Newbold. The media reported that the body had DNA from the person arrested, but that does not seem to be accurate. Actually if you look at the form online that was used to charge him it says a swab was taken from him, and that the girl's DNA was on that swab. In other words despite the body having been found almost immediately there was probably no DNA found on the body itself.
In the Hser Ner Moo killing there are additional huge problems with DNA evidence which anyone can see by reading regular media articles.
4) There is almost no way that these killings could be a coincidence. About 100 kids are abducted and killed in the U.S. per year http://www.missingkids.com/KeyFacts Of those a very small percentage would be in the age range that most of Salt Lake city's are in.

Compare the statistics to those for the Lyon sisters and the other cases mentioned on this thread. Despite being vastly more populated, in order to find similar cases a person has to go miles away and years apart.

Anyway I didn't mean to hijack this thread. When I have additional material on the Utah killings I'll post that somewhere else. I now officially will stop posting on this thread before I get banned. Hopefully you who are pursuing the 1975 case will find something useful on it.