Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert

[dc20015]

All I can say is... Wow. That was reckless on any number of levels. I'm sure that if he is the SK he's destroying any potential evidence right now.

So I guess its safe to assume that he hasn't been re-interviewed by Suffolk County police since 2010 when the Manorville bodies were found on Ocean Parkway.

Did you ask him why was he was interviewed in 2005 regarding the Manorville slayings? Why did he call himself "Sal from Manorville" and threaten to put his victims with the "rest of those *advertiser censored*"?

Why was he paranoid that you were a cop?

Where does he work, where has he worked for the last 3-5 years?

Why was he surprised that people on the Internet thought he might be a person of interest given that police questioned him about murders that he seemingly claimed responsibility for? And since those women from Manorville were found in the vicinity of like 8 other bodies?

By the way, I didn't want you to go to the PD. I wanted you to go to the clerk of the court at the courthouse. That lack of attention to detail is alarming when considering your report on your rendezvous.

As far as your innate lie detecting capabilities, tell me the truth, Truth... Do you think that you would have been able to identify Joel Rifkin as a mass murderer if you had a similar opportunity to knock on his door?

Yeah, the fact that the guy didn't seem like a killer really means nothing. How many times have guy next door types been outed as creeps? I have no idea who the killer or killers is/are, but that is not a disqualifier.

 

[truthspider]

Yeah, the fact that the guy didn't seem like a killer really means nothing. How many times have guy next door types been outed as creeps? I have no idea who the killer or killers is/are, but that is not a disqualifier.

I only needed to speak to him for a few seconds before deciding for myself that this particular phone terrorist, is not the same person as the LISK phone terrorist.

I wasn't claiming to be able to tell if someone is lying.

 

[WINDSOR]

Truthspider,

Congratulations on your initiative and courage.

1) I see no negatives to what you did. IF CM was the LISK he has been hiding evidence a long time ago. Your visit will no way negatively impact on the case IMO.

2) I personally believe that somebody attuned to human behaviour can sense maliciousness/evil in others. I will assume you have this ability and accept your opinion regarding CM's non-involvement.

3) With all due respect to the Inspector, I think that CM is a distraction to solving this case.

4)Are you now planning to visit the other 'candidates' and see if any of them behave differently? Realising that nobody is obligated to speak to you, I wonder if all the other 'candidates' will be as open as CM.

Of course these are just my thoughts and opinions.

 

[inspctrgadget]

I only needed to speak to him for a few seconds before deciding for myself that this particular phone terrorist, is not the same person as the LISK phone terrorist.

I wasn't claiming to be able to tell if someone is lying.

How could you possibly know? You haven't heard the serial killer's voice. Have you reviewed the statements he made? He threatened to cut off his victim's breasts. He threatened to kill these women. These women were so terrified that he was after them that they changed their daily habits.

TruthSpider, no offense, but you're hopelessly conflicted here. You believe passionately that CPH is the SK. You went over to warn this creep that people were talking about him on the Internet? You were looking out for his interests as a neighbor? You told him to look out for Peter Hackett? You made a determination in 3 seconds?

What is that all about? Trusting you gut and ignoring the evidence is not a great idea for a detective-in-training.

You're completely ignoring the similarities between Carman's M.O. and the serial killer's M.O.

You're also ignoring the fact that Carman's background has some of the typical elements of serial killers. Namely, dead father at an early age, lived with his mom, stalking behavior, deviant sexual behavior, and a history of psychological disorder. You're also not taking into account that his stalking behavior was atypical and according to studies represents the "dangerous" stalker (i.e., one with a propensity for actual violence).

You falsely believe that if you're "street wise", you'll be able to identify the serial killer based on a first impression. The FBI feels otherwise and notes that serial killers are like any population - each one is unique, and most are not the deranged, highly intelligent killer that TV makes them out to be. And many are overlooked by even seasoned police investigators because they are otherwise normal or unremarkable.

Maybe you can provide the group with any pertinent details about your conversation. Your first post about your rendezvous lacked any actual information and only contained your (hopelessly conflicted - again, no offense) opinion. Or are you now an ardent supporter of your neighbor and you plan on respecting his right to privacy, your mutual friends and the confidential nature of your discussion with him.

Did you ask him any useful questions or did you just wing it? What did he say exactly about his prior offense?

 

[MrsPC]

- 2 year gap (between MBB and MB)
- 1 year gap (between MB and MW)
- 4 month gap (between MW and ALC)
- 1 year 4 month gap (between ALC and now)

So he kills on average every 1.11 years (1 year, 1.5 months). At this point, he's only 2.5 months overdue.

I've excluded SG because there's a question as to whether or not she was a victim. I've excluded Manorville and the other victims because there's a question of whether they're related.

Also, note the following:

From:http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

Myth: Serial killers cannot stop killing.

It has been widely believed that once serial killers start killing, they cannot stop. There are, however, some serial killers who stop murdering altogether before being caught. In these instances, there are events or circumstances in offenders’ lives that inhibit them from pursuing more victims. These can include increased participation in family activities, sexual substitution, and other diversions.

• BTK killer, Dennis Rader, murdered ten victims from 1974 to 1991. He did not kill any other victims prior to being captured in 2005. During interviews conducted by law enforcement, Rader admitted to engaging in auto-erotic activities as a substitute for his killings.

• Jeffrey Gorton killed his first victim in 1986 and his next victim in 1991. He did not kill another victim and was captured in 2002. Gorton engaged in cross-dressing and masturbatory activities, as well as consensual sex with his wife in the interim.

......

Myth: Serial killers want to get caught.

Offenders committing a crime for the first time are inexperienced. They gain experience and confidence with each new offense, eventually succeeding with few mistakes or problems.

While most serial killers plan their offenses more thoroughly than other criminals, the learning curve is still very steep. They must select, target, approach, control, and dispose of their victims. The logistics involved in committing a murder and disposing of the body can become very complex, especially when there are multiple sites involved.

As serial killers continue to offend without being captured, they can become empowered, feeling they will never be identified. As the series continues, the killers may begin to take shortcuts when committing their crimes. This often causes the killers to take more chances, leading to identification by law enforcement. It is not that serial killers want to get caught; they feel that they can’t get caught.


______________


So there you have it. There are other reasons why the killing may appear to have stopped. The killer needs to recalibrate everything. The media attention has his potential victims being more careful, the police have discovered his comfort zone for disposal... And since he's only killed on average every 1.11 years, it's not surprising that he's only slightly behind schedule. Or he may have just substituted something else to fill that need.

My question was really meant to assume that Shannan had never gone missing, but that the other women's bodies were found. No investigation at Oak Beach, no CPH, no JB/Diaz/Pak/Mari. In THAT situation, would you think that the SK was from Oak Beach based merely on its proximity to the bodies?

excellent post & especially with regard to the lapses in time between the murders...

and without Gilbert in the mix, I think I would truly have no idea where the killer might reside...but since Gilbert is in the mix - thru the same line of work, the same disappearing act, and then being found dead...it's just way too coincidental for me .I just cannot separate her from the others. That's why I believe Oak Beach is the SK's stomping ground (at least with the Gilgo 4.) I sort of still have doubts that the Manorville victims were killed by the same person.

 

[truthspider]

Truthspider,

Congratulations on your initiative and courage.

1) I see no negatives to what you did. IF CM was the LISK he has been hiding evidence a long time ago. Your visit will no way negatively impact on the case IMO.

Thanks!

2) I personally believe that somebody attuned to human behaviour can sense maliciousness/evil in others. I will assume you have this ability and accept your opinion regarding CM's non-involvement.

I hate to break hearts, but I don't have "spider sense" lol. Literally the sound of his voice doesn't match up to the description of voice of the LISK if you know what I mean.

3) With all due respect to the Inspector, I think that CM is a distraction to solving this case.

4)Are you now planning to visit the other 'candidates' and see if any of them behave differently? Realising that nobody is obligated to speak to you, I wonder if all the other 'candidates' will be as open as CM.

I am always up for some excitement so who knows, but the reason I didn't mind checking up on CM is that I am from Patchogue, so it felt ok for me to go knocking.

Of course these are just my thoughts and opinions.

As it is only my opinion that CM isn't our guy.

 

[truthspider]

How could you possibly know? You haven't heard the serial killer's voice. Have you reviewed the statements he made? He threatened to cut off his victim's breasts. He threatened to kill these women. These women were so terrified that he was after them that they changed their daily habits.

We all have heard the description of of the SK's voice, and CM aint him.
Don't get me wrong, CM isn't coming to my thanksgiving dinner anytime soon, he's as nuts as the majority of patchogue residents. My town manufactures lunatics like they are going out of style: jeffrey mcdonald (murdered whole family), Bryant Neal Vinas (home grown terrorist), David Laffer (medford pharmacy shooter, I graduated with that nutter), those hate crime murdering devils from a couple of years ago smh, me, you get the idea, there is definetely something in the water.

TruthSpider, no offense, but you're hopelessly conflicted here. You believe passionately that CPH is the SK. You went over to warn this creep that people were talking about him on the Internet? You were looking out for his interests as a neighbor? You told him to look out for Peter Hackett? You made a determination in 3 seconds?

who said anything about hackett? I never mentioned him in my posts about CM. It was more like 10 seconds.

Did you ask him any useful questions or did you just wing it? What did he say exactly about his prior offense?

I totally winged it, i was just trying to see if the guy was still alive/lived here.
The guy has some real issues don't get me wrong, he is of the kind of nutter who is only fascinated with "famous" people. news12 "famous" smh. But I think being a potty mouth on the phone was all he needed to get off. Saying violent things to someone is not the same thing as doing them, we have probably all (or most) at some time said some crazy things to someone or other. I have been known to say things such as "I'll cut your tongue out" etc. but it doesn't mean I sit around dreaming of doing such a thing. We are looking for someone who fantasizes about such violence and not someone who merely spouts it.

 

[SherlockHomes]

There is not a consistent description of the SK's voice. Melissa's sister and Lawyer say 20's to 30's and calm and collected while JT says older and drunk

 

[inspctrgadget]

We all have heard the description of of the SK's voice, and CM aint him.
Don't get me wrong, CM isn't coming to my thanksgiving dinner anytime soon, he's as nuts as the majority of patchogue residents. My town manufactures lunatics like they are going out of style: jeffrey mcdonald (murdered whole family), Bryant Neal Vinas (home grown terrorist), David Laffer (medford pharmacy shooter, I graduated with that nutter), those hate crime murdering devils from a couple of years ago smh, me, you get the idea, there is definetely something in the water.



who said anything about hackett? I never mentioned him in my posts about CM. It was more like 10 seconds.




I totally winged it, i was just trying to see if the guy was still alive/lived here.
The guy has some real issues don't get me wrong, he is of the kind of nutter who is only fascinated with "famous" people. news12 "famous" smh. But I think being a potty mouth on the phone was all he needed to get off. Saying violent things to someone is not the same thing as doing them, we have probably all (or most) at some time said some crazy things to someone or other. I have been known to say things such as "I'll cut your tongue out" etc. but it doesn't mean I sit around dreaming of doing such a thing. We are looking for someone who fantasizes about such violence and not someone who merely spouts it.

I thought you were referring to CPH when you said "just let him know "the streets" were talking about him with relation to the lisk case and he should keep an eye out for an actual SK who pretends to be a cop."

For 6 years this guy was threatening his victims. You're telling me that he wasn't sexually fantasizing about his victims? About hurting them? The GB4 actually seem to resemble the 3 anchorwomen.

The SK's calls to Amanda were described as: "vulgar, mocking and insulting"
Monaco's calls were "lewd and menacing" and "sexually laced".

Here's all we know about the voice, which I would argue is not enough for you to make a judgement call:
- "The killer always phoned in the evenings, spoke briefly and in a low voice -- and only to Amanda. He calmly spewed taunts and allegations"

- Earlier this week Amanda Barthelemy said in an ABC television interview that the caller used "taunting and angry words."

"Why was I chosen, why was I taunted?" she asked. "Very scary. My heart would stop and I just didn't know what to do. I'm scared of my own protection. I have to be worried about, is that going to happen to me one day?"

- The voice on the other end was calm and bland, and never yelled or laughed, her mother said. Lynn Barthelemy would not say what was said in those calls.



Here's what we know about Carman's impact on his victims:
Monaco's mea culpa yesterday came after several of the anchors from the Woodbury-based, 24-hour news channel spoke in court, giving passionate statements about how his terror campaign not only panicked them but also frightened their families.

Morning anchor Silva called Monaco "cowardly," and an emotional Hashagen, wearing a skirt in defiance of Monaco, said he affected her everyday decisions, even causing her to stop wearing skirts to work.

"This case was never just about phone calls," said prosecutor Roxanne Paquette. "Because they had no idea of who they were dealing with, that fear of uncertainty changed their entire lives."


Did he provide any specific details about himself? Job, etc.? Can you maybe provide a more detailed, dispassionate review of what was said exactly?

 

[inspctrgadget]

There is not a consistent description of the SK's voice. Melissa's sister and Lawyer say 20's to 30's and calm and collected while JT says older and drunk

JT doesn't say "older", Melissa does. The lawyer is making a WAG based on who knows what. I don't even think he's heard the actual calls.

 

[Clem Snide]

All I can say is... Wow. That was reckless on any number of levels. I'm sure that if he is the SK he's destroying any potential evidence right now.

So I guess its safe to assume that he hasn't been re-interviewed by Suffolk County police since 2010 when the Manorville bodies were found on Ocean Parkway.

Did you ask him why was he was interviewed in 2005 regarding the Manorville slayings? Why did he call himself "Sal from Manorville" and threaten to put his victims with the "rest of those *advertiser censored*"?

Why was he paranoid that you were a cop?

Where does he work, where has he worked for the last 3-5 years?

Why was he surprised that people on the Internet thought he might be a person of interest given that police questioned him about murders that he seemingly claimed responsibility for? And since those women from Manorville were found in the vicinity of like 8 other bodies?

By the way, I didn't want you to go to the PD. I wanted you to go to the clerk of the court at the courthouse. That lack of attention to detail is alarming when considering your report on your rendezvous.

As far as your innate lie detecting capabilities, tell me the truth, Truth... Do you think that you would have been able to identify Joel Rifkin as a mass murderer if you had a similar opportunity to knock on his door?

I have to agree. I don't think it's any of our place to interact with anyone involved in the case. Looking up info on people is fine, but potentially interfering with a police investigation could potentially harm the case. You're heart's in the right place, but I suggest you familiarize yourself with the law of unintended consequences.

 

[truthspider]

I have to agree. I don't think it's any of our place to interact with anyone involved in the case. Looking up info on people is fine, but potentially interfering with a police investigation could potentially harm the case. You're heart's in the right place, but I suggest you familiarize yourself with the law of unintended consequences.

If there were a bunch of people investigating your neighbor, wouldn't you mention it? The guy was clearly terrorizing news12 journalists and since the Manorville case was getting attention on news12. What better way to scare someone than make a reference to those horrific events. He was a crazy person referencing the relevant case of the time to scare women. How many people today are making inappropriate reference to the LISK? It doesn't make them the LISK.

 

[shadowraiths]

If there were a bunch of people investigating your neighbor, wouldn't you mention it?

Oh put-leeze. You had not even heard of the guy until inspctrgadget brought him up. That CM Jr happens to live in your neck of the woods is meaningless... that is, outside of providing you with some lame excuse to interfere in this investigation (you know... the real life investigation that involves real murdered women? not some arm chair sleuthing forum where people gather to kibitz about whodunnit?) All things considered, it is more than obvious that you're hell-bent on doing what you can to make sure all roads point to CPH. So much so, that not only are you sporting his picture as your avie but you're even willing to tip off a guy who has not been ruled out as POI for the Manorville murders.

 

[Clem Snide]

If there were a bunch of people investigating your neighbor, wouldn't you mention it? The guy was clearly terrorizing news12 journalists and since the Manorville case was getting attention on news12. What better way to scare someone than make a reference to those horrific events. He was a crazy person referencing the relevant case of the time to scare women. How many people today are making inappropriate reference to the LISK? It doesn't make them the LISK.

True. Don't misunderstand me, I don't think he's a terribly good suspect. The LISK covers his tracks pretty well and seems calm when he makes threatening phone calls. Monaco was easily detected. I'd imagine that his thinking is much more disorganized than that LISK. And I probably wouldn't give my neighbor the low down unless he and I were close friends. Even then, I might not.

My point is that it's just unwise to get too involved. Even if you came across the killer you may not know it, you may not know if or how it could potentially damage a police investigation and you may put yourself at risk.

Anyway, I don't mean to lecture. You'll do what you want to do, just giving my unsolicited advice.

 

[inspctrgadget]

If there were a bunch of people investigating your neighbor, wouldn't you mention it? The guy was clearly terrorizing news12 journalists and since the Manorville case was getting attention on news12. What better way to scare someone than make a reference to those horrific events. He was a crazy person referencing the relevant case of the time to scare women. How many people today are making inappropriate reference to the LISK? It doesn't make them the LISK.

Police interviewed him in 2004 or 2005. It sounds like they took his statements pretty seriously and didn't just willy-nilly dismiss his statements as those of a "crazy" person because the Manorville case was getting attention on News 12. If it even was getting that much attention, which I doubt given the lack of attention we see the media give the SK case these days.

Now, TruthSpider, you tell me... Jessica Taylor was found right next to Megan Waterman. Megan Waterman is related to Melissa Barthelemy through burlap. Melissa's sister and boyfriend received multiple vulgar phone calls from city locations. Monaco made multiple vulgar calls from city locations. Monaco worked in the city when Jessica Taylor went missing. Monaco worked in the city when Amanda received those calls. Monaco was questioned by police in the Manorville slayings based on whatever was said during his calls, which we don't know because you haven't produced the court file like you said you would. Police refused to say whether or not he was ruled out as a suspect.

This doesn't add up for you - at least as something worthy of real consideration by police, or an investigative journalist?

It's definitely possible that he just called himself "Sal from Manorville" for added dramatic effect. It's also possible that he is the serial killer.

Carman wasn't just trying to scare these women. He was gratified in his ability to exert his control over them, and he fantasized about what he would do to them once he had that control. Now, if he offs a few "*advertiser censored*" to temporarily satiate his real desire, so what? They're "*advertiser censored*." Noone cares about them. They all kind of look like the News 12 women.

Carman lacks empathy. He's got all of the requirements of the LISK.

 

[SoSueMe]

Please be advised that Websleuths does not condone or encourage the practice of members contacting suspects; case players; and/or law enforcement. What you do on your own time is your business and you're acting on your own behalf. Any member contacting suspects; case players; and/or law enforcement is not doing so on behalf of Websleuths. Any such representation of Websleuths could result in a revocation of membership.

Please continue sleuthing. The LISK forum contains a wealth of information and the sleuthing in this case is phenomenal.

Thank you!

Sue aka SoSueMe
Websleuths, Co-Owner

 

[inspctrgadget]

True. Don't misunderstand me, I don't think he's a terribly good suspect. The LISK covers his tracks pretty well and seems calm when he makes threatening phone calls. Monaco was easily detected. I'd imagine that his thinking is much more disorganized than that LISK. And I probably wouldn't give my neighbor the low down unless he and I were close friends. Even then, I might not.

My point is that it's just unwise to get too involved. Even if you came across the killer you may not know it, you may not know if or how it could potentially damage a police investigation and you may put yourself at risk.

Anyway, I don't mean to lecture. You'll do what you want to do, just giving my unsolicited advice.

Clem,

I don't think Carman was "easily detected." Note the following:

"The phone calls have been coming in for years," said Det. Lt. Steven Skrynecki of Nassau County Police Department. "

It followed a nine-month investigation involving rerouting certain Channel 12 phone lines to determine the origin of the calls, which were made from pay phones all over Long Island and New York City, police said. Police were eventually able to link Monaco, a truck driver whose route took him to the areas where the phone calls were made, to the calls, police said.

"We are particularly grateful to the Second Squad detectives as well as the electronics squad and the bureau of special operations," said company spokeswoman Deborah Koller-Feeney.

 

[Clem Snide]

Clem,

I don't think Carman was "easily detected." Note the following:

"The phone calls have been coming in for years," said Det. Lt. Steven Skrynecki of Nassau County Police Department. "

It followed a nine-month investigation involving rerouting certain Channel 12 phone lines to determine the origin of the calls, which were made from pay phones all over Long Island and New York City, police said. Police were eventually able to link Monaco, a truck driver whose route took him to the areas where the phone calls were made, to the calls, police said.

"We are particularly grateful to the Second Squad detectives as well as the electronics squad and the bureau of special operations," said company spokeswoman Deborah Koller-Feeney.

I stand corrected.

 

[Just K]

I stand corrected.

as have so many of us...

 

[the quiet girl]

I have to say I wonder about spiders motives here besides possibly discrediting any theory but his own, CPH. What is the deal are you trying to become famous through this case wright your own book? Not saying that is right or wrong, just curious.