PR/JR wrote the RN to explain their dead daughter in basement

[WHITEFANG]

Why not? You had to get her out of the bed to take her to the basement, why wouldn't one of the three leave it there? In fact, it makes more sense to me than the stairs. In your scenario, all this was preplanned, so there was no need to 'wing it' as far as the RN placement was concerned.

Just picking up on what you said HOTYH.



Now there's a thing I haven't heard or considered before! I made a comment earlier that JBR could have been killed much closer to 6.00am than we've been led to believe. RDI generally pooh poohed this. She wasn't found till 1.30pm I think it was, and DD reckoned it would take much longer for her stage of rigor to have set in. Of course, the ME who spent 10 minutes at the house didn't probably do an accurate temperature measurement to enable a closer TOD to be established. I think at Autopsy the following day it would have been impossible to pin TOD down too closely. I still think we have that range of 10pm to 6.00am and perhaps the RN was left in haste when the family awoke and the IDI escaped via either the basement window or a 'manhole' under the house. It would still have been fairly dark at that time in winter I suppose?

Could have walked out a door.

 

[MurriFlower]

Could have walked out a door.

Could have walked out of any one of seven doors, but the SFF didn't have a key to lock it again and all the doors were locked.

A 'friendly' IDI with a key could have though.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Cut the phone wires. Leave the RN on the bed. Escape via any one of 7 external doors. Use the mini-Uzi (SFF would have a silencer).

Couldn't happen HOTYH, because remember, they wrote the RN in the house that afternoon (or less likely after the killing), so they're not going to go to all that trouble and then just drop it as a diversion or as an emergency exit strategy due to having hung around too long and the family had begun to wake up.

Its amazing how much we know would or would not happen, when we know nothing about what did happen!

Its not an emergency exit strategy. Its a tripwire. An intruder in the kitchen needs a tripwire on the back stairs while watching the front stairs. This is during the time JBR is alive in the basement with two gentlemen. There's nothing wrong with this scenario, can't be disproven.

It is truly that simple.

Plus, this ransom note was a major diversion. It prevented a house search for JBR by having LE develop a ransom/bank/telephone response. It caused LE to broadcast JBR's description when she was never out. JBR wasn't found until that afternoon, after the phone call described in the ransom note never came. If the objective was to prevent or delay finding JBR, then the ransom noet was an effective diversion. JBR would've been found more quickly had it not been for the ransom note.

 

[Mastermind]

In an intruder scenario that was already described by the ransom note author, there were three intruders ('the two gentlemen').

1. Why do you need three people to kidnap one little girl?
Bank heists have been committed with less manpower.

2. Three people in the house? The Ramseys must be REAL sound sleepers in order not to hear that many people in the house.

3. How the heck did they get these three guys in the house anyway? Through that same broken window?

4. Wouldn't the third person be better served staying in the getaway car? or even staying behind to write a proper ransom note or make the expected phone call?

5. More importantly....why should we believe anything the ransom note writer says? Murder was pretty easy for the writer to accomplish...how hard could lying be for him?

6. If there are three intruders involved...they could have done a lot more than just kidnap Jonbenet. They could have at the least killed Burke as well.
Heck they could have killed the whole Ramsey family and burned the whole house down. They could have ransacked the whole house and made off with some decent money.

and yet the best these three guys could do is kill and molest a little girl..:waitasec:

7. Three intruders would seem more than capable of pulling off a succesfull kidnapping. Which would be very profitable for all three men. Why didn;t they just kidnap her in the first place instead of killing her?

8. why would three armed men be afraid of the Ramsey family? They could kill all of them anytime they wished to. What was John, Burke or Patsy going to do?

No, sorry.
There is no way that there were multiple intruders in that house.

 

[DeeDee249]

While the coroner did a poor cursory examination if the body in situ the stages of rigor and the arc it makes are not that variable in room temperature. Though it was a basement, it is still considered room (indoor) temperature. It was above freezing there, and actually their basement was described as being warm. With JB in the state she was in at 1 PM on the 26th, her death would have had to have occurred between 11 PM and 1 AM the previous night. Digestion is metabolic and all metabolic processes stop at death immediately. There is no further digestion of food or movement through the digestive system. The pineapple was in her system about 2 hours before she died. There is no way to reconcile the stage of rigor with the position of the pineapple. They both need to have occurred the previous evening and not close to the 6 AM 911 call. The pineapple would have had to be eaten around 4 AM, but rigor would not have been as advanced as it was if that had happened.
So while the liver stab and vitreous eye fluid sample would certainly have been helpful, the TOD can be established other ways.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

1. Why do you need three people to kidnap one little girl? Who says they wanted to kidnap? Here you go believing the RN again.
Bank heists have been committed with less manpower. And more manpower.

2. Three people in the house? The Ramseys must be REAL sound sleepers in order not to hear that many people in the house. No problem they were trained.
3. How the heck did they get these three guys in the house anyway? Through that same broken window? Thru the front door.
4. Wouldn't the third person be better served staying in the getaway car? or even staying behind to write a proper ransom note or make the expected phone call? I figure the fourth and fifth persons were doing just that.

5. More importantly....why should we believe anything the ransom note writer says? I for one am not ready to discard the entire contents of the ransom note out of hand. The murder of a child is too important to discard so much potentially important information. Better to figure out what is real and what isn't. Murder was pretty easy for the writer to accomplish...how hard could lying be for him? Who said there was no lying?

6. If there are three intruders involved...they could have done a lot more than just kidnap Jonbenet. They could have at the least killed Burke as well. Right, but they didn't.
Heck they could have killed the whole Ramsey family and burned the whole house down. They could have ransacked the whole house and made off with some decent money. Who says they wanted money?

and yet the best these three guys could do is kill and molest a little girl..:waitasec: Is there some rule that states we know everything that happened, just because JBR was found sexually assaulted and murdered?

7. Three intruders would seem more than capable of pulling off a succesfull kidnapping. Which would be very profitable for all three men. Why didn;t they just kidnap her in the first place instead of killing her? They didn't want money.

8. why would three armed men be afraid of the Ramsey family? They could kill all of them anytime they wished to. What was John, Burke or Patsy going to do? They were not afraid.

No, sorry.
There is no way that there were multiple intruders in that house.

OK no way multiple intruders. I can understand why you would believe that.

 

[MurriFlower]

While the coroner did a poor cursory examination if the body in situ the stages of rigor and the arc it makes are not that variable in room temperature. Though it was a basement, it is still considered room (indoor) temperature. It was above freezing there, and actually their basement was described as being warm. .

It was mostly below ground level which I suspect would have kept the temperature relatively even.

With JB in the state she was in at 1 PM on the 26th, her death would have had to have occurred between 11 PM and 1 AM the previous night.
So while the liver stab and vitreous eye fluid sample would certainly have been helpful, the TOD can be established other ways

No, you are assuming again. You do not know what state her body was in at 3pm (when the ME arrived) on the 26th as the autopsy was not performed until the following morning.

Digestion is metabolic and all metabolic processes stop at death immediately. There is no further digestion of food or movement through the digestive system. The pineapple was in her system about 2 hours before she died.

I think we've established that the rate of digestion of pineapple depends on the source of your information. If she was taken from her bed as late as 4am and fed pineapple then she could have died at 6am and the stage of digestion would theoretically be the same.

There is no way to reconcile the stage of rigor with the position of the pineapple. They both need to have occurred the previous evening and not close to the 6 AM 911 call. The pineapple would have had to be eaten around 4 AM, but rigor would not have been as advanced as it was if that had happened.

If she had died at 6am and she was not found until 1.30pm, and not examined until 3pm, that is still 9 hours from the latest time she may have died and there is every likelihood that rigor would have been as advanced by that stage.

Again, you are assuming too much. I think there is still a window of 10pm until 6am in which she could have been killed.

 

[DeeDee249]

The coroner came to examine her at the R home at 8 PM. The autopsy took place the next morning at around 8 AM. By then rigor was beginning to pass off- 12 hours to form, 12 hours in full rigor, 12 hours to subside- making a 36 hour arc. JB was in the final third.
Don't know where you saw that the ME came at 3 PM.

 

[madeleine]

LHP turned over to the cops notepad paper from R's.

LHP had the TIME to study PR's handwriting,had access to the pad before the murder.We don/t know when exactly the RN was written,maybe the R's didn't even notice that some pages were gone days before the crime.

 

[MurriFlower]

The coroner came to examine her at the R home at 8 PM. The autopsy took place the next morning at around 8 AM. By then rigor was beginning to pass off- 12 hours to form, 12 hours in full rigor, 12 hours to subside- making a 36 hour arc. JB was in the final third.
Don't know where you saw that the ME came at 3 PM.

Yes, 20.20 that evening. Don't know why I thought it was 3pm, but maybe that was the time the R's left the house or it may have been when the Cops arrived to secure the scene?? No matter, it doesn't really contradict what I was thinking.

She was last seen at 10pm on the 26th found at 1.30pm on the 27th, examined at 8.20pm on the 27th and autopsied at 8am on the 28th. Death could have occurred any time between 10pm of the 26th and 6am on the 27th. So when she was found was in the range of 15.5 and 7.5 hours after death. She was examined 7 hrs after after this initially (22.5 - 14.5 after TOD) and autopsied another 12 hours later (34.5 - 26.5 after TOD). According to the information below, rigor mortis begins to reverse after about 28 hours. This is all fairly approximate as it depends on the body temperature and the ambient temperature, which we don't know. However, I think you'll can see that there is still a fairly large window of time that death could have occurred given the condition of the body.

Here's some info I found about the stages of death:

* Moment of Death:
1} The heart stops
2} The skin gets tight and grey in color
3} All the muscles relax
4} The bladder and bowels empty
5} The body's temperature will typically drop 1.5 degrees F. per hour unless outside environment is a factor. The liver is the organ that stays warmest the longest, and this temperature is used to establish time of death if the body is found within that time frame.

* After 30 minutes:
6} The skin gets purple and waxy
7} The lips, finger- and toe nails fade to a pale color or turn white as the blood leaves.
8} Blood pools at the lowest parts of the body leaving a dark purple-black stain called lividity
9} The hands and feet turn blue
10} The eyes start to sink into the skull

* After 4 hours:
11} Rigor mortis starts to set in
12} The purpling of the skin and pooling of blood continue
13} Rigor Mortis begins to tighten the muscles for about another 24 hours, then will reverse and the body will return to a limp state.

* After 12 hours:
14} The body is in full rigor mortis.

* After 24 hours:
15} The body is now the temperature of the surrounding environment
16} In males, the semen dies
17} The head and neck are now a greenish-blue color
18} The greenish-blue color continues to spread to the rest of the body
19} There is the strong smell of rotting meat
20} The face of the person is essentially no longer recognizable

 

[wddarlin]

Yes, 20.20 that evening. Don't know why I thought it was 3pm, but maybe that was the time the R's left the house or it may have been when the Cops arrived to secure the scene?? No matter, it doesn't really contradict what I was thinking.

She was last seen at 10pm on the 26th found at 1.30pm on the 27th, examined at 8.20pm on the 27th and autopsied at 8am on the 28th. Death could have occurred any time between 10pm of the 26th and 6am on the 27th. So when she was found was in the range of 15.5 and 7.5 hours after death. She was examined 7 hrs after after this initially (22.5 - 14.5 after TOD) and autopsied another 12 hours later (34.5 - 26.5 after TOD). According to the information below, rigor mortis begins to reverse after about 28 hours. This is all fairly approximate as it depends on the body temperature and the ambient temperature, which we don't know. However, I think you'll can see that there is still a fairly large window of time that death could have occurred given the condition of the body.

Here's some info I found about the stages of death:

* Moment of Death:
1} The heart stops
2} The skin gets tight and grey in color
3} All the muscles relax
4} The bladder and bowels empty
5} The body's temperature will typically drop 1.5 degrees F. per hour unless outside environment is a factor. The liver is the organ that stays warmest the longest, and this temperature is used to establish time of death if the body is found within that time frame.

* After 30 minutes:
6} The skin gets purple and waxy
7} The lips, finger- and toe nails fade to a pale color or turn white as the blood leaves.
8} Blood pools at the lowest parts of the body leaving a dark purple-black stain called lividity
9} The hands and feet turn blue
10} The eyes start to sink into the skull

* After 4 hours:
11} Rigor mortis starts to set in
12} The purpling of the skin and pooling of blood continue
13} Rigor Mortis begins to tighten the muscles for about another 24 hours, then will reverse and the body will return to a limp state.

* After 12 hours:
14} The body is in full rigor mortis.

* After 24 hours:
15} The body is now the temperature of the surrounding environment
16} In males, the semen dies
17} The head and neck are now a greenish-blue color
18} The greenish-blue color continues to spread to the rest of the body
19} There is the strong smell of rotting meat
20} The face of the person is essentially no longer recognizable

Not sure where this info came from but I can tell you from Personal experience this is not necessarily true. My father had told all of us he was going to a dance over the weekend. So we didn't worry when he didn't answer his phone that weekend. He was last seen on Friday working in his yard. His neighbor said on Friday he told her his carpal tunnel was giving him h*ll so he was going to lie down. What actually was happening is he was having a major heart attack. On Monday his girlfriend found him. He passed on Friday but when I got to the scene on Monday he was quite recognizable! Yes he was discolored but it was a purple color! I don't post much but I read number 20} I had to reply.

 

[MurriFlower]

Not sure where this info came from but I can tell you from Personal experience this is not necessarily true. My father had told all of us he was going to a dance over the weekend. So we didn't worry when he didn't answer his phone that weekend. He was last seen on Friday working in his yard. His neighbor said on Friday he told her his carpal tunnel was giving him h*ll so he was going to lie down. What actually was happening is he was having a major heart attack. On Monday his girlfriend found him. He passed on Friday but when I got to the scene on Monday he was quite recognizable! Yes he was discolored but it was a purple color! I don't post much but I read number 20} I had to reply.

Yeah, I wondered about that too. This is quite a common list on the net. It actually goes on to three weeks PM, but that's not a pretty thought.

 

[Mastermind]

2. Three people in the house? The Ramseys must be REAL sound sleepers in order not to hear that many people in the house. No problem they were trained.

Trained? By who
1. CIA?
2. Yoda?
3. Ninja Turtles?
4. Ras Al-Ghul?

You honestly believe that three highly trained infiltration experts snatched one little girl just to kill her in the house?

And that these highly trained personally couldn;t kidnap her for real and get half a million dollars back from the Ramseys?

Sigh, if only Al-Quaida had such small goals.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Trained? By who
1. CIA?
2. Yoda?
3. Ninja Turtles?
4. Ras Al-Ghul?

You honestly believe that three highly trained infiltration experts snatched one little girl just to kill her in the house?

And that these highly trained personally couldn;t kidnap her for real and get half a million dollars back from the Ramseys?

Sigh, if only Al-Quaida had such small goals.

5. Some smarta$$ who thinks he/she knows everything?

 

[Mastermind]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind View Post
Trained? By who
1. CIA?
2. Yoda?
3. Ninja Turtles?
4. Ras Al-Ghul?

You honestly believe that three highly trained infiltration experts snatched one little girl just to kill her in the house?

And that these highly trained personally couldn;t kidnap her for real and get half a million dollars back from the Ramseys?

Sigh, if only Al-Quaida had such small goals.
5. Some smarta$$ who thinks he/she knows everything?

All kidding aside, you seriously believe these 3 individuals were "highly trained"?

Do you think they received special forces training?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

All kidding aside, you seriously believe these 3 individuals were "highly trained"?

Do you think they received special forces training?

All kidding aside?

Yes. I believe they had training not unlike special forces training.

 

[Mastermind]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind View Post
All kidding aside, you seriously believe these 3 individuals were "highly trained"?

Do you think they received special forces training?
All kidding aside?

Yes. I believe they had training not unlike special forces training.
__________________

Let me get this straight, 3 specialist,

1. Decide to use their skills to murder one little girl in a house. When they easily could have kidnapped any number of ways outside of the house. Like the bunch of times she was backstage at beauty pagents. Or the number of times she was alone with cameramen.

2. Rather than use their skills to kidnap the both Ramsey kids and get a million dollar ransom, they simply decide to just kill the weakest child and gain absolutely nothing for their troubles.

3. With all the skills they learned, putting three full sized guys moving in the house is the ideal sitiuation to kidnap one little girl? Nobody left behind to keep the getaway car, started? Nobody to stand guard on the outside with a walkie-talkie?

4. if these guys are so great at stealth...why was one of them wearing boots instead of sneakers?

 

[sindydee]

it would be interesting to see what the FBI STATS are on parents killing their child and making it look like a sexual predator has attacked. If I have missed this somewhere I apologise. But still, why a ransom note on some child that is going to be abducted, drafted twice in the parents own home. I have no idea on the STATS on this but guess they are minute. Questions that have no answers. sorry.

 

[DeeDee249]

That indicates the 36-hour arc I mentioned- "rigor mortis continues to tighten the muscles for 24 hrs, then it begins to reverse". The reversal takes about 12 hours to reach secondary flaccidity. Immediately at death, the body goes limp and that is primary flaccidity. After the (approx) 36 hour arc of rigor building and receding, the body goes limp once again.
When we see the autopsy photos of JB on the table, we see her hands (still in the white shirt with her ring on her fingers. Her hands are limp, and so are her arms. When we see the first photos, taken in situ on the loving room rug, we see her arms bet up at the elbow, with her hands in brown paper bags (standard procedure). In this photo, she is in full rigor.
The later photo, taken in the morgue, rigor has already subsided in her elbows and hands. Rigor builds from the smaller muscle groups to the larger (first- eyelids, jaws, shoulders, elbows, hands then hips, knees. When it subsides, it follows the same pattern, with the elbows hands, etc, first. That is in keeping with my timeline of death at around midnight- 1 AM. Sometimes the coroner will have to break rigor manually, but in JB's case I doubt it was necessary. By the time he was ready to perform the autopsy she had been dead about 30 hours or more.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Let me get this straight, 3 specialist,

1. Decide to use their skills to murder one little girl in a house. When they easily could have kidnapped any number of ways outside of the house. Like the bunch of times she was backstage at beauty pagents. Or the number of times she was alone with cameramen. OK we'll ignore the nighttime event following a tiring holiday day. We'll just ignore that.

2. Rather than use their skills to kidnap the both Ramsey kids and get a million dollar ransom, they simply decide to just kill the weakest child and gain absolutely nothing for their troubles. You've no idea what the killer gained or didn't gain regardless of who it was.

3. With all the skills they learned, putting three full sized guys moving in the house is the ideal sitiuation to kidnap one little girl? Nobody left behind to keep the getaway car, started? Nobody to stand guard on the outside with a walkie-talkie? I don't know anything about 'full size guys'. You're writing a fiction or what?

4. if these guys are so great at stealth...why was one of them wearing boots instead of sneakers?Army boots.

You're carrying on an argument with yourself.

I never said there were ONLY three people. There was probably no. 4 and 5 in the van around the corner. Didn't somebody report a van or something?