PR/JR wrote the RN to explain their dead daughter in basement

[MurriFlower]

When we see the first photos, taken in situ on the loving room rug, we see her arms bet up at the elbow, with her hands in brown paper bags (standard procedure). In this photo, she is in full rigor.

Link please?

 

[DeeDee249]

Link please?

You can see the paper bag on her hand at the upper right of the photo. You can see the pattern of the living room rug at the upper left corner. In this photo, we can see how her arms are bent at the elbow almost at a right angle and NOT extended straight up over her head as depicted in the (very misleading) drawing we have all seen. When Arndt describes her arms as being " over her head without support" that is misleading, too because her arms were up and out in front of her (like a boxer's), thought I suppose could have been described as over her head, it was more accurate to say they were over her face. Still, without being in full rigor, they would not have been like that. The coroner's ruler can be seen over her face.

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceathouse.jpg

 

[nobull]

Let me get this straight, 3 specialist,

1. Decide to use their skills to murder one little girl in a house. When they easily could have kidnapped any number of ways outside of the house. Like the bunch of times she was backstage at beauty pagents. Or the number of times she was alone with cameramen. OK we'll ignore the nighttime event following a tiring holiday day. We'll just ignore that.

2. Rather than use their skills to kidnap the both Ramsey kids and get a million dollar ransom, they simply decide to just kill the weakest child and gain absolutely nothing for their troubles. You've no idea what the killer gained or didn't gain regardless of who it was.

3. With all the skills they learned, putting three full sized guys moving in the house is the ideal sitiuation to kidnap one little girl? Nobody left behind to keep the getaway car, started? Nobody to stand guard on the outside with a walkie-talkie? I don't know anything about 'full size guys'. You're writing a fiction or what?

4. if these guys are so great at stealth...why was one of them wearing boots instead of sneakers? Army boots.

You're carrying on an argument with yourself.

I never said there were ONLY three people. There was probably no. 4 and 5 in the van around the corner. Didn't somebody report a van or something?

This just gets better.

So, you're thinking a van with 4 or 5 children, little people and/or women, one of whom wore army boots, did the deed?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

This just gets better.

So, you're thinking a van with 4 or 5 children, little people and/or women, one of whom wore army boots, did the deed?

I don't know where 4 or 5 children, little people and/or women came from.

I'm sure between you and mastermind there's a fictional book? Just a suggestion.

 

[nobull]

But you stated, "I don't know anything about 'full size guys'." So, if not full-sized guys, what were the IDI's, exactly?

 

[MurriFlower]

But you stated, "I don't know anything about 'full size guys'." So, if not full-sized guys, what were the IDI's, exactly?

Originally Posted by Mastermind View Post
Let me get this straight, 3 specialist,

1. Decide to use their skills to murder one little girl in a house. When they easily could have kidnapped any number of ways outside of the house. Like the bunch of times she was backstage at beauty pagents. Or the number of times she was alone with cameramen.

HOTYH: OK we'll ignore the nighttime event following a tiring holiday day. We'll just ignore that.

2. Rather than use their skills to kidnap the both Ramsey kids and get a million dollar ransom, they simply decide to just kill the weakest child and gain absolutely nothing for their troubles.

HIOTYH: You've no idea what the killer gained or didn't gain regardless of who it was.

3. With all the skills they learned, putting three full sized guys moving in the house is the ideal sitiuation to kidnap one little girl? Nobody left behind to keep the getaway car, started? Nobody to stand guard on the outside with a walkie-talkie?

HOTYH: I don't know anything about 'full size guys'. You're writing a fiction or what?

4. if these guys are so great at stealth...why was one of them wearing boots instead of sneakers?

HOTYH: Army boots.

You're carrying on an argument with yourself.

I never said there were ONLY three people. There was probably no. 4 and 5 in the van around the corner. Didn't somebody report a van or something?

I've repeated the conversation with HOTYH's responses in blue.

Now is this any clearer nobull?

Between Mastermind asking and answering his own questions and you not reading anyone's questions or answers, you are both just wasting our time.

 

[nobull]

I've repeated the conversation with HOTYH's responses in blue.

Now is this any clearer nobull?

Between Mastermind asking and answering his own questions and you not reading anyone's questions or answers, you are both just wasting our time.

And I quoted HOTYH's responses. In blue.

I'm simply trying to figure out this devious IDI theory. I mean, HOTYH presented there was a van around the corner, 4-5 people involved but NOT 'full sized guys'.

Either there's a theory there or not. I would ask WHO exactly is wasting who's time?

 

[UKGuy]

You can see the paper bag on her hand at the upper right of the photo. You can see the pattern of the living room rug at the upper left corner. In this photo, we can see how her arms are bent at the elbow almost at a right angle and NOT extended straight up over her head as depicted in the (very misleading) drawing we have all seen. When Arndt describes her arms as being " over her head without support" that is misleading, too because her arms were up and out in front of her (like a boxer's), thought I suppose could have been described as over her head, it was more accurate to say they were over her face. Still, without being in full rigor, they would not have been like that. The coroner's ruler can be seen over her face.

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceathouse.jpg

DeeDee249,
Interesting remarks. Does the pineapple residue not offer upper and lower bounds for her death?

The wine-cellar as the original location for JonBenets death seems unlikely to me, although not implausable. If she had been discovered in her bed then an IDI could not be ruled out. So for me the wine-cellar suggests staging.

With her hands up or over her face does this suggest a reflex posture to being whacked on the head whilst still alive or is it possible they arrived in that position due to her being manually redressed?

Her post-mortem posture merits further discussion.


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[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Interesting remarks. Does the pineapple residue not offer upper and lower bounds for her death?

The wine-cellar as the original location for JonBenets death seems unlikely to me, although not implausable. If she had been discovered in her bed then an IDI could not be ruled out. So for me the wine-cellar suggests staging.

With her hands up or over her face does this suggest a reflex posture to being whacked on the head whilst still alive or is it possible they arrived in that position due to her being manually redressed?

Her post-mortem posture merits further discussion.


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As rigor mortis advances, the muscles ratchet tighter and tighter, as they are unable to relax, and her arms could have been pulled up into that position as that process continued. As far as a reflex in response to being hit- I don't think so. If she had put her arms up in a defensive posture, they wouldn't have stayed that way. At the first moment of death, the entire body goes limp, as all muscles enter the stage called "primary flaccidity".
There are cases where severe head injuries cause the arms to curl up like that after death. But in this case, I think her arms may have been placed at her sides or across her stomach when she was wrapped in the blanket and rigor mortis pulled them up.
Or, since evidence suggests she was on her stomach when strangled (the anterior urine stains and the knot at the back of the neck), her arms may have been in that position (bent at the elbow against her chest underneath her) and remained that way. However, this is less likely because of the livor mortis pattern, which tells us that she was placed on her back within the first 15-20 minutes of death, probably before rigor in her arms would have gotten to that stage.

 

[UKGuy]

As rigor mortis advances, the muscles ratchet tighter and tighter, as they are unable to relax, and her arms could have been pulled up into that position as that process continued. As far as a reflex in response to being hit- I don't think so. If she had put her arms up in a defensive posture, they wouldn't have stayed that way. At the first moment of death, the entire body goes limp, as all muscles enter the stage called "primary flaccidity".
There are cases where severe head injuries cause the arms to curl up like that after death. But in this case, I think her arms may have been placed at her sides or across her stomach when she was wrapped in the blanket and rigor mortis pulled them up.
Or, since evidence suggests she was on her stomach when strangled (the anterior urine stains and the knot at the back of the neck), her arms may have been in that position (bent at the elbow against her chest underneath her) and remained that way. However, this is less likely because of the livor mortis pattern, which tells us that she was placed on her back within the first 15-20 minutes of death, probably before rigor in her arms would have gotten to that stage.

DeeDee249,

Well accepting everything you say, I reckon the wine-cellar was all staging, and if

the livor mortis pattern, which tells us that she was placed on her back within the first 15-20 minutes of death,

Then it looks to me as if the head bash finished her off, with the cord applied as staging, since everytime I look at those post-mortem photos, the lower abrasions on her neck jump out me as not being consistent with the neat circumferential furrow above.

That is the the livor mortis pattern seems to contradict her being killed elsewhere in the house?


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[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

Well accepting everything you say, I reckon the wine-cellar was all staging, and if

Then it looks to me as if the head bash finished her off, with the cord applied as staging, since everytime I look at those post-mortem photos, the lower abrasions on her neck jump out me as not being consistent with the neat circumferential furrow above.

That is the the livor mortis pattern seems to contradict her being killed elsewhere in the house?


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Don't be confused by that large, triangular neck abrasion. That is not the product of livor mortis. Rather, that is likely blood pooling under a pressure point as the ligature was twisted, above and below the place where pressure was greatest. If you search certain sites, you'll see other photos of other strangulation victims showing the identical marks.

 

[MurriFlower]

Don't be confused by that large, triangular neck abrasion. That is not the product of livor mortis. Rather, that is likely blood pooling under a pressure point as the ligature was twisted, above and below the place where pressure was greatest. If you search certain sites, you'll see other photos of other strangulation victims showing the identical marks.

Or it could have been inflicted by an object the same shape as the 'abrasion'. Perhaps the muzzle of a hand gun? Considering that the head wound is also consistent with the shape of the butt (magazine) of said hand gun, it is a distinct possibility.

 

[DeeDee249]

Or it could have been inflicted by an object the same shape as the 'abrasion'. Perhaps the muzzle of a hand gun? Considering that the head wound is also consistent with the shape of the butt (magazine) of said hand gun, it is a distinct possibility.

I have hand guns, and none have that double triangular shape. Please see for yourself the photos of other strangulation victims that have nearly identical marks. If the perp had a hand gun, why not shoot her? Why not shoot the whole family, if you have such a problem with JR?

 

[UKGuy]

Don't be confused by that large, triangular neck abrasion. That is not the product of livor mortis. Rather, that is likely blood pooling under a pressure point as the ligature was twisted, above and below the place where pressure was greatest. If you search certain sites, you'll see other photos of other strangulation victims showing the identical marks.

DeeDee249,

I agree most likely not livor mortis, but I'm not settled on the cause of the triangular neck abrasion, from memory some abrasions like this are caused by hanging or suspension with the body hanging to the left or right thus causing a noticable abrasion on one side of the neck rather than a circumferential furrow.

I think I'll pursue the PDI with John undoing it and actually completely changing the staging put in place by Patsy. I'm convinced all three residents were involved in a staged coverup e.g. BR lying in bed faking being asleep, did he not sit with JonBenet as she ate her pineapple, did he not state that she walked into the house the night before?

So in a sense we have four possibilities PDI, JDI, BDI or IDI. IDI is ruled out due to a lack of corroborative evidence. Now as some have suggested BDI might unite John and Patsy to stage in his defense, but from memory there is little evidence linking Burke. So its PDI or JDI.

Its difficult to find a direct motive for John other than the prior abuse allegations. Whilst as you know nearly everything has been dreamt up to implicate Patsy.

I'll maybe start a new thread for these thoughts unless it has been covered in my absence?

.

 

[Linda7NJ]

didn't someone ( expert ) say once that she was indeed hung and was cut down? Was it John Welsh?

Honestly, I can't remember who stated it...but it was glossed over real quick and I never heard another word about it. I've often wondered if that indeed was the case and something LE was holding back.

 

[UKGuy]

didn't someone ( expert ) say once that she was indeed hung and was cut down? Was it John Welsh?

Honestly, I can't remember who stated it...but it was glossed over real quick and I never heard another word about it. I've often wondered if that indeed was the case and something LE was holding back.

Linda7NJ,

From memory I think this is third person comment, similar to the absence of footprints in the snow.

But suspension or hanging remains a possibility since it would explain some of the forensic evidence including the asphyxia.


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[Linda7NJ]

Linda7NJ,

From memory I think this is third person comment, similar to the absence of footprints in the snow.

But suspension or hanging remains a possibility since it would explain some of the forensic evidence including the asphyxia.


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It would clear up a few things wouldn't it?

 

[UKGuy]

It would clear up a few things wouldn't it?

Linda7NJ,

It could be factored into another theory as the assumed cause of death. Some have done this already with an Erotic Asphyxiation theory implicating Burke.

 

[DeeDee249]

Linda7NJ,

From memory I think this is third person comment, similar to the absence of footprints in the snow.

But suspension or hanging remains a possibility since it would explain some of the forensic evidence including the asphyxia.


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Never happened. The livor mortis patterns, as well as the FACT that her wrists bear NO marks to suggest they were ever bound. Also, a hanging victim will have markedly different ligature furrows- pulled up close under the chin and an open space at the back or the mark goes up near the nape of the neck in back or side. JB's ligature furrow was circumferential. Almost parallel all around. She was not suspended.

 

[BBB167893]

didn't someone ( expert ) say once that she was indeed hung and was cut down? Was it John Welsh?

Honestly, I can't remember who stated it...but it was glossed over real quick and I never heard another word about it. I've often wondered if that indeed was the case and something LE was holding back.

Yes, he stated that as a throwaway remark back in the day. He's said a lot of things about this case that lacked accuracy.