premeditation

[pinkie60]

just for the record Beth and Dog Chapman the bounty hunter were on Show Biz tonite last night commenting on Casey Anthony and Jodi Arias. Dog said he thinks Jodi will kill again but not Casey. I trust his opinion and agree! I think the only ptsd JA suffers from is from being found out, arrested and put in jail.

 

[DebbieDaily]

Hey Midnight, I'm with you 100 percent about the stories of their sexual play that day. We can only hear from JA on this evidence and we all know she is lying and will continue to lie to protect herself.

It was my husband who pointed out to me that he believed there wasn't any sexual actions between them that day. He says that Travis was finished with her and probably would not have even touched her. Which in the end would make her even more furious with him and more than ready to carry out the punishment she planned for him. Like you post.

I agree with your husband. If you recall the email/text Travis wrote to Jodi on I think it was May 25? Where he calls her a sociopath and goes on to say she is the worst thing that ever happened to him. And he is also alluding to something that she did that went above and beyond anything he could ever forgive her for. A few days after this email is when Jodi stole her grandfather's gun and the planning started for his murder. This is why I do not believe Travis knew she was coming to visit him because knowing how he felt about her (his email to her) I do not think he would have let her into his house. He did not trust her anymore.

From what I understand there was a roommate in the house that morning until around 11 ish. Jodi would not want to be seen by anyone in the house because she needed to go undetected in order to kill him and have an alibi that she was not in Arizona. So I think she snuck in the house once Travis was alone. At one point I thought she did have sex with him before the shower, but now I'm having real doubts about this because I do not think Travis wanted anything to do with her anymore. I also do not believe the sex photos were taken by him because its my belief she made him aware and threatened him with the sex tape call and now he didnt trust her. If she did make him aware of the sex tape, why in his right mind would he then take sex pics with her.

I think the email he sent her on May 25th was in part due to him finding out about her secretly recording their sex talk. So I do not think he would be willing to then take sex pics with her.

 

[sweetmop]

Hey Midnight, I'm with you 100 percent about the stories of their sexual play that day. We can only hear from JA on this evidence and we all know she is lying and will continue to lie to protect herself.

It was my husband who pointed out to me that he believed there wasn't any sexual actions between them that day. He says that Travis was finished with her and probably would not have even touched her. Which in the end would make her even more furious with him and more than ready to carry out the punishment she planned for him. Like you post.

I have to say, the guys may really be on to something here! My husband said the same thing yours' did, azwriter! Hubby says that Travis was completely over JA, and the thought of even touching her probably made his skin crawl!
And no man had ever turned her down, I'm sure! That P****d her off! Scarey, but it does make alot of sense!

 

[AlwaysShocked]

FWIW the computer/camera expert testified that in his opinion the shots taken of Jodi's genitalia were taken by a person, not from the camer being on a timer. He said because of the angle of the shots.

So I do think they had sex that day.

And I think this was totally premediated. The room mates are lucky to be alive.

 

[wasnt_me]

Looking for people's thoughts on the proposition that the Defendant did not demonstrate premeditation due to the extended period of time she spent with the vic, including their activities, prior to the murder. Here, we know the Defendant spent the entire day with the vic. She didn't walk in and kill him in the doorway. Instead, she allowed him to have sex with her, they took a nap, layed around, even allowed him to take pictures of her in compromising positions.

If she went there with a premeditated and specific intent to kill, wouldn't the act have come much sooner rather than later? Spending 12 hours with your intended victim, taking pictures, being intimate, etc. could seem far beyond the logical point she should/could have emotionally gone, if murder was the sole reason for her visit. Can we say that this lady is actually that much of a psychopath, a black widow of the highest form, pleasuring herself for hours then killing her mate? Is that really this woman?

Looking for your thoughts on whether the 12 hours of leisure, sex, and pictures spent with the vic actually "kills" the State's premeditation theory. [Excuse the pun] Clearly, a juror could find her not "evil" enough to follow the State down this particular theoretical path due to the substantial period of time she spent with the vic prior to the homicide. I'm on the fence, but would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks from the "newbie"!!

I disagree because I think she planned to do the sex tape and then kill him, so she'd be the last person he'd ever have sex with. She couldn't have her chance the night before, because as it seems, he wasn't trying to have sex the night before or she was just too damn tired from driving.

In my opinion, the sex tape phone call, finding out about Travis wanting to marry Mimi, and learning that mimi would go on the trip that Jodi had worked to help Travis get on--and a trip that was no doubt on Travis' list that he'd take without Jodi--made her decide that she was going to give him his sex tape, and if he still came talking about taking Mimi to Cancun, he'd get shot. I don't think she premeditated stabbing him. I think he knocked the gun out of her hand and the knife was still in the bathroom, so she went for it.

I also thought premeditation could be formed up to as close as a few minutes before the act?

 

[wasnt_me]

I don't think the State has to try too hard to show premeditation, the moment she changed weapons premeditation is evident as pointed out by another poster's husband. I hadn't looked at it that way but he's absolutely right, why the change of weapons? JA had to put one down and pick up the other, that act, in and of itself, shows premeditation, IMO.

I agree. If Jodi had just wanted "to get away" from Travis, or however she termed that, why not just get away instead of picking up another weapon to do more damage? Once you pick up a new weapon, this is an indication that you want the fight--especially after one of the weapons had already caused mortal damage.

I can understand if she had the gun, Travis knocked it out of her hand and kept coming, so she grabbed whatever was near, which happened to be a knife. BUT I get lost when I have to accept 27 stab wounds, 11 of which in his back, a slashed throat AND a gun shot. I cannot believe that Travis was a treat to the point of this excessive force.

If she'd shot him first, I see no need for the knife at all, because if she'd turned around to find the knife, then she had time to look at where Travis was, see that he was on the writhing in pain, and she could have run out. Even if she'd located the knife and then looked around for Travis' location, I'm sure she could have seen that it was now easy for her to get away from the man with the gun shot wound to the head. There is no need to approach him with a knife, even if he is alive and possibly moving, he can no longer be moving fast enough to do her any serious damage--especially after the time it took to re-locate the knife.

That's why she's trying to explain her overkill as this incredible terror of Travis because he'd hit and kicked her before. She's trying to use battered syndrome to make us believe that she believed he'd come after her as he had before, but she has NOT sufficiently convinced me that he battered her like a "real" battered woman's syndrome typically indicates. Plus, she is not like a battered woman because they feel that they can't leave the man or get away. She got away. She got away all the way to Yreka. What battered woman gets away all the way to Yreka and then drives all the way back to the abuser for sexy time?

I don't buy that Travis was into little boys. I don't buy that Travis was abusive to her. And even if he did hit her once or twice, she already got away from him. She went to Yreka. I can't get passed that.

 

[wasnt_me]

Otherwise, the jury would be instructed on "a reasonable person" or "objective" standard to determine whether the Defendant believed he/she was being threatened with deadly force (rather than non-deadly force). In Arizona, you can only deliver the same or similar force that is being threatened, in order to have a viable self defense claim. So offensive gestures by Travis to Jodi, in light of her ALLEGED history of domestic violence by him, can assist her defense in meeting the burden of proving that she believed she was going to be killed by him, and therefore, met the threat with equal force.

Would a normal person perceive being body slammed or rushed as deadly force? No. (It would be perceived as a battery, or agg batt, max). Therefore, since you can only defend yourself with the force threatened, Jodi's version normally wouldn't stand as a self defense claim. That is exactly why her defense team needed to bring in testimony of Travis' ALLEGED prior domestic violencei. It loosens the burden of proof from "objective" standard to "personal belief standard" as it relates to Jodi's perception of the amount of force being threatened by Travis. The aggressive texts to Jodi from Travis vowing revenge worked well to corroborate this defense. That's all they have, basically. (Skinny - real thin)

The main issue I have with it is that "aggressive texts" are a clear indicator NOT to take oneself to AZ where the "aggressor" is. Jodi was also not a DV victim. I don't think they proved that at all. Travis might have been a jerk. He might have manhandled her once or twice, I don't know, but she was not trapped mentally in a relationship with him, there's no such things as he wouldn't let her go. She was in Yreka and he had moved onto another woman. Abuser or not, Travis couldn't control her or make her come back and he didn't even follow through on going to Yreka to "control" her as a person committing DV might do.

Travis was mad at her. With reason. But I don't believe he was even concerned being with her, controlling her, abusing her, or anything else. I guess I see a person like what she's trying to make Travis out to be would be more aggressive in getting her back into his realm of control.

 

[wasnt_me]

To play 'devil's advocate', is it possible that she took a gun with her because she was afraid of Travis? Maybe she originally took it with her in order to defend herself and did not intend to kill, but ended up doing so out of fear.

I'm leaning towards premeditation but it scares me how people have already sentenced her to death.

That would work except she says she hadn't planned on seeing Travis. If she hadn't planned to see him, why bring a gun?

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Re: people have already sentenced her to death

Well, it IS a death penalty case. And unlike the jury members, we do not have to wait until all evidence has been presented to make up our minds about her guilt.

So it follows, that if one has made up one's mind about guilt, the next thing to be looked at is punishment.

 

[wasnt_me]

To me, the clincher is the gun. She shot Travis,she admits this!There is no reason to ditch the gun...unless it was the Grandfather's and that would prove premeditation. If it was Travis' why dump it? She is guilty...death penalty.

It seems as if she might have taken everything that she brought. The rope, the gun, her clothes. If it belonged to travis, she left it. The sheets, the camera, and probably the knife. There was no reason not to take EVERYTHING in a garbage bag and then burn it in the desert--unless you're trying to not call attention to it. A knife in the dishwasher that's normal. Sheets in the washing machine, normal. Camera in it? Not normal, though. That's something I actually thing she might have done on accident.

If Jodi is really such a "literal" person as she portrays herself, I can see that being why she left everything that belonged to Travis there.

I wonder if the roommates would possibly recall if the dishwasher had bee run? I bet they do not want to eat off those dishes any more if it had been.

 

[Sherazhad]

My fear in this trial is that the jury will not agree on this factor. Martinez is doing a great job & I hope he keeps hammering home the multiple indicators of premeditation:
1. She didn't tell anyone or write in her journal that she was going to see Travis
2. Why the need for so much gas unless she was planning a longer journey?
3. The gun-the only logical explanation is that is the 1 allegedly stolen from her grandparents, the only reason to take the gun would be that it can be traced back to her
4. The number plates upside down so it would remain unrecognised
5. Her insistance on a less noticeable hire car
6. Her lack of remorse
7. Attacking someone when they are more vulnerable- naked & wet in the shower which also ensures he can't get to his phone to call 911
8. Not sure of this, but what did she do with her cell phone? as records would easily show which tower was connecting with her phone & place her at Travis's.
She definitely premeditated this murder, I just hope the jury se3e that too.

 

[wasnt_me]

What is the likelihood that her grandparents AND Travis had .25 cal. guns?

They must think we're stupid.

What is the likelihood that these two households happened to have the SAME cal guns, and in one house, the gun was stolen. But in the OTHER house someone was murdered with the same type of gun?

Add to it the likelihood that both of said households just HAPPENED to contain two people who had broken up with each other, and one of the two--the one that happens to be dead--was taking another woman on a dream trip, getting all fine and sexy for said trip and sending the person in the other household "screw you" emails for hacking his account.

I think it adds up to too many coincidences.

 

[Sherazhad]

I'm wondering about Jodi's cell phone in relation to the crime scene. In one respect, if the cell phone towers near Travis's house were pinging her phone that puts her at the scene. This would argue against premeditation as she was so careful with other things to avoid being attached to the scene of the crime, so why take her mobile there?
However the opposite is true if the tower didn't ping her phone. It indicates she thought ahead & didn't take her phone with her- premeditation. Sorry if this question was already answered. I only stumbled onto this case a few weeks ago.

 

[Nosey Parker]

I'm wondering about Jodi's cell phone in relation to the crime scene. In one respect, if the cell phone towers near Travis's house were pinging her phone that puts her at the scene. This would argue against premeditation as she was so careful with other things to avoid being attached to the scene of the crime, so why take her mobile there?
However the opposite is true if the tower didn't ping her phone. It indicates she thought ahead & didn't take her phone with her- premeditation. Sorry if this question was already answered. I only stumbled onto this case a few weeks ago.

She turned her cell phone off before entering Arizona (some even suspect she removed the battery to ensure no pinging). This was covered by the lie that she 1. to Ryan - forgot to bring her charger 2. in testimony - mislaid her charger, supposedly discovered under the car seat after she left Arizona. 3. to the jury - could not charge her cell phone at Travis' as his did not fit her phone.

There may have been more excuses, but that will do for now. :floorlaugh:

 

[azwriter]

My fear in this trial is that the jury will not agree on this factor. Martinez is doing a great job & I hope he keeps hammering home the multiple indicators of premeditation:
1. She didn't tell anyone or write in her journal that she was going to see Travis
2. Why the need for so much gas unless she was planning a longer journey?
3. The gun-the only logical explanation is that is the 1 allegedly stolen from her grandparents, the only reason to take the gun would be that it can be traced back to her
4. The number plates upside down so it would remain unrecognised
5. Her insistance on a less noticeable hire car
6. Her lack of remorse
7. Attacking someone when they are more vulnerable- naked & wet in the shower which also ensures he can't get to his phone to call 911
8. Not sure of this, but what did she do with her cell phone? as records would easily show which tower was connecting with her phone & place her at Travis's.
She definitely premeditated this murder, I just hope the jury se3e that too.

This is an excellent post. It deals not just with the gun, but all the steps Jodi took to hide the fact she was headed somewhere she didn't want others to know.

I can add another tatic. It's possible there is evidence that she even changed her hair color. Going from her well-recognized blonde to a brown is evidence she was trying to disguise herself.

As for the extra gasoline stored in her trunk. Please. I live in AZ and on trips we make to Pasadena, never once have we set in a supply of gasoline. There are call phones alongside the steep roads and flat deserts from here to there. And, having driven it day and night, there is enough traffic in case you break down or run out of fuel. Sure, it's risky to have someone stop and not know who they are and if they can be trusted. But that is all part of traveling by car in this country.

Common sense causes us to ask "Is this stockpiling of gas a usual travel method for her?"

For safety sake it is better to tell friends or family of your travel plans, routes and destinations in case they do need to search for you should something happen. She ignored this ritual. But yet tells of her concern of being stuck without gas.

I'm sure the jury panel will use their common sense to see that she was up to something with all the precautions she took to keep her trip a secret.

jmO

 

[Sherazhad]

Thanks for the extra info Noseyparker & Azwriter. The issue with the phone is a huge issue pointing towards premeditation. Jodi strikes me as the sort of woman who feels naked without her cell phone, there's no way that if she forgot her charger she wouldn't go to the nearest store to pick one up. Also is there evidence she bought a new one as she was able to call Travis's cell & ryan before she was able to go home to get her charger?

 

[Lazerus]

Rental car, gas cans, license plates, dyed hair, dead cell phone, etc. all show she spent a great deal of time premeditating the murder. I'm sure her plan included a vision of exactly how the murder was to be committed, but I wrestle with what that vision might be. Did she intend to stage an apparent suicide (shoot Travis in the head, put the gun in his hand, and leave him in the shower not realizing the rarity of .25 cal handguns)? Suicide staging of another variety perhaps (she sure likes the use of the word 'noose' when testifying about the rope and knots)? Was Travis, with his hands tied and his mouth duct-taped, to be marched to the rental car and hauled to the desert for an execution? Was the new Cancun girl to be framed for the murder or to be included as an additional victim? I just don't believe her approach would be, "I'll show up with a gun and knife and just wing it from there." I feel confident things didn't go according to her original plan. Pondering what that original plan might have been is the area that keeps me drawn to this case and keeps me coming to this board hoping that others smarter than me and more familiar with the case can help me sort it out. :banghead:

 

[Nosey Parker]

Thanks for the extra info Noseyparker & Azwriter. The issue with the phone is a huge issue pointing towards premeditation. Jodi strikes me as the sort of woman who feels naked without her cell phone, there's no way that if she forgot her charger she wouldn't go to the nearest store to pick one up. Also is there evidence she bought a new one as she was able to call Travis's cell & ryan before she was able to go home to get her charger?

No new charger. She supposedly found hers under the seat while cleaning up in the desert, and was then able to use the phone.

 

[geevee]

No new charger. She supposedly found hers under the seat while cleaning up in the desert, and was then able to use the phone.

She also told Det. Flores that she had a wall charger and planned to use that when she got somewhere she could, the only reason I remembered her saying that (and watched the tape again to be sure) is she responded to a jury question that she didn't have a wall charger and Travis' wouldn't fit her phone.

I am curious about something, maybe someone more familiar with digital cameras can answer - could the pictures (or some of the pictures) on the memory stick have been taken with another camera and then inserted into TA's camera? If yes, could more pics have been taken with TA's camera and they follow on the stick like they were in sequence with ones taken before?

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Yes, images can be transferred from a computer to a camera card. So to copy images from a phone or from another camera onto your camera, you would need to first copy the images onto your computer, using the proper camera to usb port or phone to usb port cord. Then hook up your camera to the computer using the proper cord (camera to usb port). Then copy images from computer to the second camera.