Psychological Markers

[waltzingmatilda]

The thought occured to me when I saw the dramatization of the 2 women 'asleep' in bed at the motel party in the Dark Minds episode that perhaps these women partied so hard, possibly for days, that they died in their sleep while in bed which would explain the absence of shoes. However, IMO he most likely kept the shoes as trophies.

Just a random thought.

wm

 

[Peter Brendt]

If the shoes were removed before death, there could also be a very practical reason. Think about the shoes a prostitute often wears: big boots, stiletto heels. Those things are gonna HURT and leave marks if you get kicked with them. Less of a struggle.

True. But the problem, I have is, I find a dozen reasons why the shoes are missing and another dozen reasons why they were placed face down and another dozen reasons, why they faced east. What we need is one consistent explanation for all the aspects. IMO (because I speak here about things, I learned over time). all such a killer does has some consistent overall fantasy. That's the reason to kill, to kill those victims, to drop them the way he did and it also includes all factors in the staging. The trouble is, we see only a part of the picture. Other parts may happened out of our sight. Bundy, or, for example Watts, burned victim's personal items/clothing as kind of the ritual later and not at the drop sites. So the question in this case would be, what did he with the shoes? Keeping them as souvenir? Gave them away? Burnt them? We don't know, but we know, there is another detail out of our reach. So, given, we don't see the complete picture, to ask for an explanation explaining at least the whole visible part is kind of a minimal requirement.
The point, why I am a little stubborn here is simple: Every SK is in the beginning of a case labeled "psychopath" or "sociopath". And from there follows the half-official admittance, that nobody knows how a psychopath thinks, so no need to try to understand - and that is, where the case usually gets cold. That was maybe valid in the early 70s, when a lot of research wasn't yet done. But today, we have such enormous amounts of comparison material, that we can look things up, even are allowed to draw own conclusions. If we do so, we end up finding out, a lot of those generalized "psychopath" labels are wrong, the variety is a big wider. How about delusional/missiion-driven? Or about delusional/paranoid-schizophrenic? To see, what this guy is, we need to look an as complete picture as possible, not just to focus on one detail. And before someone jumps on me again, that is all in my opinion, IMO, I think. You get the point.

 

[Peter Brendt]

The thought occured to me when I saw the dramatization of the 2 women 'asleep' in bed at the motel party in the Dark Minds episode that perhaps these women partied so hard, possibly for days, that they died in their sleep while in bed which would explain the absence of shoes. However, IMO he most likely kept the shoes as trophies.

Just a random thought.

wm

The souvenir thought has some merit, but then, why shoes? Why not curls, why not jewelry?

 

[Peter Brendt]

On a silly question aside, why are we doing this in a LISK thread? Did we carried away for a little or should we put this rather over to an AC thread?

 

[dc20015]

On a silly question aside, why are we doing this in a LISK thread? Did we carried away for a little or should we put this rather over to an AC thread?

I think it just started with the airing of Dark Minds and the fact that it suggested links between the 2. I agree, it should be moved from here on unless we're discussing links.

 

[truthspider]

If the shoes were removed before death, there could also be a very practical reason. Think about the shoes a prostitute often wears: big boots, stiletto heels. Those things are gonna HURT and leave marks if you get kicked with them. Less of a struggle.

comments/ideas like this are what keeps bringing me back to this forum, every once in a while, someone says something that hasn't been said or thought of. Thanks DC. That sounds like a perfectly good explanation if we are dealing with an experienced strangler.

Might I also add that this same reasoning could be applied to the request for some of the G4 to dress down, "jeans and a hooded sweatshirt etc"... If you aren't looking for an escort for the traditional role of being sexually aroused via heels and skirts, and you know how this plays out, then you would want them delivered exactly the way you want to suit your needs. It also makes me think that if that is the case, then maybe the whole thing goes down as a "car date" where it would be more difficult to ask them to take off boots or heels...

 

[MrsPC]

comments/ideas like this are what keeps bringing me back to this forum, every once in a while, someone says something that hasn't been said or thought of. Thanks DC.
That sounds like a perfectly good explanation if we are dealing with an experienced strangler.

Might I also add that this same reasoning could be applied to the request for some of the G4 to dress down, "jeans and a hooded sweatshirt"... If you aren't looking for an escort for the traditional role of being sexual aroused via heels and skirts, and you know how this plays out, then you would want them delivered exactly the way you want to suit your needs. It also makes me think that if that is the case, then maybe the whole thing goes down as a "car date" where it is difficult to ask them to take off shoes heels...

Seaslug44 also previously posted (in the Cold case thread) that all the girls were out of towners. Obviously the SK is talking to these girls beforehand & learning personal info on them - that they live elsewhere or came from elsewhere - lessening the chances of someone reporting them missing or at least slowing down that process knowing family is out of state, etc.

 

[dc20015]

Seaslug44 also previously posted (in the Cold case thread) that all the girls were out of towners. Obviously the SK is talking to these girls beforehand & learning personal info on them - that they live elsewhere or came from elsewhere - lessening the chances of someone reporting them missing or at least slowing down that process knowing family is out of state, etc.

And also lessening the chances that they would be familiar with their surroundings. Home court advantage so to speak for the killer.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I think it just started with the airing of Dark Minds and the fact that it suggested links between the 2. I agree, it should be moved from here on unless we're discussing links.

So, we finish the possibility of a link and then ask a moderator, whether we can get the stuff moved over (if we agree there is no link) or just leave it here (if some suspect a link).
I think, no link, the signature is too different. However, that's only my opinion.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Seaslug44 also previously posted (in the Cold case thread) that all the girls were out of towners. Obviously the SK is talking to these girls beforehand & learning personal info on them - that they live elsewhere or came from elsewhere - lessening the chances of someone reporting them missing or at least slowing down that process knowing family is out of state, etc.

In consequence, this would make him the stalker type again. Which dismisses the theory of a John living in Long Island and ordering himself prostitutes at a whim.

 

[dc20015]

So, we finish the possibility of a link and then ask a moderator, whether we can get the stuff moved over (if we agree there is no link) or just leave it here (if some suspect a link).
I think, no link, the signature is too different. However, that's only my opinion.

I just meant that any further discussion that only mentions the AC victims with no discussion of Long Island goes on in an AC thread. Not that we actually move what has already been written or decide there is no link. I don't think that is something we can decide at this point. There are opinions and that is it.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I just meant that any further discussion that only mentions the AC victims with no discussion of Long Island goes on in an AC thread. Not that we actually move what has already been written or decide there is no link. I don't think that is something we can decide at this point. There are opinions and that is it.

I just stumbled about a connection sad and somewhat funny between LISK2 and AC: Profiler John Kelly, the same one, who runs S.T.A.L.K profiled not only LISK2 but also ACK. And, as he told 48 hours in 2009 in reference to the AC-murders, his profiles are supposed to flush out the killer (as in not necessary true or factual, but intentionally manipulative). Now, that explains something. And in AC, it was a freaking mess, he started when his profile made them arrest like three total different suspects because each of them fulfilled exactly one of three criteria.
However, in reference to AC, he had to put in at least some real ideas to make it credible and he prfiled a mission-driven offender and also pondered about religious motives (I just found his stuff right now). So well, the idea is obviously not new, but led with some things, I couldn't follow up on to some weird results. Now, S.T.A.L.K is also working on LISK2 with the same MO.

 

[shadowraiths]

But you would subscribe on the word of a lot of differently diagnosed criminals, whose stories have as far been corroborated as possible? Would you subscribe on the work of a Universities psychological department then? Or do you know any cases in contradiction with the results and consequences of Ressler? Because that would be the easiest way, if you think, I talk bull, prove me wrong with real cases. You would need of course more than one, like I needed for example in the discussion of the likeliness of more than one SK in one area at one time.
So, here is my invitation to PROVE me wrong!

I, personally, could care what you choose to (or not to) believe. I do however care that you are making assertions that are not backed up by data. Moreover, if one were to engage in the post hoc ergo proper hoc reasoning you are relying upon to support your trauma model of serial killers, one could argue that since the majority of serial killers ate white bread when they were kids, white bread must cause people to become serial killers. That, of course, is quite obviously ridiculous.

As for the trauma model? Consider that a fairly large percentage of the population has experienced trauma. And yet, the number of serial killers does not even begin to approach the number of trauma survivors. This, in and of itself, suggests trauma is not a predictor to breeding a serial killer. No more so, for that matter, than the Macdonald triad is a predictor of sociopathy. The latter btw, which has never been scientifically proved. And yet, people regularly raise the triad to support their contention that so-n-so is a sociopath, and possibly even a serial killer. Not surprisingly, Macdonald arrived at his triad theory much in the same way Ressler et al have arrived at their trauma theory. In research, we call that sort of practice, junk science.

That said, here is a reasonable review of various serial killer etiology theories that includes a compendium of peer reviewed citations. ( link )

 

[Theforeigner]

Seaslug44 also previously posted (in the Cold case thread) that all the girls were out of towners. Obviously the SK is talking to these girls beforehand & learning personal info on them - that they live elsewhere or came from elsewhere - lessening the chances of someone reporting them missing or at least slowing down that process knowing family is out of state, etc.

FYI:
Barbara V. Breidor had lived in the Atlantic City area for many years.
Kim Raffo had lived in AC for ca 4 years.
Tracy Ann Roberts had been in AC for some time, not sure how long though.
Molly Jean Dilts was the only one who had arrived recent in AC.



Here is some additional info on the 4 AC victims:


http://www.dreamindemon.com/2007/11/20/black-horse-pike-marsh-murders/
I have also added when the victims was last seen, cause of death,Toxicology report results, their native home location, last know address and their motherhood status.


KIM RAFFO, 35. Born in Brooklyn, lived in Florida with her husband and two kids in 1990s, volunteering with the Girl Scouts and PTA. Enrolled in a cooking class at a technical school, and met a drug user who introduced her to cocaine and heroin. Her husband took the kids and left; Raffo and her boyfriend settled in Atlantic City, where she worked as a waitress before turning to prostitution. She was clad in a Hard Rock Cafe tank top when her body was found after a few days in the ditch. She had been strangled with either a rope or a cord.

4th AC victim, last seen Oct 19

Cause of death: killed by ligature strangulation

Toxicology report Kim Raffo: large amounts of cocaine

Kim Raffo, 35 native of Brooklyn, born on Long island, lived in Fort Lauderdale Florida from 1988-2002

Last known address: Kim Raffo: 100 block of Ocean Avenue in Atlantic City, NJ

Mother of 2 children, a daughter then 14, and a son then 12 years old.



TRACY ANN ROBERTS, 23. Grew up in New Castle, Del. She lived in Philadelphia before working in strip clubs in and around Atlantic City until she began hooking on the streets, where co-workers called her “the young one” or “the pretty one.” She lived in the same run-down area of seedy rooming houses as Raffo, whom she had befriended on the streets. Wearing a red hooded sweat shirt and a black bra, her body had been in the ditch anywhere from a couple of days to a week.

3rd AC victim, last seen Nov 15, 2006

Cause of death: died of asphyxiation "by unspecified means"

Toxicology report Tracy Roberts: large amounts of cocaine

Tracy Ann Roberts, 23, native of New Castle (some say Bear), Delaware, but alleged lived in Philadelphia, and at some point also in Georgia, before AC

Last known address: Tracy Ann Roberts: South Tennessee Avenue, Atlantic City, NJ

Mother of a then-5-year-old daughter.



BARBARA V. BREIDOR, 42. Raised in Pennsylvania, rented a house in Ventnor, just outside Atlantic City. She ran her family’s Boardwalk jewelry store and worked as a cocktail waitress before a longtime drug problem worsened and pushed her into prostitution. Prosecutors said she had a “lethal” level of heroin in her system at the time of her death. Authorities were unable to determine how she died. Wearing blue jeans and a long-sleeve zippered shirt, she had been in the ditch at least two weeks.

2nd AC victim, last seen Oct 17, 2006

Cause of death: her body was too decomposed to determine COD

Toxicology report Barbara Breidor: potentially lethal dose of heroin

Barbara Breidor, 42, native of Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania

Last known address: Lafayette Ave, Ventnor City, NJ

Mother of a daughter, then 9, who was adopted and lived with Barbaras sister in Florida.




MOLLY JEAN DILTS, 20. Grew up in Blairsville, Pa. Left behind a young son with his father in Pennsylvania to head to Atlantic City after a series of drug arrests. A former fast-food cook, she had never been arrested for prostitution in Atlantic City, although numerous streetwalkers said they saw her working in the sex trade as well in the short time between her arrival here and her death. Her body showed no traces of drugs, but she had been drinking just before her death. Clad in a denim miniskirt, a bra and mesh blouse, Dilts was believed to have been in the ditch the longest _ up to a month.

1st AC victim, Last seen Oct 7, 2006

Cause of death: Her body was too decomposed to determine COD

Toxicology report Molly Dilts: alcohol (no drugs)

Molly jean Dilts, 20, native of Blairsville, Pennsylvania
Last known address: not known

Mother of a then-18-month-old son who was living with her (Molly's father) father.

 

[MrsPC]

regarding out of towners - I was referring to the Gilgo 4 (and Gilbert)

 

[Theforeigner]

regarding out of towners - I was referring to the Gilgo 4 (and Gilbert)

Ups, I misunderstod, sorry.

 

[txsvicki]

comments/ideas like this are what keeps bringing me back to this forum, every once in a while, someone says something that hasn't been said or thought of. Thanks DC. That sounds like a perfectly good explanation if we are dealing with an experienced strangler.

Might I also add that this same reasoning could be applied to the request for some of the G4 to dress down, "jeans and a hooded sweatshirt etc"... If you aren't looking for an escort for the traditional role of being sexually aroused via heels and skirts, and you know how this plays out, then you would want them delivered exactly the way you want to suit your needs. It also makes me think that if that is the case, then maybe the whole thing goes down as a "car date" where it would be more difficult to ask them to take off boots or heels...

I've wondered if the girls might have been with this person a few times before and were comfortable, and knew that he had drugs. Mollie, the newest girl to that work, seems to be the only one dressed like the stereotype of hooker, so may not have known him yet. Many of the serial killers caught are very rigid, controlling, and OCD. What if he is a germ freak who makes them take off their shoes in his vehicle or home. He could even buy or even steal himself lots of shoes.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I've wondered if the girls might have been with this person a few times before and were comfortable, and knew that he had drugs. Mollie, the newest girl to that work, seems to be the only one dressed like the stereotype of hooker, so may not have known him yet. Many of the serial killers caught are very rigid, controlling, and OCD. What if he is a germ freak who makes them take off their shoes in his vehicle or home. He could even buy or even steal himself lots of shoes.

But why then the staging? We can think of a dozen of explnations for one and a dozen others for the other aspect, but we need an explanation for both together.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I, personally, could care what you choose to (or not to) believe. I do however care that you are making assertions that are not backed up by data. Moreover, if one were to engage in the post hoc ergo proper hoc reasoning you are relying upon to support your trauma model of serial killers, one could argue that since the majority of serial killers ate white bread when they were kids, white bread must cause people to become serial killers. That, of course, is quite obviously ridiculous.

As for the trauma model? Consider that a fairly large percentage of the population has experienced trauma. And yet, the number of serial killers does not even begin to approach the number of trauma survivors. This, in and of itself, suggests trauma is not a predictor to breeding a serial killer. No more so, for that matter, than the Macdonald triad is a predictor of sociopathy. The latter btw, which has never been scientifically proved. And yet, people regularly raise the triad to support their contention that so-n-so is a sociopath, and possibly even a serial killer. Not surprisingly, Macdonald arrived at his triad theory much in the same way Ressler et al have arrived at their trauma theory. In research, we call that sort of practice, junk science.

That said, here is a reasonable review of various serial killer etiology theories that includes a compendium of peer reviewed citations. ( link )

Well. I wrote a long response discussing the basic mathematically mistakes in your use of statistics. But obviously it was deleted by mod. Probably, forum rules don't stop unfair allegations but stop defenses and corrections.

 

[PickleChris]

Has anyone who saw the Dark Minds episode really thought into the events that the prostitute they interviewed told? About the 2 lifeless girls in the bed at the party? Might have SG seen something like this? It would explain her actions. Also the girl stated that 2 men were involved...That whole section of the special put up a new mindset for me. Need to hear what ME has to say about SG's COD.