PTL (Peach Tree Landing)

[Ghostwheel]

Good point that I had not thought of. The question is: Why? What was the intention behind resealing PTL? Why was their no talk about this beforehand? Another thing is, people don't have to go to PTL. If it makes them uncomfortable, they can go to another boat landing. This is not a school where kids have no choice but to go back it after a shooting. So this idea that they had to completely renovate PTL because people don't like going there now doesn't add up. Not wanting to go to a place where a murder possibly occurred, I understand, but how would resealing the road make it better? Maybe I could understand cutting down all the trees (don't get any ideas!) to make it less dark and scary, but why altering the road?

In general, resealing/repaving makes a parking area level. PTL had places where the asphalt had worn out, leaving divots that collected water (you can see it on Google Maps). Since concrete parking blocks were installed at the edge near the water, it makes sense to fix up the asphalt before installing them. Fixing the asphalt also shows where the edge of the driving surface is, so anyone building a garden would know where to start (instead of putting it where the asphalt has disintegrated and will be eventually paved over). And no one said they had to completely renovate PTL because people don't like going there. The community itself decided they wanted to make it look nicer. Their choice.

 

[Ghostwheel]

I am glad I'm not on trial. Defense teams re-visit evidence and crime scenes all the time. They re-test what the state has tested. The state often does a crappy job. I can cite cases if you want.

Just to be clear, I agree that making PTL more attractive is positive. I hope my post was clear. I just do not understand the need to re-seal PTL.

I don't believe any evidence was gathered there by the time LE decided the the alleged murder happened there, at PTL. But, that is completely besides the point.

The Moorers' attorneys should have the right, if they want it, of access to a "crime scene" as unchanged as possible, except by weather and other disturbances, the same disturbances as LE dealt with, by not cordoning PTL off at the very beginning of discovering Heather's car.

That in itself is bizarre: "Something is very wrong here, but drive the car home anyway. Don't process anything. Deal with it another day."

My life is not on the line, and neither is yours, in this case, but, if it were, I'd wonder why the scene of the crime was re-sealed, suddenly.

BBM: I always get a wry smile on my face when I see that type of statement because I remember in the Danielle Van Damm case, her mother making sure that LE was absolutely finished with everything in the house, because it was a mess and had fingerprint powder all over and her friends and family wanted to help her clean it up. She told them she was going to be really angry if they decided they needed something else after it was cleaned.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

In general, resealing/repaving makes a parking area level. PTL had places where the asphalt has worn out, leaving divots that collected water (you can see it on Google Maps). Since concrete parking blocks were installed at the edge near the water, it makes sense to fix up the asphalt before installing them. Fixing the asphalt also shows where the edge of the driving surface is, so anyone building a garden would know where to start (instead of putting it where the asphalt has disintegrated and will be eventually paved over). And no one said they had to completely renovate PTL because people don't like going there. The community itself decided they wanted to make it look nicer. Their choice.

How was the community made aware? Was it reported in the media before? Was it mentioned at a city council meeting? Was there a poll? Or would a resident of MB have to be obsessed with the case, follow multiple pages on FB to know about it?

 

[PPKik]

How was the community made aware? Was it reported in the media before? Was it mentioned at a city council meeting? Was there a poll? Or would a resident of MB have to be obsessed with the case, follow multiple pages on FB to know about it?

BBM

All great questions eileenhawkeye! I bolded your last sentence because I think that is closest to the truth. I heard about it the night before, and only that it was going to happen in the future.

I was pretty shocked when I found out the following day, it had already been done. That was very fast, and I wondered, Why so fast? So people have a nice place to sit where someone was murdered? It feels all wrong to me.


ETA: Adding a paragraph about a current trial in re: my earlier post on a possible need for the Moorers' defense attorneys to be able to inspect an "un-reconditioned" PTL. LE does not always find all the evidence; sometimes the defense does.

"Pistorius's lawyer, Barry Roux, cross-examined Mangena and said the defence's own forensic and ballistic experts would challenge the policeman's testimony regarding the sequence of the shots. Roux also said defence experts had recovered a bullet and fragments from the toilet bowl that police missed. Mangena said he was aware of that.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ding-oscar-pistorius-fired-first-shot-bullets

 

[jillycat]

I see the point of how did the PTL make-over and re-pave come about.

In the case of Jessica, the city council was involved and the community was well-informed through media. That particular park was chosen because, in addition to becoming a temporary memorial during searches for her and after a portion of her body was found, it had been a beloved place of childhood play and social engagement for Jessica. PTL is a crime scene.

I personally believe that humans have a need and desire to memorialize, hence, roadside tributes at accident scenes, and the placement of items of comfort or beauty at locations where crime or violent or untimely death has occurred. Jessica's make shift memorials, the Columbine crosses and teddy bears, Princess Diana's floral and candle displays, the laying of wreaths at Apple's Cupertino campus for Steve Jobs, etc. The PTL 're-do' strikes me as this sort of public shrine making, and perhaps, having the last say about the significance of PTL. But I would venture that it was more of a group-driven effort than a community effort. Perhaps that's why it feels a bit off center.

In regard to the issue of (LE) searches, it appears to me to be a resource driven decision by LE. I think two things stopped LE searches - they simply don't know where else to look and the M's are not going to talk, and, resources are being directed to the prosecution of the Moorer's, unless credible tips indicate a need to direct those resources to renewed searching.

 

[Dr. Know?]

It's well past due. jmo

 

[stillwatersc]

Any evidence to be retested should have been collected long ago. The scene has been contaminated and anything that was there after all the searches/vigils/sleuthing would not hold up in court anyway - for either the prosecution or defense.

 

[NFYIAMY]

What happened at PTL was a KIND GESTURE by a community - and more specifically - a community of business owners -- trying to show some love and compassion to the family of a local business who have suffered an enormous loss.

I've said this before and I will say it again - Myrtle Beach is a "little BIG town". It's a nice close knit community for local business owners - we love and support each other in ALL KINDS OF THINGS.

That's it. Nothing more - nothing less.

I've been to PTL many times myself -- this time of year - boaters and others will be all over that place - so any hope of keeping any evidence - or using it in any way - IMO would be mute due to all the traffic and people there who might not even know about this case.

Just :twocents:

 

[JerseyGirl]

New gardens, posters and seating areas have been added to the atmosphere, all of which were donated.

Members of the community said they plan to hold a vigil on the 18th of every month, as a way for them to bring peace to this landing … but also because Heather Elvis - and dozens of others in our county - are still missing.

http://www.wmbfnews.com/story/25285535/community-designates-site-to-celebrate-heather-elvis

 

[Aeronomy]

The resealing doesn't sit well with me either. I really don't get why you would alter the pavement of a crime scene when part of the alleged crime involved vehicles, more specifically, tires, on that pavement. Cracks, ruts, grip, all of that very well may play an important role when it comes to trial, but how can a defense physically test how a particular tire will adequately respond to an area or type of pavement if that surface has been altered from the time in which the crime supposedly took place?

 

[eileenhawkeye]

The resealing doesn't sit well with me either. I really don't get why you would alter the pavement of a crime scene when part of the alleged crime involved vehicles, more specifically, tires, on that pavement. Cracks, ruts, grip, all of that very well may play an important role when it comes to trial, but how can a defense physically test how a particular tire will adequately respond to an area or type of pavement if that surface has been altered from the time in which the crime supposedly took place?

Yep. I wonder if that was their intention. If the defense can't test evidence, that will impact their case. Very odd that this was done w/o the general public being aware, or being allowed to voice their opinion on it. If it was just a garden, I could buy that they want to make a nice memorial, but renovating the road? There is a reason that isn't being shared.

 

[justonedrin]

I went to PTL on Easter Sunday. I was the only one there. It was overcast and a slight breeze was blowing. The trees have objects in their branches that tinkle in the wind. It was extremely quiet and peaceful. But also very eerie and sad. You could definately feel that something dark had happened there. I drove around some other places yesterday as well as went back to PTL. Nice beautiful sunny day this time but same eerie sad feeling. Will type up my notes as soon as I get some rest. Tax season has exhausted me and the reason why it took me so long to take the drive.

 

[Madeleine74]

The resealing doesn't sit well with me either. I really don't get why you would alter the pavement of a crime scene when part of the alleged crime involved vehicles, more specifically, tires, on that pavement. Cracks, ruts, grip, all of that very well may play an important role when it comes to trial, but how can a defense physically test how a particular tire will adequately respond to an area or type of pavement if that surface has been altered from the time in which the crime supposedly took place?

So you think the pavement at PTL would have remained just as it was at the time of the crime on Dec 18th and when LE first did their scene investigation on/around Dec 20th, some 4+ months later?

What about the weather and natural erosion? What about general traffic at the boat ramp area after Dec 18th? What about vigils held there, with the attendant traffic from that? What about the general public? Lookieloos, searchers, boat launchers? Would any of those things have altered the pavement or somehow obscure evidence?

[modsnip]

 

[Aeronomy]

So you think the pavement at PTL would have remained just as it was at the time of the crime on Dec 18th and when LE first did their scene investigation on/around Dec 20th, some 4+ months later?

No. However, I do not think the pavement would have became a different type of pavement/asphalt materal in four months without being purposefully altered.

What about the weather and natural erosion? What about general traffic at the boat ramp area after Dec 18th? What about vigils held there, with the attendant traffic from that? What about the general public? Lookieloos, searchers, boat launchers? Would any of those things have altered the pavement or somehow obscure evidence?

No, not the physical properties of the pavement. There are many types of road surfaces. Each causing differences in tire response. Some treads slide more easily on different types of asphalt. Some treads spin whereas others are able to grip at differing speeds depending on the type of asphalt.

[modsnip]

 

[Madeleine74]

But allegedly the pavement was merely resealed and did not become an entirely different surface with different materials.

What disadvantage does pavement resealing create at a 4+ month old potential or actual crime scene when the scene has been open for anyone to use for most of that time anyway and in which natural elements would have altered the scene?

 

[jillycat]

Depending on how the scene was handled after the car was found (I don't think we really know) the state may have trouble enough with the PTL crime scene. I've never thought anyone but Heather and the Moorer's really know what happened there. I doubt that any substantive, if any at all, physical evidence was there.

I think that will be a defense point - where was there ever evidence of a murder?

In my view, the police have a dilemma - it would be difficult to successfully claim that Heather was murdered, but they don't know where and they have no evidence of a crime scene. But it's also potentially difficult to successfully claim they know she was killed at PTL, but have no proof of a crime there.

Between the two choices, PTL as the murder scene is the most practical for the prosecution.

I'm sure the state has more evidence to present, but I do believe the defense will get some mileage out of their own claim that a murder at PTL is simply a theory.

In regard to memorials, I personally don't think there's a particular time by which PTL should become one, if at all. Just as I don't think there's a time by which mourning or grief should be 'over'. What I find disturbing about Heather's case is that it was determined by LE that there is no place else to look unless they are tipped. Perhaps it was the timing (right after the Moorer's were taken into custody), but it bothered me that they made the statement that no future searches were planned. I think this will also be notable to the defense.

So, while the re-paving may get some attention from the defense, there are bigger issues still for LE.

I guess I'd be interested in knowing why re-paving was part of what looks to me like a rather temporary memorial scene. It looks some things were planted, but there are flower pots above ground and candles and other items that won't withstand weather or time. My personal view is that in addition to the need to memorialize, these PTL events are for the purpose of making a statement. This case has been characterized by two 'sides' sending emotionally packed messages to one another, in one form or another.

JMO

 

[Aeronomy]

But allegedly the pavement was merely resealed and did not become an entirely different surface with different materials.

What disadvantage does pavement resealing create at a 4+ month old potential or actual crime scene when the scene has been open for anyone to use for most of that time anyway and in which natural elements would have altered the scene?

I don't know what was and was not resealed. I do know that how tires respond to resealants (sp?) are different than general road surfaces. I did not state anything about natural elements altering anything. My statement had to do with the purposefulness of altering the pavement itself. Indeed, anyone could use and certainly anyone could deface it, however, the resealing as I am under the assumption had to be approved by the city/county, whatever government authority. That, to me, is a big difference.

 

[Aeronomy]

So, while the re-paving may get some attention from the defense, there are bigger issues still for LE.

JMO

I thought your entire post was good, but just wanted to comment specifically on this as this is my whole thing with the repaving or whatever. I don't agree with it as I stated. Not does it provide greater obstacles for the defense, but it gives the defense more leverage in pointing out incongruousness and such. I think there are so many slip ups by the prosecution that it could severely impair a fair trial from either side.

 

[jillycat]

I don't know what was and was not resealed. I do know that how tires respond to resealants (sp?) are different than general road surfaces. I did not state anything about natural elements altering anything. My statement had to do with the purposefulness of altering the pavement itself. Indeed, anyone could use and certainly anyone could deface it, however, the resealing as I am under the assumption had to be approved by the city/county, whatever government authority. That, to me, is a big difference.

It's the difference between a city council approving renovation of a park, in memoriam, and a group of community members deciding to resurface a crime scene on city/county land.

At least that's how I see it, even if it's simply the psychological element.

I understand the reaction.

 

[jillycat]

I thought your entire post was good, but just wanted to comment specifically on this as this is my whole thing with the repaving or whatever. I don't agree with it as I stated. Not does it provide greater obstacles for the defense, but it gives the defense more leverage in pointing out incongruousness and such. I think there are so many slip ups by the prosecution that it could severely impair a fair trial from either side.

I think there is merit in what you're saying. I can't imagine that the defense isn't going to chase any and all holes or weak points in LE's case.