PTL (Peach Tree Landing)

[jillycat]

I think these kinds of memorials are by nature temporary and a reaction to loss, and I'm not sure how resurfacing asphalt comes up in that. But to each his or her own.

And I think defense attys are interested in anything that might sway a jury.

I'm confident Heather will have a permanent memorial if she is found, or when the family decides that it's time. In the meantime, I think we'll probably see a continuation of public shrine activities.

 

[Aeronomy]

The more I think about it, how often does it happen that an alleged crime scene is altered? Crime scenes are one thing, but when there's no body or what-have-you and speculation for the most part as to where an actual crime commenced, is it normal to alter that suspected area prior to a trial?

I'm not talking about a temporary memorial of cards, flowers, etc that's generally set out somewhere that's the last known vicinity of someone being, but an actual alteration on a greater scale.

 

[Madeleine74]

I look forward to seeing the defense try and use this road sealing as a reason to get charges against their clients tossed. That is if they dare. The look on the judge's face should be priceless.

 

[jillycat]

I think we're going to see all kinds of claims at trial.

 

[Mahouston69]

I look forward to seeing the defense try and use this road sealing as a reason to get charges against their clients tossed. That is if they dare. The look on the judge's face should be priceless.

It won't get their charges tossed but it might get good forensic evidence tossed if it can't also be tested by defense experts because the surface, soil, gravel, markings on the ground or debris area has been changed. If that happens, it's the prosecutions fault for letting it happen. Let's say clothing thought to be Heather's stained with mud...gravel. That evidence does not match the new "soil and gravel" make up in the area she was known to be at PTL but it did match the old soil and gravel make up. Mud on boots, tires....How can the prosecution prove it is/was if the defense doesn't get the same match because the resealing used trucked in soil, gravel, asphalt...whatever? It wasn't smart.

 

[Aeronomy]

I look forward to seeing the defense try and use this road sealing as a reason to get charges against their clients tossed. That is if they dare. The look on the judge's face should be priceless.

I look forward to how this will all play out, but I'm smart enough not to speculate with judgement on how a judge will respond to anything. If the defense tries to have charges tossed for any reasons I don't know if I think it will be one particular instance that stands out so much, but rather an accumulation of a number of things.

 

[Madeleine74]

Given that evidence is typically photographed, documented, collected, given a number, stored, and then eventually tested in a lab, I have no concerns about PTL, the ground, the pavement, or any of it.

Whatever was found when LE was there, if anything was found, would have been collected and given an evidence number and sent off for testing. Any issue the defense might have in wanting to either see the testing or perhaps testing something themselves would be toward a piece of evidence collected by the state and sitting in the crime lab or wherever Horry County evidence is stored or, if it couldn't be collected, would have been documented and photographed. Evidence would have a chain of custody attached to it. Evidence that has no chain of custody would not be admitted in a trial.

Is it possible that LE missed a piece of evidence somewhere outside? Yes it's possible. Does LE have enough evidence for probable cause against these 2 defendants? The Solicitor & GJ determined they did. The defense will have an opportunity to see, read about, and look at and ponder any evidence the state has collected in this case. If they have the funds they might test something independently. Or they may choose to go with results from the state crime lab. Certainly the defense will question the evidence, as they should in an adversarial system.

 

[Madeleine74]

I am looking at it in terms of the defense and I'm considering the kinds of arguments I've seen defense teams make to try and impeach evidence:

- Chain of custody issues
- Not properly securing a scene before investigators and CSI folks can get there. (i.e. allowing others to be inside the taped area of the scene who have no purpose for being there).
- Testing procedures or errors (those are done in a lab)
- Statistical results used in DNA
- Documentation issues or errors, including photography, drawings, maps
- Errors in evidence handling
- Any possible contamination of evidence in the lab or after collection
- Any kind of scientific result that could have a subjective component to it
- Not following published procedures (LE or Crime lab folks).
- The honesty and/or integrity of people involved in the case.
- Qualifications or education of crime lab personnel


No where can I find an issue relating to a properly investigated scene in which LE did what they were supposed to do and then the scene was opened back up when they were all done and the CSIs were all done and some kind of road alteration caused an issue many months later.

 

[Madeleine74]

Thanks. Perhaps you could lead me in a good direction because I can't seem to find anything where an alleged crime scene is even released with the alleged suspect/s awaiting trial. I'm not trying to be rude, but could you provide an example or two? Thanks.

You can't find anything? Well here's just a few out of thousands:

1. OJ Simpson case. Outside the condo, the alley in back, the walkways. All investigated and released. The family are the ones who cleaned the blood on the walkways.

2. Scott Peterson case (house, marina, boat launch, park near Peterson house where SP said LP went walking, and months later the area where Laci & Connor's bodies finally washed ashore)

3. Nancy Cooper case. Body recovery site, taped off/investigated for a day or so, then opened back up. It was a new housing development, which continued. Houses were built there while the defendant awaited his first degree murder trial. House was sealed with crime scene tape, closed off for less than 2 days, then released back to owner.

 

[SStarr33]

Do they ever keep a crime scene locked up until trial?

 

[Madeleine74]

The only one I'm aware of is in the Jeffrey MacDonald case. That was government-owned military housing and the military police had control of the property. That particular apartment was kept empty for at least a few years, IIRC.

With public property or private property owned by an entity other than the government, I doubt there would be any legal recourse to force the area to remain sealed. It can take many months, at a minimum, until trial.

Oh! Here's another example:

- Boston Marathon bombing. Scene investigated, evidence collected (lots of tiny bits of evidence), photographed, documented and released to the public. The defendant has been awaiting trial for a year now.

And while I'm at it: all the various school shootings. Scenes closed for investigations, crime scene tape up, eventually released and opened for cleanup. Memorials created with eventual permanent fixtures to honor the fallen. Has not stopped one prosecution in which the perp was still alive.

 

[Madeleine74]

If Terry was allowed to drive the car home, then I don't think the officer thought it was abundantly clear that something was off. Also, even with the phone records and whatever was at PTL, it still was not enough for a search warrant.

Search warrants are not needed for public areas, only for private property and when the owner of the property doesn't consent to a search without a legal order. If LE wanted to search HE's car and TE gave his permission, they would not need a search warrant for that either, as long as TE gave his permission. As for a search of the M's property or house(s), LE would need permission or, for a SW, probable cause, and a signed warrant.

 

[jillycat]

I guess I haven't seen any claims that the crime scene should have been preserved as it was found on 12/19, over 36 hours after it became a crime scene. I think we all know crime scenes are released. I think it's understood that there's a difference between releasing a crime scene and re-paving it.

Was the tile sidewalk at Nicole Simpson's house re-tiled, or re-surfaced as a concrete sidewalk, before the jury took it's field trip? Or just processed, released, then cleaned of her blood?

And when I look at the noise TM's lawyer already made about her phone, I can't imagine how he hopes to build a case around someone else creating those texts. It would be like the Jodi Arias defense claiming there should be a mistrial because a juror made a remark, while acknowledging the motion would never be granted. Wait...that happened... something to do with a defense attorney's vigorous defense of a client, where no stone is left unturned.

It seems to me there's room here for ideas around how the resurfacing of the scene where the murder allegedly took place might be considered by the defense. I don't see anything outlandish here.

Personally, I think the altered surface probably has something to do with a desire to make the environment feel renewed. Since I think some of her belongings are in that river, and she hasn't even been found, I don't know how far that goes in transforming the area or memory of her murder. But I'm not there and don't know what's in the minds of those desiring the change.

Bottom line is, we don't know what the state is presenting or the extent to which its theory about PTL has teeth. So we don't know to what extent the defense has an open door to rebut the PTL theory or offer arguments about lack of evidence.

JMO

 

[SStarr33]

The only one I'm aware of is in the Jeffrey MacDonald case. That was government-owned military housing and the military police had control of the property. That particular apartment was kept empty for at least a few years, IIRC.

With public property or private property owned by an entity other than the government, I doubt there would be any legal recourse to force the area to remain sealed. It can take many months, at a minimum, until trial.

Oh! Here's another example:

- Boston Marathon bombing. Scene investigated, evidence collected (lots of tiny bits of evidence), photographed, documented and released to the public. The defendant has been awaiting trial for a year now.

And while I'm at it: all the various school shootings. Scenes closed for investigations, crime scene tape up, eventually released and opened for cleanup. Memorials created with eventual permanent fixtures to honor the fallen. Has not stopped one prosecution in which the perp was still alive.

Thank you. Hopefully this issue is put to rest.

 

[SStarr33]

I guess I haven't seen any claims that the crime scene should have been preserved as it was found on 12/19, over 36 hours after it became a crime scene. I think we all know crime scenes are released. I think it's understood that there's a difference between releasing a crime scene and re-paving it.

Was the tile sidewalk at Nicole Simpson's house re-tiled, or re-surfaced as a concrete sidewalk, before the jury took it's field trip? Or just processed, released, then cleaned of her blood?

And when I look at the noise TM's lawyer already made about her phone, I can't imagine how he hopes to build a case around someone else creating those texts. It would be like the Jodi Arias defense claiming there should be a mistrial because a juror made a remark, while acknowledging the motion would never be granted. Wait...that happened... something to do with a defense attorney's vigorous defense of a client, where no stone is left unturned.

It seems to me there's room here for ideas around how the resurfacing of the scene where the murder allegedly took place might be considered by the defense. I don't see anything outlandish here.

Personally, I think the altered surface probably has something to do with a desire to make the environment feel renewed. Since I think some of her belongings are in that river, and she hasn't even been found, I don't know how far that goes in transforming the area or memory of her murder. But I'm not there and don't know what's in the minds of those desiring the change.

Bottom line is, we don't know what the state is presenting or the extent to which its theory about PTL has teeth. So we don't know to what extent the defense has an open door to rebut the PTL theory or offer arguments about lack of evidence.

JMO

If the defense brings it up, the prosecution will say something like the only time in known history that a crime scene has been maintained until trial is the govt maintaining one for the Jeffrey McDonald trial.

And that will be that.

 

[Madeleine74]

Was the tile sidewalk at Nicole Simpson's house re-tiled, or re-surfaced as a concrete sidewalk, before the jury took it's field trip? Or just processed, released, then cleaned of her blood?

The property exterior was (eventually) redesigned so that lookiloos wouldn't easily find or recognize it. The house number was even changed! I don't think the tile walkway was replaced or resurfaced right away, unless there were damaged areas that had to be repaired. It really comes down to the condition of the property. The concrete walkways outside were washed down. They were not otherwise damaged though they may have been fixed/replaced as years went by, based on the city's maintenance schedule.

There is no law against bettering a dwelling or easement or land, after a scene has been released by LE, as long as the necessary paperwork has been obtained, depending on the jurisdiction and rules of the property location. In the case of PTL, it does not appear to be a legal issue, just one that some Interweb dwellers are having a tough time accepting, for some reason.

 

[Ghostwheel]

***RSBM for space***

What I find disturbing about Heather's case is that it was determined by LE that there is no place else to look unless they are tipped. Perhaps it was the timing (right after the Moorer's were taken into custody), but it bothered me that they made the statement that no future searches were planned. I think this will also be notable to the defense.

A personal observation from other cases I have followed: Each LE department has a limited amount of funds and resources for ALL of their cases. If they do not need to use their resources or funds for a case, they won't. Not meaning any offense to LE, Heather is not their daughter, and it is not their priority to find her body. It is their priority to see that justice is done if she was kidnapped/murdered. If they can do so without her body (and it appears they believe they can), there would be no reason to continue using resources to find her. This is not unusual if they have what they consider to be enough proof to convict without a body. The public never knows what is considered "enough" until the trial.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Why are we comparing cleaning up blood to repaving or resealing a road? They are not the same. Also, one of them is done by LE, the other was done by private citizens. One is necessary, and happens in every murder, the other does not.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

A personal observation from other cases I have followed: Each LE department has a limited amount of funds and resources for ALL of their cases. If they do not need to use their resources or funds for a case, they won't. Not meaning any offense to LE, Heather is not their daughter, and it is not their priority to find her body. It is their priority to see that justice is done if she was kidnapped/murdered. If they can do so without her body (and it appears they believe they can), there would be no reason to continue using resources to find her. This is not unusual if they have what they consider to be enough proof to convict without a body. The public never knows what is considered "enough" until the trial.

There are constant fundraisers in this case, yet no organized searches. I haven't heard anything about SAR or professional search teams in a very long time. I understand LE does not have unlimited resources, and that is why they need donations, but I feel the public is owed an explanation as to what they are being used for.

 

[jillycat]

If the defense brings it up, the prosecution will say something like the only time in known history that a crime scene has been maintained until trial is the govt maintaining one for the Jeffrey McDonald trial.

And that will be that.

And if the prosecution says she was murdered there, the defense will say how? By what method? Where is the evidence? And the state might have evidence, or they might have a theory.

We'll see.

But in the case of the scene, I don't see anyone claiming that PTL should be maintained as it was found on 12/19. It strikes me that a premise not even offered is being argued against. Because the premise that I'm reading is that resurfacing the pavement at the crime scene, not releasing the crime scene, might have impact on the state's case at trial.

I have no idea what the state will present in its entirety, nor do I have any idea how skilled the defense will be in coming up with something that trumps it. This is a wait/see for me. Particularly after the Anthony case.

Anything can happen in a trial.