CANADA Canada - QC, Montreal, WhtFem, 50-70yo, "Madame Victoria"

[Giuc0]

The Doe Network: Case File 206UFQC

The Doe Network:
Case File 206UFQC

Reconstruction of Victim by Michel Fournier

Unidentified White Female

• • Located on June 13, 2001 in Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
  • Skeletal Remains

Vital Statistics

• • Estimated age: 50 - 70 years old
  • Approximate Height and Weight: 5'3" - 5'7"
  • Distinguishing Characteristics: She had long, curly dark hair showing signs of grey. It's possible the woman suffered an injury to her shoulders or spine earlier in her life.
  • Dentals: False teeth
  • Clothing: She was wearing grey clothing normally worn by patients and hospital staff.

Case History
On June 13, 2001, a motorist parking behind the Royal Victoria Hospital discovered a skull next to the vehicle. The police found the rest of the skeleton under leaves in woods next to the parking lot, near the Allan Memorial Institute, a psychiatric hospital associated with the Royal Victoria Hospital and McGill University.

The body had probably had been there for about a year. An autopsy revealed no cause of death and no signs of violence.
Time and weather probably separated the skull from the skeleton and somehow it rolled into the parking lot.

Detectives searched through missing person reports across Canada. They also checked to see whether the woman might have been a staff member or patient at the hospital. But they were able to account for all the people reported as having disappeared from the hospital during 2000.

Investigators
If you have any information concerning this case, please contact:
Montreal Police
Detective Sgt. Gilles Rathé
514-280-2690

Source Information: Montreal Gazette

Return to the Unidentified Victims' Index





Radio Canada made a report about this UID (in French)

New info from the video:
- Might be a homeless lady. A RN said that when the hospital released homeless people without appropriate clothing, they give scrubs to wear
- Hair analysis showed that she moved from northern Quebec to Montreal in her last four years of life
- She was probably seriously ill, maybe cancer

 

[YaYa_521]

Briefly - Sandra (Sandy) Lorraine Andrews disappeared from Delaware on Nov. 16, 1990 around 11PM after her shift as a nurse at Methodist Manor House, a senior and assisted living facility (Methodist Manor House - Seaford, Delaware - Retirement & Assisted Living Facility | Facebook). Her car was found abandoned the next day with her belongings scattered about near the car and the car's keys were on the trunk lid.

Her daughters were grown and she was in the process of reconciling with her ex-husband whom she had divorced in 1982. Foul play is suspected in her disappearance, although no reason for the suspicion was listed. Important detailed information is below.

Sandra Lorraine Andrews

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
Sandra Lorraine Andrews – The Charley Project
The Doe Network: Case File 1997DFDE
Sandra Lorraine Andrews - Delaware Missing Person Directory​

Details -
First Name: Sandra
Middle Name: Lorraine
Last Name: Andrews
Nickname: Sandy

Last seen alive: November 16, 1990 at 23:15 , Seaford, Delaware
City: Greenwood (Seaford)?
State: Delaware
Zip: 19950
County: Sussex

Age: 44 (DOB - 2/25/1946)
UID 50 - 70 years old
Race: White White
Ethnicity: Other
Sex: Female
Height: 68.0 (5'8") UID - 5'3" - 5'7"
Weight: 130.0. UID - N/A
Hair: Black UID - long, curly dark hair showing signs of grey
Eye: Brown
Scars And Marks: Midline abdominal scar
Piercings: Bilateral ear piercing

Clothing and Accessories - (UID grey scrubs?)
Jewelry: Pin: 14 karat gold RN pin
Necklace: 14 karat gold herring bone 14-18"
Watch: 14 karat gold mickey mouse watch or peach colored 'swatch'
(both watches missing after last seen alive date).

Circumstances:
Andrews left her nursing job at the Methodist Manor in Seaford, Delaware around 23:15 on November 16, 1990. About 14.00 the next day, her 1985 Mercury Cougar was discovered abandoned behind a business on U.S. 13 north of Seaford. Andrews' purse and belongings were scattered on the ground near the driver's side door, and her keys were on the trunk lid. She was never seen again. Foul play is suspected. Andrews, a mother of two grown daughters, had divorced in 1982 but was reconciling with her ex-husband.

Seaford, Delaware to Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Google Maps​

Trip extended to Quebec City. ​

##

The UID's skull was found on June 13, 2001 at the Royal Victoria Hospital near the Allan Memorial Institute, a psychiatric hospital associated with the Royal Victoria Hospital and McGill University, which is nearby and where the rest of the skeletal remains were located. The remains are reported to have been there about a year which would be around June of 2000.

We have an UID skeleton with no cause of death and no signs of violence. Would there necessarily be evidence after a year if the death was a strangling or a suffocation? I know the eyes often provide evidence of both but UID's eyes had decomposed before her discovery. Does the hyoid bone decompose quickly as well? IIUC the hyoid bone often shows evidence of strangulation. Does it always or is there a chance the bone would remain intact and uninjured during a strangulation? Without lungs or eyes what is used as evidence of suffucation?

I ask these questions because if foul play is suspected in Sandy's disappearance can we make an assumption that she was strangled or suffocated then dumped there 10-years ago? I know the report says the remains were there about a year but are there major anthropological differences between a one-year-old skeleton and one that is 10-years-old? If not, then maybe we can investigate that route under the assumption that she was harmed and dumped there years prior.

If in anthropological investigations there is a clear difference between one and ten year old remains, then we might not spend much time investigating the foul play route. Instead, maybe we should try to determine why they suspect she may have met with harm. Simultaneously we might consider the possibility that she left voluntarily. Pardon my typos and rambling while I try to explain my thinking.

Sandy disappeared approximately ten years prior on Nov. 16, 1990. Is it possible she left voluntarily and if so, what did she do for 10 years and where was she? Why did she choose there to relocate? Did she have connections in Canada or was she running off to start anew? Reasons such as a new or prospective love, a career change or move, an opportunity to further her education among others are all valid when considering why a person leaves home.

She may have needed or wanted a complete new beginning in life. She was not newly divorced but they were reconciling. Given that foul play is suspected and her MP report made it a point to tell of the reconciliation, maybe she was afraid to tell him, her ex and future, she did not want to get back together with him so she agreed. Her two daughters were grown but there is no indication of her relationship with them. Perhaps they all wanted she didn't or she couldn't and decided she wouldn't endure any more abuse from him. We all know abusers rarely change without years of counseling and hard work. Even then it's tough. She was a nurse which suggests she may have been well aware of the ins and outs of DV. It could be she lied to them and her ex for various reasons.

UID's profile mentioned the decedent had a serious illness such as cancer. There are no prior injuries, diseases or illnesses mentioned in the MP's profile but could it be that Sandy had recently received a diagnosis that she didn't want to have to face with her family? There are people who after being diagnosed with terminal illnesses like HIV/Aids, cancer, and many other medical issues will self-harm or disappear. Why? Some folks say they couldn't handle the news, couldn't overcome the embarrassment or guilt while admitting to loved ones that they contracted an STD or similar stigmatizing illness. Some people out of love or concern refuse to become a burden on their loved ones or have them watch as the patient struggles through the last days of life. There are many other reasons but the point is that people do sometimes stage their own disappearance.

So in this case we have a misssing middle-aged nurse who no longer has small children at home and while she is supposedly on the verge of reconciling with a possibly abusive ex (SPECULATION/MOO). She leaves work and disappears. They find her abandoned car, with belongings scattered about outside of it and keys on the trunk lid. No report of blood, hair, or biological indicators of a struggle, which are not always left behind.

Did Sandra walk away? Did she stage her disappearance then moved on to another area leaving important things behind and undamaged, especially the car. The keys on the trunk lid is suspicious to me. Why there? Why not the ignition, door, floor, seat, ground, or roof of the car? The trunk lid. That tends to make me wonder if someone wanted others to not only find the car but also to be able to drive it away. Why? Her personal belongings were left behind is all they say about her "stuff". What did she have with her? If going to Canada do you need your driver's license and passport? Could she have crossed legally without those items? What about illegally? She certainly wouldn't need keys to a car she didn't have anymore or an ID/license for a country where she no longer lives.

The report says the hospital and investigators checked to see whether the woman might have been a staff member or patient but they determined no one had any knowledge of her identity. However they were able to determine "Madame Victoria" likely lived in Northern Quebec. Could she have lived in N. Quebec for 9 or so yrs before her last days then she went for treatment in Montreal? Did they check other hospitals, clinics, medical offices, etc.? Maybe she walked from a different medical facility in an attempt to get to the hospital?

I could go but you Sleuthers are smart and creative and experienced and bold, so jump in and let's figure this one out and give "Madame Victoria" her name back.


All of the above besides facts provided by profiles in the links is speculation and/or my opinion.

 

[Giuc0]

Hello,

Interesting ideas, but I have issues.

1) AFAIK, an autopsy can differentiate between one year & 10 years decomposition.
You are right to say that on the skeleton, you can't see if there was poisoning. But you can see if there has been a strangulation AFAIK.
If Sandy were killed & dumped there 10 years ago, clothing would also had been decomposed IMO.
The scrubs were decomposed, but not to the point of having spent 10 years at the same place.

2) I understood that they checked only for the Royal Victoria Hospital.
But keep in mind that if she was found nearby the Royal Victoria, she sought treatment there. IMO, she sought treatment at the ER and was released. Because she didn't have proper clothing to get out, the staff gave her scrubs.

3) They analyzed her last four years of life in her hair and they found that she moved a lot from N to S Québec.
Her most stable place was in Quebec, for ca 5 months.
If she rented, her leases were for <1 year at most.
IMO, Madame Victoria went missing 4-5, 6 years at most before her demise.

4) Yes, people can stage their own disappearance.
But my issue is that the hair analysis show that she went missing from N. Québec. And that she lived a transient lifestyle.
If she had lived in the US, the hair analysis would had shown different isotope. That alone is enough for a rule-out.

5) Madame Victoria had false teeth both on the top & bottom of her mouth (see video).
Even if your MP staged her disappearance, I can't reconciliate being missing & finding a way to get false teeth in a 10 years interval between last contact & the UID. Especially while trying to leave an abusive husband.
I can not explain how Sandy would had full dentition when she went missing and then, she is found with false teeth on the top & bottom in the 2000s, when Madame Victoria was found.
The most logical explanation for Madame Victoria's false teeth is that she got them before being missing.


FWIW, Sandy is not a match for Madame Victoria. There are too many irreconciliable differences for me, and some clearly don't make sense at all even by keeping an open mind.

 

[YaYa_521]

Hello,

Interesting ideas, but I have issues.

I love that have you issues with the ideas mainly because it gives a reason for dialogue with any one besides myself. So, let's go!

First I'd like to say that after re-reading my post I thought perhaps it might come across as smart-assy. In no way is that my intention to anyone reading these types of posts by me. I am known to question things (ha! Maybe I shouldn't have changed my typo from "thongs" ). Seriously, I questioned all of the above in the context that I do not know the answers not in a sarcastic sense. I share the (supposed) goal with every one else here which is to bring all MPs home!

1) AFAIK, an autopsy can differentiate between one year & 10 years decomposition. Thanks! This gives me an initial answer to my question without doing my own reasearch. I'll look into it further but haven't done so yet.

You are right to say that on the skeleton, you can't see if there was poisoning. I don't recall mentioning poison. But you can see if there has been a strangulation To clarify, I was asking whether and under what condiotiins is strangulation or suffocation evidence available and what type would be noticed.
AFAIK.

If Sandy were killed & dumped there 10 years ago, clothing would also had been decomposed IMO. In my opinion the clothing might not have been. Do the reports say anything about the degraded clothing? I'll have to go back to check. I'll also try to see if pics were provided. I don't remember at the moment as I've moved on to other cases. But I agree that over time clothing and many other things will decompose/degrade. The scrubs were decomposed, but not to the point of having spent 10 years at the same place. Can you direct me to wherever it is you've seen/read that information? Id like to check it out.

2) I understood that they checked only for the Royal Victoria Hospital.
But keep in mind that if she was found nearby the Royal Victoria, she sought treatment there. What evidence do you have to support that? Is there no other possible way she could have gotten there? Do only people seeking treatment visit hospitals? If she sought treatment there, why wasn't anyone able to recognize her?

IMO, - You're entitled to your opinion and so am I, but your opinion would have more influence on my thinking and opinions if you'd provide evidence or something with which I can make my own determination. No disrespect but you're not convinced of my 'opinions' and I'm not convinced of yours. That's okay. But I believe I've referred to actual evidence in both reports. I personally don't believe you have done the same. she sought treatment at the ER and was released. Because she didn't have proper clothing to get out, the staff gave her scrubs.

3) They analyzed her last four years of life in her hair and they found that she moved a lot from N to S Québec. She may have moved every month of those last four years of her life which, yes as you say, that's alot. Howver, the last 4 years of her life in my theories/speculations above she was in Canada, not the U.S. Therefore the isotopes would not show a connection to Delaware or any where else for that matter. Her most stable place was in Quebec, for ca 5 months. If she rented, her leases were for <1 year at most.
IMO, Madame Victoria went missing 4-5, 6 years at most before her demise. We don't know that 'Madame Victoria' was ever missing before her demise. We only know that they have not been able to identify her remains. On the other hand, Sandra Lorraine Andrews went missing 9-10 years before 'Madame Victoria' died. Why do I get the feeling that one of us does not have all the facts of the case straight?

4) Yes, people can stage their own disappearance.
But my issue is that the hair analysis show that she went missing from N. Québec. Above, I mentioned the issue I have with your hair analysis conclusion. And that she lived a transient lifestyle. Are you suggesting that people who stage their own disappearance do not or never end up homeless? If so, you provide your links to stats and I'll provide mine. Then we'll compare notes.

If she had lived in the US, the hair analysis would had shown different isotope. Above, I mentioned the issue I have with your hair analysis conclusion. That alone is enough for a rule-out. Imo, there aren't many scientific tests that alone, in and of itself, are considered absolute, definitive and unquestionable-not even DNA! Most certainly I would never, ever agree that isotopes would be evidence enough to exclude anyone from further testing at least. Would you accept that answer if it were the person whom you love the most?

5) Madame Victoria had false teeth both on the top & bottom of her mouth (see video). I don't understand the language of the video so I am not wasting my time. I'll take your word for it--for now. Others can confirm your info if they wish. When enough of them agree with you, I might believe it. If I learn French really well before then and decide to watch the vid, then I'll believe it.

Even if your MP staged her disappearance, I can't reconciliate (reconcile)being missing & finding a way to get false teeth in a 10 years interval between last contact & the UID. I could come with quite a few but I won't. I don't think it's as relevant as other evidence due to its ability to be easily explained to open-minded thinkers. Especially while trying to leave an abusive husband. What would an abusive EX- have to do with her getting dentures? Again, if she left voluntarily she could have done whatever she wanted and could do for her dental health. Having an abusive EX-husband doesn't prevent someone from getting dentures in Canada, I don't think.

I can not explain how Sandy would had full dentition when she went missing and then, she is found with false teeth on the top & bottom in the 2000s, when Madame Victoria was found. Perhaps you might consider doing research.
The most logical explanation for Madame Victoria's false teeth is that she got them before being missing. Who says this is the most logical explanation? You? Oh, ok. No disrespect to you but I'm done here. Have a good one.


FWIW, IMO, not very much! Sandy is not a match for Madame Victoria. There are too many irreconciliable differences for me, and some clearly don't make sense at all even by keeping an open mind. Wow! You're so smart, and nice, and friendly, and informed, and cool, and anything else you'd like to be.

》》》》》》》

Hello,

Interesting ideas, Thanks! but I have issues.

I love that have you issues with the ideas mainly because it gives a reason for dialogue with any one besides myself. So, let's go! This should be fun.

First I'd like to say that after re-reading my post I thought perhaps it might come across as smart-assy. In no way is that my intention to anyone reading these types of posts by me. I am known to question things (ha! Maybe I shouldn't have changed my typo from "thongs" ). Seriously, I questioned all of the above in the context that I do not know the answers not in a sarcastic sense. I share the (supposed) goal with every one else here which is to bring all MPs home!

1) AFAIK, an autopsy can differentiate between one year & 10 years decomposition. Thanks! This gives me an initial answer to my question without doing my own reasearch. I'll look into it further but haven't done so yet.

You are right to say that on the skeleton, you can't see if there was poisoning. I don't recall mentioning poison. But you can see if there has been a strangulation To clarify, I was asking whether and under what condiotiins is strangulation or suffocation evidence available and what type would be noticed.
AFAIK.

If Sandy were killed & dumped there 10 years ago, clothing would also had been decomposed IMO. In my opinion the clothing might not have been. Do the reports say anything about the degraded clothing? I'll have to go back to check. I'll also try to see if pics were provided. I don't remember at the moment as I've moved on to other cases. But I agree that over time clothing and many other things will decompose/degrade. The scrubs were decomposed, but not to the point of having spent 10 years at the same place. Can you direct me to wherever it is you've seen/read that information? I'd like to check it out.

2) I understood that they checked only for the Royal Victoria Hospital.
But keep in mind that if she was found nearby the Royal Victoria, she sought treatment there. What evidence do you have to support that? Is there no other possible way she could have gotten there? Do only people seeking treatment visit hospitals? If she sought treatment there, why wasn't anyone able to recognize her?

IMO, - You're entitled to your opinion and so am I, but your opinion would have more influence on my thinking and opinions if you'd provide evidence or something with which I can make my own determination. No disrespect but you're not convinced of my 'opinions' and I'm not convinced of yours. That's okay. But I believe I've referred to actual evidence in both reports. I personally don't believe you have done the same. she sought treatment at the ER and was released. Because she didn't have proper clothing to get out, the staff gave her scrubs.

3) They analyzed her last four years of life in her hair and they found that she moved a lot from N to S Québec. She may have moved every month of those last four years of her life which, yes as you say, that's alot. However, the last 4 years of her life, in my theories/speculations above, she was in Canada, not the U.S. Therefore the isotopes would not show a connection to Delaware or any where else for that matter. Her most stable place was in Quebec, for ca 5 months. If she rented, her leases were for <1 year at most. No broken leases allowed, huh?
IMO, Madame Victoria went missing 4-5, 6 years at most before her demise. We don't know that 'Madame Victoria' was ever missing before her demise. We only know that they have not been able to identify her remains. On the other hand, Sandra Lorraine Andrews went missing 9-10 years before 'Madame Victoria' died. Why do I get the feeling that one of us does not have all the facts of the case straight?

4) Yes, people can stage their own disappearance.
But my issue is that the hair analysis show that she went missing from N. Québec. Above, I mentioned the issue I have with your hair analysis conclusion. And that she lived a transient lifestyle. Are you suggesting that people who stage their own disappearance do not or never end up homeless? If so, you provide your links to stats and I'll provide mine. Then we'll compare notes.

If she had lived in the US, the hair analysis would had (would have--please!)shown different isotope. Above, I mentioned the issue I have with your hair analysis conclusion. That alone is enough for a rule-out. Imo, there aren't many scientific tests that alone, in and of itself, are considered absolute, definitive and unquestionable-not even DNA! Most certainly I would never, ever agree that isotopes would be evidence enough to exclude anyone from further testing at least. Would you accept that answer if it were the person whom you love the most whose isotopes don't match? Do you even know what isotopes are?

5) Madame Victoria had false teeth both on the top & bottom of her mouth (see video). I don't understand the language of the video so I am not wasting my time. I'll take your word for it--for now. Others can confirm your info if they wish. When enough of them agree with you, I might believe it. If I learn French really well before then and decide to watch the vid, then I'll believe it.

Even if your MP staged her disappearance, I can't reconciliate (reconcile)being missing & finding a way to get false teeth in a 10 years interval between last contact & the UID. I could come up with quite a few but I won't. I don't think it's as relevant as other evidence due to its ability to be easily explained to open-minded thinkers. Especially while trying to leave an abusive husband. What would an abusive EX- have to do with her getting dentures? Again, if she left voluntarily she could have done whatever she wanted and could do for her dental health. Having an abusive EX-husband doesn't prevent someone from getting dentures in Canada, I don't think.

I can not explain how Sandy would had full dentition when she went missing and then, she is found with false teeth on the top & bottom in the 2000s, when Madame Victoria was found. Perhaps you might consider doing research.
The most logical explanation for Madame Victoria's false teeth is that she got them before being missing. Who says this is the most logical explanation? You? Oh, ok. No disrespect to you but I'm done here. Have a good one.


FWIW, IMO, not very much! Sandy is not a match for Madame Victoria. There are too many irreconciliable differences for me, and some clearly don't make sense at all even by keeping an open mind. Wow! You're so smart, and nice, and friendly, and informed, and cool, and anything else you'd like to be.

 

[Giuc0]

Ok, I should have mentionned that my facts were in the video. The video is much more complete than the DN report. But it's a pity is was not translated into English, because it gives much more facts than the DN report.
The DN report is very incomplete.

1) Yes, people staging their own disappearance can end up homeless.
However, I think that based on the false teeth (this one is in the DN report & the video) (top and bottom false teeth is in the video), the most logical explanation is that she got these in Québec and she had them before her demise.
My issue with Sandra is the false teeth: how did she got them? While she became homeless, how did she get the false teeth?
I mean, how come a homeless person get false teeth while being homeless ? This one, I have no idea.

2) You can go to a hospital wo getting treatment nor working there.
But it doesn't explain her wearing scrubs.
If she wasn't a nurse and all the missing patients have been accounted, the most logical explanation is the homeless patient getting scrubs before she left. This one comes from the video, where the RN explains that they do give scrubs when releasing homeless patients from the ER.
I doubt she would had worn scrubs for visiting a relative.
But I'm open for a better explanation.

3) Suffocation, I don't have a clue on this one.

4) The abusive EX-husband is not my issue.
My issue is how could she have false teeth, therefore dental care, while American and homeless?
I know that there is universal healthcare in Quebec, but you must be affilated to the RAMQ to get it.
But I shall make more research about healthcare for homeless in Québec. Because if you are an illegal alien, you can't get the RAMQ at all.
And if she crossed legally the border as a tourist, she had to provide her own insurence.
My mom lives in Québec and as long as she's not yet a permanent resident, the RAMQ covers only doctor visits. She must pay her medicines out of the pocket.
Unless you have a private insurence.

 

[Giuc0]

The question for the false teeth is: with what money would Sandra have done them?
I can't answer on this one

 

[Giuc0]

I agree with you that in itself, being separated to abusive ex-husband, crossing the border.... doesn't prevent from getting false teeth by themselves.
I really don't think I am better than you, not at all. Even if it was not my intent, the fact my writing came accross is a consequence I can only acknowledge. I apologise to you.

In my mind, the issue was money. With what money did she get the dental care?
Because if Sandra became homeless in Quebec while being American, without legal residency, how did she pay for her false teeth ? If she had them for free, what resource could have provided to her?
That's why getting false teeth after crossing the border & becoming homeless in Canada is something I still don't understand. Because the RAMQ is pretty strict about that.
Not because Sandra's circumstances makes it impossible by themselves.
But I am still wondering about the obstacle called money.
How do you think Sandra would have solved this issue if she got her false teeth at Montreal?

For the top & bottom false teeth (in French): Corps non identifiés - Service de police de la Ville de Montréal - SPVM
This info is absent in the English version.

AFAIK, when you leave an abusive marriage, you often have only your clothing on your back.
One of my friend had to even leave her cochlear implant behind, mind you! (she was in Illinois when she fled home from DV. She relocated in Maryland with her son).

Yes, Sandra was a nurse. But as you say in English: "the children' shoemaker always go barefoot"". In French: "Les cordonniers sont toujours les plus mal chaussés".
Her professional knowledge inside out about DV didn't necessarily make her prepared about facing DV in her personal life.

And if she left her work as a nurse for crossing the border, she would not have received her wage from her Delaware employer after maybe a month or two.


What the video shows about where she was found is that it was known to the hospital's patients & workers.
So, if Sandra were killed in Delaware and dumped there, the perp would have needed to know the facility really, really well.
Did her ex-husband have ties with the Royal Victoria?
If Sandra were killed by someone of ex-h family, who is the most susceptible to have strong ties with the facility?

Also, on the video, they didn't find anything suggesting she was with someone when she died there.
Suffocation would not be visible on the squeletal (video), yes.

What the video says is that the head was severed from the body due to decomposition. Unfortunately, I have not been able to know more than that.


To answer your question about the other medical facilities, here is the map of around the hospital showing you the other facilities.

If she was a patient, she could not come from Sainte Justine, as it's a pediatric hospital only.
And the General Jewish Hospital, affilated to McGill University too, is on the other side of the city.
To answer about medical facilities at Montréal, you have the CLSC, which are basically community health centers. You go there to see your family doctor, get a follow-up for a chronic illness... They are open during daytime & patients get out as soon as they are finished. If they need to be kept at night, they are transferred to the nearest hospital.
The CHSLD, roughly nursing homes, don't dress patients with scrubs. At least, not in Québec.


To cross the border in these times, I leave this question to more knowledgeable people than I am. I think that you would had need your passport, but I am not 100% sure about that.


The problem with missing persons in Québec in those days is the lack of coordination. Police didn't have a specific team, only the Sûreté du Québec.
And I found cases of missing women only after the 2000s on LE websites


In the video, you can see a lady whom mother was reported missing in Kamouraska (N. Québec), but she is nowhere to be found either on the SQ website, nor the RCMP, nor the cities police websites.
The Canadian database for missing persons & UID is quite scarce for the Québec province :-/


I think that before going ahead, I'll contact Radio Canada to ask if they have a translated video about Madame Victoria report, which will make understanding easier.
And I'll contact the Québec coroner office to ask for the report (which is allowed per the QC law).
French is my mother tongue, English is my second language.

While there, FWIW, the coroner who took care of the case still works as a coroner.
Do you think that it's a good idea to contact him directly?

 

[Mindy71]

How far back would the hair go.. i have someone different in mind..would it show up if someone from the US came 20 years or even 40 earlier

 

[Giuc0]

How far back would the hair go.. i have someone different in mind..would it show up if someone from the US came 20 years or even 40 earlier

They found only four years earlier, they couldn't go further than that.

I think about Isabelle Bourgeot because she was seen alive around Montréal in 1992 but the issue is that she went missing from Limoilou.

 

[DSCrime]

Just read the whole thread. It's tragic that she passed away so close to a hospital, no one was aware and she's still unidentified. From the Enquete video it is clear that the parking lot area is busy. When I first read the thread I wondered if she passed away in a deserted parking lot area, but it's the opposite.

Don't have much to add. This would be a great case for genetic genealogy. I know that DNA Doe Project has a couple of Canadian cases they're working on, but both are from Ontario. "Nation River Lady" and Kenora "Millie" Jane Doe 2009

 

[GinaSeikwa]

I’m in Montreal and I have never even heard of this case. I’m also very familiar with the Royal Vic and surrounding areas. Can the DNA tests not give us a better indication of her genetic makeup? When I hear hospital patient and northern Quebec I think about the enormous numbers of indigenous patients that seek medical treatment in Montreal. Could she be Indigenous? I’m going to read up on this case more because I don’t think it was widely publicized in English Quebec which is surprising given that she was found downtown at the Royal Vic

 

[DSCrime]

Madame Victoria is about to get more exposure in English. Her case was mentioned on the latest Mysterious WV youtube channel:

According to the video, Madame Victoria is under consideration as a possible match to the missing persons case of Mary Jane Vangilder. Vangilder has been missing since 1945 from Ohio. Authorities are comparing their DNA.

Link to Vangilder thread for reference

OH - OH - Mary J. Croft Vangilder, 43, Plymouth, 1945

 

[Wolfounette]

You guys all have interesting theories but I don't think she was from the US. If they can state that she moved from North of Quebec, which are cities like Val-d'or and Rouyn-Noranda, Chibougamau, Chapais... Those cities have less than 35 000 people living there. If she does come from a place like that she speaks french, almost no one is bilingual up there. But she might have had some indigenous links. Most of people that voluntarly go "missing" end up either in Quebec City or Montreal. The sad thing is considering her age either she did not have living relatives, that she had cut ties with them or that she suffered from mental illness/addiction and ended up homeless.

 

[Bopit]

You guys all have interesting theories but I don't think she was from the US. If they can state that she moved from North of Quebec, which are cities like Val-d'or and Rouyn-Noranda, Chibougamau, Chapais... Those cities have less than 35 000 people living there. If she does come from a place like that she speaks french, almost no one is bilingual up there. But she might have had some indigenous links. Most of people that voluntarly go "missing" end up either in Quebec City or Montreal. The sad thing is considering her age either she did not have living relatives, that she had cut ties with them or that she suffered from mental illness/addiction and ended up homeless.

Yes, this is why I always tend to check the Canadian threads. There's a lot of nuance to our geographic locations (especially culturally in Quebec) and people don't just up and move the same as in the US. I agree, she is likely from a smaller area in Quebec, or potentially was homeless from a small community (in which sometimes those ostracised or hard on their luck are sent to "the city" where there are means to help people with addiction or mental illness). The Royal Vic was an incredibly popular hospital (in fact, I was born there and so were most people I know) but it is generally Anglophone so that does throw things off a bit. They had a neuro wing that was second-to-none, but I would suspect they would have checked patient records when the body was found. The hospital is built up on the mountain so I'm honestly shocked no one found her sooner. People drink up there, McGill is close by, people walk through the woods there constantly. I hope this one gets picked up by Genetic genealogy, might solve it much more easily.

 

[DSCrime]

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