Questions directed toward Burke

[madeleine]

Even with a detailed houseplan of that house in your hands you wouldn't be able to do all that magic,even if all the lights were on!
And why would an intruder spend all that time with the victim in that house?He would have taken her elsewhere imo.These kind of people don't like pressure I guess.
Re the DNA,what I don't like about IDI theories is,so he was soooo careful not to leave any prints/fibers/dirt/hairs and stuff but he managed to leave all that dna on her body?You could say,well,that's why he took her panties(to remove evidence) and undressed her afterwards,then why not be cautious and take all of her clothes?Sloppy,sloppy intruder.

And he did all this in the DARK.I don't buy it.
As far as I know from following other cases these kind of twisted sadic child killers are usually cowards,no way would they be so confident to do all this knowing that there are 3 more persons in the house.IMO

 

[BBB167893]

Even with a detailed houseplan of that house in your hands you wouldn't be able to do all that magic,even if all the lights were on!
And why would an intruder spend all that time with the victim in that house?He would have taken her elsewhere imo.These kind of people don't like pressure I guess.
Re the DNA,what I don't like about IDI theories is,so he was soooo careful not to leave any prints/fibers/dirt/hairs and stuff but he managed to leave all that dna on her body?You could say,well,that's why he took her panties(to remove evidence) and undressed her afterwards,then why not be cautious and take all of her clothes?Sloppy,sloppy intruder.

And he did all this in the DARK.I don't buy it.
As far as I know from following other cases these kind of twisted sadic child killers are usually cowards,no way would they be so confident to do all this knowing that there are 3 more persons in the house.IMO

It's not just unlikely, it's incredible.

 

[Badsleuth]

It's not just unlikely, it's incredible.

It also seems incredible that 2 Upperclass and in JR's case high IQ individuals could/would come up with this lame lower class scheme to cover-up a murder that doesnt make sense to begin with. Damn i wish this thing would be deifintively solved.

 

[tumble]

It also seems incredible that 2 Upperclass and in JR's case high IQ individuals could/would come up with this lame lower class scheme to cover-up a murder that doesnt make sense to begin with. Damn i wish this thing would be deifintively solved.

I think it's not so surprising that they couldn't come up with a better scheme. Especially as I think they were hampered by some ideas like worrying about the burial. I think PR just could not go along with disposing of the body outside, she wanted to have JB close by, and I think she was very concerned about how the burial should be done.

So, I think JB was not meant to be found that day. I think the Ramseys were not aware of how a kidnapping was going to be handled by the police. I think they thought LE would leave them along once the kidnapper didn't call. And then they could arrange a burial somehow, maybe they thought their priest friend would help them without involving LE.

I think the words in the RN speaks volumes, denying JB a proper burial was a big concern for the note writer.

I think the ligatures was a first attempt at a staging that probably JR deemed out of the question and the kidnapping was the second attempt. That plan fell apart when LE just woudn't leave the home.

 

[madeleine]

All those trips to the basement make my head spin.Won't mention John's now.I don't recall which officer went down to the basement and said the door was stuck?
Maybe it was locked?Who knows more about this?Thanks.

 

[tumble]

All those trips to the basement make my head spin.Won't mention John's now.I don't recall which officer went down to the basement and said the door was stuck?
Maybe it was locked?Who knows more about this?Thanks.

Officer French was the first officer examining the basement. He found the basement door latched on the outside. As he was loking for an intruder hiding he didn't bother to look inside the winecellar as noone could be hiding inside as the door was latched from the outside.

The latch is very interesting. The door didn't need to be latched as it stuck by itself. PR used to latch the door to keep the children out of the winecellar. So why did the killer latch the door????

JR said in his interview that he was surprised to find the door latched when he was loooking for JB. Go figure...

 

[Ames]

Officer French was the first officer examining the basement. He found the basement door latched on the outside. As he was loking for an intruder hiding he didn't bother to look inside the winecellar as noone could be hiding inside as the door was latched from the outside.

The latch is very interesting. The door didn't need to be latched as it stuck by itself. PR used to latch the door to keep the children out of the winecellar. So why did the killer latch the door????

JR said in his interview that he was surprised to find the door latched when he was loooking for JB. Go figure...

This has bothered French for years too. The fact that he didn't unlatch that door, and look inside. But, John did...he is the one that "found" her...because he knew where she was all along.. IMO

I think that either Patsy or John latched that door, for that very purpose...to keep the police from looking there. (Like you said..nobody could be hiding inside, since it was latched from the outside). Why the h*ll would an intruder do that? Makes no sense. Wonder if that latch was ever tested for touch DNA??

 

[madeleine]

There's something else that's beyond my understanding.So you find your daughter,she's cold(JR's own words),you take the duct tape off her mouth(makes sense) and the next thing on your mind is to untie her hands?Did he even check her pulse before?Did he check if she was still breathing?

 

[madeleine]

This has bothered French for years too. The fact that he didn't unlatch that door, and look inside. But, John did...he is the one that "found" her...because he knew where she was all along.. IMO

I think that either Patsy or John latched that door, for that very purpose...to keep the police from looking there. (Like you said..nobody could be hiding inside, since it was latched from the outside). Why the h*ll would an intruder do that? Makes no sense. Wonder if that latch was ever tested for touch DNA??

Don't think the result would have fit Lacy's theory.

 

[madeleine]

Officer French was the first officer examining the basement. He found the basement door latched on the outside. As he was loking for an intruder hiding he didn't bother to look inside the winecellar as noone could be hiding inside as the door was latched from the outside.

The latch is very interesting. The door didn't need to be latched as it stuck by itself. PR used to latch the door to keep the children out of the winecellar. So why did the killer latch the door????

JR said in his interview that he was surprised to find the door latched when he was loooking for JB. Go figure...

Thanks,forgot about that.
Well,their excuse was always "we thought it was a kidnapping"....why bother looking,huh?

 

[DeeDee249]

In yet another interview, JR said that he always kept that door latched so the kids wouldn't go in there. The latch consisted of a small piece of wood on a nail, that could be swiveled to prevent the door from opening. I hadn't read that Officer French didn't try to open the door because no one could be hiding in a room locked from the outside. This is very faulty thinking on the part of LE, because you can't be sure that there was only one perp, and one of them could have hidden something in there. What I recall him saying was that he tried the door, couldn't budge it, NEVER LOOKING UP to see the small wood latch at the top of the door, and simply walked away. At that time, as we know, JBR's body could have been there and if he'd found her, there'd be a lot more 'splainin' to do about those parents' fibers on the body. There is always the chance that at that time in the morning (shortly after the 911 call) the body may NOT have been there. There is speculation that JR may have put her there during the 2 HOURS he spent walking to his front door and "getting the mail". (Thanks, Det. Arndt).
I do not believe this theory, though. The livor mortis pattern indicate that the body was not moved after the first 20 minutes or so followng death. By 10 am when JR left to "get the mail", with the death occurring between midnight and 1am, rigor mortis would be well advanced, and whatever position she was in when hidden elsewhere would still have been evidenced when she was found.
No, sadly, Officer French destroyed a one-time opportunity to put this crime on the track to be solved by simply being too inept to see WHY a door "seemed stuck" (his words).

 

[tumble]

In yet another interview, JR said that he always kept that door latched so the kids wouldn't go in there.

I don't think you are correct here. It was PR who said this. PR also said that she hid christmas gifts in the winecellar and then latched the door.

Interestingly it was probably not BR who latched the door, he could not reach the latch.

 

[tumble]

A good post originally by BlueCrab regarding officer French's search, and some interesting thoughts.

-------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by BlueCrab
UKGuy,

Officer French was primarily looking for two things in the basement when he searched at about 6:05 AM: a place of entry/exit for a kidnapper; and the possibility that the kidnapper was still hiding in the basement. He found neither. French unlatched but didn't force open the stuck door to the wine room because it was latched on French's side of the door, making it impossible that the kidnapper was in the wine room -- so he left it and continued on with his search.

Fleet White, who searched the basement about 15 minutes after French searched it, was primarily looking for JonBenet and was calling out her name as he searched. When Fleet unlatched the door and forced the stuck wine room door open he leaned into the darkened room and looked around, but saw nothing unusual. He too didn't pursue the matter because, like French, the door had been latched on the outside, so JonBenet couldn't have been hiding in there.

However, when John and Fleet searched the basement at 1:05 PM they found the body in plain sight in the middle of the wine room floor, just one or two steps away from the door. Even though the room was dark when he had leaned in and peered into it at around 6:20 AM, Fleet reportedly insists that, since JonBenet was wrapped in a white blanket and almost directly under his nose, he would have seen the body HAD IT BEEN THERE! Apparently, in Fleet White's opinion, the body had been moved.

IMO this was the basis for the falling out between John Ramsey and Fleet White. It appears Fleet knows the body had been moved, and therefore he knows a Ramsey had to have been involved in the death of JonBenet. Fleet wanted John to come clean, but John chose the coverup route and began to throw innocent people under the bus, including an exasperated Fleet White and his family.

It looks like Fleet has since come up with other evidence that convinces him that a Ramsey is involved in the crime and the Ramseys are covering it up.

BlueCrab

 

[DeeDee249]

That is the first I have seen where Officer French was said to have unlatched the door. I'll have to try to search JR's interviews to see if I can find where the comments are attributed to him.

 

[Ames]

Thanks,forgot about that.
Well,their excuse was always "we thought it was a kidnapping"....why bother looking,huh?

Heck...they didn't even bother looking for clues. If your child had of been kidnapped, wouldn't you be looking for clues?? Yeah, that's what I thought...me too. John, in his 98 interview said that he went outside and looked around for 30 seconds! Yep, that's right....30 whole seconds. NOT..to be confused with 30 minutes, or even 30 hours. WHOA John, you sure did spend "alot" of time outside looking around for clues, that might have helped you find your "kidnapped" daughter, now didn't ya?
I cannot believe he actually admitted to that....30 SECONDS! (Insert smiley that is shaking his head in disbelief here).

 

[Ames]

In yet another interview, JR said that he always kept that door latched so the kids wouldn't go in there. The latch consisted of a small piece of wood on a nail, that could be swiveled to prevent the door from opening. I hadn't read that Officer French didn't try to open the door because no one could be hiding in a room locked from the outside. This is very faulty thinking on the part of LE, because you can't be sure that there was only one perp, and one of them could have hidden something in there. What I recall him saying was that he tried the door, couldn't budge it, NEVER LOOKING UP to see the small wood latch at the top of the door, and simply walked away. At that time, as we know, JBR's body could have been there and if he'd found her, there'd be a lot more 'splainin' to do about those parents' fibers on the body. There is always the chance that at that time in the morning (shortly after the 911 call) the body may NOT have been there. There is speculation that JR may have put her there during the 2 HOURS he spent walking to his front door and "getting the mail". (Thanks, Det. Arndt).
I do not believe this theory, though. The livor mortis pattern indicate that the body was not moved after the first 20 minutes or so followng death. By 10 am when JR left to "get the mail", with the death occurring between midnight and 1am, rigor mortis would be well advanced, and whatever position she was in when hidden elsewhere would still have been evidenced when she was found.
No, sadly, Officer French destroyed a one-time opportunity to put this crime on the track to be solved by simply being too inept to see WHY a door "seemed stuck" (his words).

That is what I remember too...French saying that the door seemed stuck.

 

[Ames]

A good post originally by BlueCrab regarding officer French's search, and some interesting thoughts.

-------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by BlueCrab
UKGuy,

Officer French was primarily looking for two things in the basement when he searched at about 6:05 AM: a place of entry/exit for a kidnapper; and the possibility that the kidnapper was still hiding in the basement. He found neither. French unlatched but didn't force open the stuck door to the wine room because it was latched on French's side of the door, making it impossible that the kidnapper was in the wine room -- so he left it and continued on with his search.

Fleet White, who searched the basement about 15 minutes after French searched it, was primarily looking for JonBenet and was calling out her name as he searched. When Fleet unlatched the door and forced the stuck wine room door open he leaned into the darkened room and looked around, but saw nothing unusual. He too didn't pursue the matter because, like French, the door had been latched on the outside, so JonBenet couldn't have been hiding in there.

However, when John and Fleet searched the basement at 1:05 PM they found the body in plain sight in the middle of the wine room floor, just one or two steps away from the door. Even though the room was dark when he had leaned in and peered into it at around 6:20 AM, Fleet reportedly insists that, since JonBenet was wrapped in a white blanket and almost directly under his nose, he would have seen the body HAD IT BEEN THERE! Apparently, in Fleet White's opinion, the body had been moved.

IMO this was the basis for the falling out between John Ramsey and Fleet White. It appears Fleet knows the body had been moved, and therefore he knows a Ramsey had to have been involved in the death of JonBenet. Fleet wanted John to come clean, but John chose the coverup route and began to throw innocent people under the bus, including an exasperated Fleet White and his family.

It looks like Fleet has since come up with other evidence that convinces him that a Ramsey is involved in the crime and the Ramseys are covering it up.

BlueCrab

After John removed the tape from JB's mouth...and took her body upstairs, Fleet walked over and picked the tape up and looked at it. Apparently he thought something was a little fishy about THAT too. My guess is, he realized that it wasn't even sticky....because it had been taken off of something else, and placed over her mouth. I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to know if that tape has ever been tested for fingerprints. I am hoping that the duct tape is in that "warehouse full of evidence that hasn't been tested yet..".and will soon be.

 

[DeeDee249]

After John removed the tape from JB's mouth...and took her body upstairs, Fleet walked over and picked the tape up and looked at it. Apparently he thought something was a little fishy about THAT too. My guess is, he realized that it wasn't even sticky....because it had been taken off of something else, and placed over her mouth. I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to know if that tape has ever been tested for fingerprints. I am hoping that the duct tape is in that "warehouse full of evidence that hasn't been tested yet..".and will soon be.

It may very well be there, but don't hold your breath for it to be tested. Remember, the RST lawyers scare the he** out of the BPD, and are already threatening to sue.

 

[madeleine]

Heck...they didn't even bother looking for clues. If your child had of been kidnapped, wouldn't you be looking for clues?? Yeah, that's what I thought...me too. John, in his 98 interview said that he went outside and looked around for 30 seconds! Yep, that's right....30 whole seconds. NOT..to be confused with 30 minutes, or even 30 hours. WHOA John, you sure did spend "alot" of time outside looking around for clues, that might have helped you find your "kidnapped" daughter, now didn't ya?
I cannot believe he actually admitted to that....30 SECONDS! (Insert smiley that is shaking his head in disbelief here).

Yeah.
Those weren't parents who were waiting for a call from a kidnapper.All the people they called,friends,the priest,they were preparing the stage for John to "find" JB.

And this>>
DOI (HB) Page 15:

"The note says the kidnappers will be watching. Maybe I can catch them looking at us. I race upstairs and I find a pair of binoculars. I start looking up and down the street. There's a strange vehicle in the alley behind the Barnhills', I note. After several minutes of watching the vehicle, nothing happens so I finally go back downstairs. The phone rings. Everyone freezes as I slowly pick up the receiver."


Maybe I can catch them looking at who,the police officers I called,my friends,after I've been clearly told she dies if I do so?

The entire book is a fairytale!

 

[madeleine]

In yet another interview, JR said that he always kept that door latched so the kids wouldn't go in there. The latch consisted of a small piece of wood on a nail, that could be swiveled to prevent the door from opening. I hadn't read that Officer French didn't try to open the door because no one could be hiding in a room locked from the outside. This is very faulty thinking on the part of LE, because you can't be sure that there was only one perp, and one of them could have hidden something in there. What I recall him saying was that he tried the door, couldn't budge it, NEVER LOOKING UP to see the small wood latch at the top of the door, and simply walked away. At that time, as we know, JBR's body could have been there and if he'd found her, there'd be a lot more 'splainin' to do about those parents' fibers on the body. There is always the chance that at that time in the morning (shortly after the 911 call) the body may NOT have been there. There is speculation that JR may have put her there during the 2 HOURS he spent walking to his front door and "getting the mail". (Thanks, Det. Arndt).
I do not believe this theory, though. The livor mortis pattern indicate that the body was not moved after the first 20 minutes or so followng death. By 10 am when JR left to "get the mail", with the death occurring between midnight and 1am, rigor mortis would be well advanced, and whatever position she was in when hidden elsewhere would still have been evidenced when she was found.
No, sadly, Officer French destroyed a one-time opportunity to put this crime on the track to be solved by simply being too inept to see WHY a door "seemed stuck" (his words).

I was always wondering whether he moved her or not but what you say makes sense.And sadly,I agree,who knows what would have happened if it would have been French that found her.