icedtea4me
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I read it many years ago. You will have to read it yourself to decide whether or not it is worth your time.
Questions you'd like answers to...
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I read it many years ago. You will have to read it yourself to decide whether or not it is worth your time.
UKGuy,
First of all I tried to send you a PM after hearing about the recent London Attack. Your handle could mean anything. However, I read it as "UnitedKingdomGuy." Therefore, I wanted to make sure you & your loved ones are okay, and, that you all are protected from all evil. The previous is for everyone on the board / community.
It is probably advantageous that you can subscribe to one theory. Doing so allows to look at the evidence in a meaningful way. I, on the other hand, am equally open to most theories (theories that revolve around the people inside The Ramsey Colorado Home.
If, for example, one or both JB parents found her - why didn't they phone for an ambulance? They find a horrific scene & automatically join forces to protect Burke? Given the timeline that we know - even if JonBenet was murdered shortly after arriving home from The White's Christmas Dinner - J&P would not have had much time to process everything. They also allow (arrange) for Burke to leave the house. By doing so, J&P relinquished all power that they had over Burke. The BPD could have arranged for a detective to speak to Burke when Burke was at The Whites. If Burke had behavioral issues that his parents could not control - hours after The Murder of JonBenet J&P think it is wise to let Burke out of their site/control. Burke at this point would be a "loose cannon," and, the parents would have wanted to keep Burke on a very short "leash."
Sometimes I wonder if the R Family Members that are discussed least are the ones that should have the focus.
Again, all R Theories are equal to me. All R Theories seem possible - yet all of them seem to have many questions too.
You have a much better understanding of this case than most. There are others on the JonBenet Forum with a very detailed understanding of the case too.
If you do have a chance - please read my post in the "who moved the chair" thread. It would be great to read your opinion on closed linear skull fractures, and, non accidental skull/head injuries.
For example, a person that suffers a head injury can lose urine and rectal control. Does this mean that it is possible that the urine stain in the basement is not the location of JB's death - but where JB lost control of her bladder due to her head injury?
Did the autopsy show that JB's head injury happened on the 25th/26th? Or, is it possible that it happened 48 hours earlier (perhaps around the time of the Christmas Party on the 23rd)?
The one thing that I know for certain is that JonBent Ramsey deserves justice - IMO, justice in the case of The Murder of JonBent Ramsey will result from the dedicated sleuths, like you, on this board. It is remarkable how members of this community kept the JB Forum so active.
icedtea4me
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If JonBenet received a blow to the head which caused an 8 1/2 inch skull fracture on 23 Dec, I would expect for others [i.e. people in church, Pasta Jay's, at the Whites' party] to show concern for her condition, wouldn't you?
He's nobody. A pathetic freak who wanted his 15 minutes.
icedtea4me,
Definitely! However, after looking at JonBenet Ramsey's autopsy describing the traumatic head injuries she suffered I read Non-Accidental Head Injury in Young Children, Early identification of mild traumatic brain injury in female victims of domestic violence, Pediatric Abusive Head Trauma Pocket Atlas : Traumatic Injuries, Skull Fractures by Singh Tomar Suryapratap, and a few other books (one I mentioned in another post)/medical texts.
I wanted to know if it was possible if JonBenet Ramsey could have been the victim of past non accidental head trauma and/or if it was possible that JonBenet Ramsey's non accidental head trauma happened before the 25th/early hours of 26th. Is it possible that JonBenet Ramsey suffered a non accidental head trauma on the 23rd - showed various symptoms of a closed linear fracture with displaced fragment / diastasic - did not receive medical intervention - the linear fracture caused JonBenet Ramsey's skull to dent leading to what appeared to be a coma-like state?
Did JonBenet suffer a non accidental acceleration/deceleration non addidental brain injury? An injury that ripped apart nerve endings connecting the brain cells - an injuring stopping neurons from sending messages to each other leaving the victim comatose?
There are accidental and non accidental brain injuries that go undetected resulting in death or life long adverse affects.
icedtea4me, I had always assumed that JonBent Ramsey's head injury happened, panic ensued to cover up the crime / conceal any and all abuse.
There have been non accidental and accidental head injuries / traumas in children (and some adults) that have gone undetected / unreported (in cases of abuse where the goal is to hide abuse -- and injuries (i.e., the child's abuser will injure child in places such as the v agina so that the abuse is not visible). An abuser hitting a child in the head causing a closed skull fracture (where no visible injuries are seen as the scalp is in tact & many of the symptoms can be excused as being, for example, "the child has the flu)" does happen.
We know that a 911 call was placed on the 23rd from The Ramsey Boulder Colorado Home. What if someone witnessed JB get hit in the head?
Also, children falling down the stairs typically does not cause a fatal head injury. However, if a child is being carried up/down the stairs by an adult man, the adult man falls, the probability of the child suffering a fatal head injury increases.
Is it possible that JB was carried from the car to her room - and there was a fall? Is it possible that JB was carried from her room to a location for abuse purposes and there was a fall (causing JB's head injury)?
People lose urine and rectal functions after suffering a non accidental / accidental head injury. Does the urine in the basement show the location of where JB lost urine function due to a head injury (a non accidental / accidental head injury that JB could have survived had she received medical treatment)?
Icedtea4me, I agree with you. However, after reading about head injuries - it is difficult not to wonder when JB suffered her head injury. It is also difficult not to wonder why JB's parents did not immediately get JB medical attention for JB. Does this lack of medical attention solely illustrate that JB's parents' only concern was covering up the abuse & victimization of JB, and, hiding as many aspects of their daughter's ongoing abuse (that the parents went to great lengths to hide from the public - their peers, friends, community)?
Hope this makes sense Icedtea4me. There have been people that have survived traumatic head injuries with medical intervention. There have been people (including children) that as a result of abuse have been victims of non accidental head/skull injuries that went undetected - and survived.
Had someone in JB's life been used to hitting JB in the head - containing JB in a position that the abuser enjoyed - injured JB so severe it led to her death (with the injuries happening on the 23rd, 24th, 25th (before/during/on the way home from The White's Christmas Party)?
Again, I hope that this all makes sense. I am extremely tired and should not be attempting to convey any thought patterns.
I will stay in touch with you icedto4me - you are much more knowledgeable about this case than I am (as are most people active in this forum).
Be Well, Thurston
PS: icedtea4me - now I am craving a large sweet tea with extra ice! Iced tea is so refreshing! My family and I are all hot and cold tea drinkers. Do you have a favorite tea? Do you ever attend high tea? As you may have noticed, your handle has me thinking "Tea!!"
Take care & I will reach out to you when I am not so tired. Until then, hopefully you can find something to understand in my above post. If you have time, please read books / medical text books on Non Accidental Head Injuries / Accidental Head Injuries. Such books are a great source when looking at JB's autopsy. The previous is a solid piece of evidence. Therefore, I would like to fully understand JB's autopsy. For example, baseball bats are more likely to cause open skull injuries that are extremely bloody. Due to this, it makes a baseball bat less likely to be the cause of JB's head injury.
icedtea4me, Thank you very much for replying to me! I very much enjoy the conversation - especially with a person as knowledgable as yourself.
MissUnderstood
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I think it's I have several friends maybe moooooo
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If PR staged this whole thing writing the RN even putting the cap back on the pen and putting it away why didn't she clean up the pineapple snack? She was a very orderly women. The pineapple doesn't match her and JR's stories. If they are made up stories? You can tell that those kids dished up the pineapples cause there is almost over flow in the Bowles.
Also we're all the Christmas present out of the WC by The night of the 25th?
Also we're all the Christmas present out of the WC by The night of the 25th?
Gnat,
BBM: This is an aspect of PDI that is curious. You would expect Patsy either to cleanup the breakfast bar or factor the pineapple snack into the R's version of events?
Another clue are the hair ties on JonBenet's head, q.v. autopsy report, when did they arrive?
Then there are the size-12's that Patsy said she placed into JonBenet's underwear drawer, so BPD had a look and there were none there, and they found no pairs of size-12's elsewhere in the house.
All this suggests the parents did not know everything that took place and JonBenet's assailant was not telling them either, so they missed a few Red Flags.
.
I thought the size 12's were out of a 'days of the week' set that PR bought for JR's daughter? I was thinking that they were down in the WC with the other Christmas gifts?
I'm all over the map with all this leaning towards BR being involved again! Did you see his Dr Phill interview?
It's a random one, but: Just been reading about the Adobe executive, Charles Geschke, kidnapped from his workplace parking lot in 1992. As soon as LE were contacted (admittedly 10 hours after the kidnapping) the FBI took over the Geschke house and phones and installed recording equipment and advised negotiations. Wondered why the Ramsey case didn't get this treatment, as John Ramsey was in a similar executive role at Access Graphics?
BoldBear
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The police didn't find the package of the size 12 underwear. When the Ramsey's moved out they were found in a box much later. Patsy said the package was put into the underwear drawer in JB's room. Since the package wasn't found during the search of the house, then the could have been anywhere. Many people believe that they were in the basement with Burke's packages, but no one knows exactly where they were because the package was not found by the police.
Burke's birthday is on January 27th. Some of the packages where left for his birthday.
Patsy says she bought them for JR's niece.
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-oversize-bloomies.htm
22 A. Well, I think that I bought a
23 package of the -- they came in a package of
24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
25 I think I bought a package to give to my
0081
1 niece.
QUOTE=icedtea4me;13418194]If JonBenet received a blow to the head which caused an 8 1/2 inch skull fracture on 23 Dec, I would expect for others [i.e. people in church, Pasta Jay's, at the Whites' party] to show concern for her condition, wouldn't you?[/QUOTE]
icedtea4me,
As if my post #1866 to you was not verbosely elongated, I wanted to add that you are categorically precise in regards to "others to show concern for JonBent's condition."
Both Accidental and Non Accidental Head Injuries may present dissimilar and unlike symptoms. In other words, two individuals with the same Head Injury may present various unlike symptoms. Symptoms for AHI (Accidental Head Injuries) and NAHI (Non Accidental Heal Injuries) include, but are not limited to:
headache
constant dizziness
vomiting
continued vomiting episodes
sustained confusion
speech that is slurred
stumbles when walking
trouble walking
water like fluid and/or blood in nose and/or ears
drowsiness including appearance of laziness, disinterest
exaggerated sleeping / exaggerated unsleepiness (unable to rouse / unable to sleep)
heightened episodes of mood swings (going from tired to aggressive & vice versa)
unable to concentrate / difficulty concentrating
aggressiveness; destructiveness; combativeness; an attitude of hostile forceful behavior(s)
change in sleep habits
not behaving normally / acting normally ("normal" for individual)
seizures
Due to JonBent Ramsey's Head Injury being a Closed Head Injury - is it possible that JB suffered a Closed Head Injury on the 23rd (unexplained 911 call from Ramsey Boulder Colorado Home), the 24th, early morning of the 25th, prior to leaving to go to The White Party on the 25th, shortly before leaving The White Party Party on the 25th, on the way home from The White Party on the 25th?
Is it possible that the person that inflicted JonBent's fatal Closed Head Injury had hit JB in the head previously - without causing death? Hitting JB on the head was one of JB's abusers of controlling JB / punishing JB / putting JB under her the control of her abuser(s)?
Below is a synopsis of The Murder of 6 Year Old Maurice Isaiah Torres (Isaiah). Isaiah was murdered by his parents Mauricio and Cathy Torres.
The Murder of Six Year Old Maurice Isaiah Torres (Murder Victim Maurice Torres' Murderers his biological parents):
Isaiah had signs of blunt trauma to his head, trunk and arms and legs, as well as multiple superficial lacerations and bruises, and blood had been found in Isaiah's rectum.
Six Year Old Murder Victim Isaiah Torres' biological mother, Cathy Torres, stated that she,her husband, 6 year old Isaiah, Isaiah's 6 year old twin sister, and Isaiah's 8 year old sister arrived home around 10pm on 03-29-15 from a camping trip.
Isaiah had complained of a stomachache earlier that day, but fell asleep on the drive home after taking some Pepto-Bismol and appeared normal when the family got home. Isaiah's Mother, Cathy Torres, gave Isaiah some green tea before he went to bed because his stomach was still hurting.
Isaiah's six year old twin sister, and, Isaiah's eight year old sister said Isaiah had a stomachache the day they returned from the camping trip and Mauricio had to carry their brother into the house when they arrived home, The sisters helped undress Isaiah so that he could take a bath and when Mauricio carried him into the shower, Isaiah fell. The girls said Isaiah was acting strange and was not really awake when Cathy put him to bed after the shower.
Murder Victim Isaiah Torres' father, Mauricio Torres, stated the family arrived home from their trip late Sunday night and that Isaiah had complained of a stomachache, had diarrhea and vomited a small amount. Mauricio said he had trouble waking Isaiah up after the ride home and that Cathy (Murder Victim Isaiah Torres' Mother) had helped Isaiah take a shower before putting him to bed,. Mauricio said he asked Cathy about whether they should take Isaiah to the emergency room, but Cathy said the hospital wouldn't admit him for just a stomachache.
Isaiah's autopsy ruled his manner of death was homicide. The cause of death was acute peritonitis due to rectal trauma, which occurred within 24 hours of Isaiah's death. The medical examiner's office also noted multiple healing, healed and acute blunt force injuries to Isaiah's head, trunk and arms and legs and said the child had suffered repeated, significant abusive injuries
During The Murder Trial of Six Year Old Murder Victim Maurice Isaiah Torres (Isaiah) in November 2016, Isaiah's Father & Murderer Mauricio Torres' defense said Mauricio Torres inserted a stick into Murder Victim Isaiah's rectal area / rectum as a form of punishment. Adding that his (Murderer Mauricio Torres') method of Rectal Stick Punishment was never intended to kill his son Isaiah Torres, and, the Rectal Stick was an act of punishment. The State Prosecutor said that Six Year Old Murder Victim Isaiah Torres was sodomized with sticks by his Father/Murderer that caused Murder Victim Isaiah internal injuries leading to sepsis. At Murder Victim Isaiah's Torres' Father/Murderer's Murder Trial, Isaiah's older sibling, now nine years old, testified in court describing the extensive abuse. Murder Victim Isaiah Torres also has a twin sister. Isaiah's twin sister was six years old when her twin brother was murdered by their parents. In March 2017 Cathy Torres, after the court of law finding her husband & Father of Six Year Old Murder Victim Isaiah Torres Mauricio Torres Guilty of Murdering Isaiah Torres, Cathy Torres (Mother & Murderer of Isaiah Torres) plead guilty to capital murder and battery. She signed a plea deal for life in prison for capital murder and 20 years for battery. Cathy Torres' attorney said ""Cathy Torres deeply regrets what happened to her son Isaiah including her own actions and decisions and while the facts of their lives may not ever be fully known we are very relieved this devastatingly difficult case is over," Pirany said.
Other Facts:
March 2004: Cathy Torres' Daughter / Maurcio Torres' step daughter accused Maurcio Torres of raping her twice when she was four years old. Cathy Torres' daughter's rape allegations against Maurcio Torres were made by The Alleged Child Rape Victim's paternal aunt. Due to lack of evidence, the case was closed.
July 2004: Child Abuse Hotline is notified in reference to same four year old child.Maurcio Torres questioned again in regards to Four Year Old Alleged Rape Victim. Law Enforcement questioned Maurcio Torres if he had sexually assaulted Alleged Four Year Old Rape Victim with an object, and, raped her. Four year old said Maurcio Torres told her not to tell anyone about the sexual abuse.
August 2004: Sexual Assault Exam on four year old is negative.
During Mauricio Torres 2016 Trial, the four year old alleged victim, now 17 described to the court the alleged acts of sexual abuse (including oral sex, forced to watch *advertiser censored*) she suffered as a four year old child by Mauricio Torres. She told how Mauricio Torres would make her brothers pull down their pants so that Mauricio Torres could use a belt to spank them. Prosecutors called Quinton Martin and Nicholas Martin previous stepchildren of Mauricio Torres testifying how Mauricio Torres would make his then stepchildren stay awake for days hitting them on the head with pieces of wood.
An autopsy ruled Isaiah’s death was a homicide caused by injuries related to rape and chronic child abuse, according to the probable cause affidavits for Mauricio and Cathy Torres. Source: KFSM-TV; KXNW-TV; 5newsonline
icedtea4me,
Perhaps others did show concern for JonBenet - such concern was the result of the 12-23 911 call. Perhaps someone saw JonBenet vomiting, showing extreme and abnormal tiredness, displaying confusion, having trouble speaking.
It seems as though the most common timeline for JonBenet is:
The Ramsey Family went to The White Family Home for Christmas Dinner
The Ramsey Family leave The White Family Home - All of The Ramseys are well, in good health & spirits
The Ramsey Family drive to deliver Christmas presents (after leaving The White Family Home & before arriving to their Boulder Colorado Home
The Four Members of The Ramsey Family arrive home safe and sound
Between the hours of arriving home & the early morning 12-26 911 call something horrific happens causing JonBenet's death
However, if JonBenet's autopsy indicated that she was the victim of chronic vaginal abuse -- isn't it possible that JonBenet was the victim of chronic abuse? Considering abusers often choose places on their victims' bodies where the abuse is easily hidden (i.e., vagina) -- is it possible that starting around December 23rd JonBenet was in the midst of The Abuse Stage of the Abuse Cycle? JonBent's abuser was abusing JonBenet in a manner similar to previous abuse - the abuser hit too hard, something unexpected happened.
Perhaps JonBenet was not feeling well on Christmas Day / was not feeling well at The White Family Christmas Dinner - and, JonBenet was given something to settle her stomach - perhaps JonBenet fell asleep on the way home from The Whites/Delivering Presents - once home JonBenet was still not feeling well & was given tea to settle her stomach. Perhaps JonBenet was not feeling well because she was already suffering from a Closed Head Injury.
Perhaps studying cases similar to The Murder of Six Year Old Isaiah Torres, Non Accidental Head Injuries, and Accidental Head Injuries may allow for skilled sleuths to find a clue - a clue that will give an accurate explanation to the events leading to The Murder of JonBent Ramsey?
What do we know about JonBenet, Burke, Patsy, and John's activities that December?
Why were they flying to Michigan? They did not have much time before their scheduled cruise. If Michigan was to celebrate Christmas with JAR & MR - why not have them come to The Boulder Home?
Does anyone remember reading an article about JAR scheduled to go on a skiing holiday that December - and he was not going Michigan? Later, JAR changed his plans to return to Boulder after the tragic news of JB became known.
Has anyone seen an interview with JAR and Melinda?
Seems as though after the loss of Beth & JonBenet - John would have wanted to keep all of his children close: JAR, Melinda, and Burke. And, as a family they would have all united around their father, their stepmother, their brother Burke.
Does anyone know how old JAR, Beth, and Melinda were when Patsy and John were married?
Are there photos of John & Patsy's wedding? John & his first wedding?
Thank you icedtea4me.
Thanks in advance to anyone that takes the time to read my posts and respond.
I have been reading the JonBenet Thread for some time now. The contributors to this thread deserve positive recognition! This is a 20 year old case - it is both remarkable and inspiring reading the heartfelt posts (some that are a result of countless hours of intense research). The Websleuth Community is a special place - the people here exceed expectations in terms of research, dedication, and resolve. A tons of thanks to everyone! Be Well, Thurston
BoldBear
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The police were working with the FBI, but agent Johnson and agent Johnson (no relation) never showed-up at the house. From my reading, they seem to be oddly absent from the house and the real crime but involved. Once the body was found and it became a murder, they only had an advisory role. That was a true stroke of luck for the killer. At this time in Boulder's history, you could have dumped a body at the entrance of the police station. If they discovered you were the murderer, the DA would have plead it down to probation.
Do you know when JAR and Melinda's birthdays are (JR's children from his 1st marriage).
Were JAR, Melinda, and Beth in John & Patsy's wedding? Do you know John & Patsy's wedding date?
Thanks to you, or the person that takes their time to answer these questions. It is greatly appreciated!
BoldBear
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Odd, I was writing about this the other day. It's a simple google search: "John Ramsey"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bennett_Ramsey
It's all there.
This is an excellent question.
It does seem as though Law Enforcement was cavalier in regards to the Kidnapping of a Six Year Old Child.
One of the FBI Agents has been interviewed (I cannot recall his name). He says that he drove to Boulder? to get his kit and spoke with Boulder Police Officers that were not on the scene. He describes that when he arrived at The Ramsey Home he was told that he was standing where JonBenet's body had been placed (after being found). He describes his shock that Police Officers had not "roped" off the area & thought of the "forensic nightmare" as so many people had been walking in that area.
It does seem as though the FBI would have arrived at The Ramsey Home much earlier.
Even the Boulder Police Officers that had responded to the kidnapping did not seem to do much. They must have read the "ransom note." Was there no concern for the threats in the "ransom note?" Did the responding officers have their police cars parked in front of The Ramsey Home?
The Police Officers that had responded to the "kidnapping" must have known that any clues would have been inside of the house. Why didn't they make everyone leave the home - with the exception of JR as he would have to answer the "kidnapper's" call?
It seems as though people were going and coming freely to and from The Ramsey Home.
None of The Ramsey Friends that were there were afraid that the "small foreign faction" was watching The Ramsey Home, and, would target them (The Ramsey Friends)? How were the adult Ramsey Friends able to leave their homes to go to The Ramsey Home? Did the friends leave their children unattended? If so, after finding out that JonBenet had been "kidnapped" none of the friends were scared that their children (home alone) would be targeted by the SBTC "kidnappers" that took JonBenet?
None of the friends attempted to contact the FBI themselves? Or, contact their elected law makers to get assistance in finding JonBenet?
Everyone simply sat around and waited - with no-one expressing concern regarding the threats in the "ransom" letter / concerns for their own children/family (worried that the "kidnappers" were watching)?
The R's, the R's friends, and the few police officers sat around for 6 or so hours (how long was everyone waiting at The R's) - doing nothing to find JonBenet, bring JonBenet home safe & sound, attempting to locate the SBTC small foreign faction?
Gnat,
No they were for Patsy's 12-year old niece Jenny, according to Patsy's account?
Patsy says they were up in JonBenet's underwear drawer.
So if the case were PDI do you not think Patsy would have gone to the bother of making sure there were size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer?
You have to wonder if the police collected all the unwrapped Christmas paper so they could map them to the gifts, i.e. size-12's?
I saw the interviews and BR appeared to be lacking something, smiling his way through the questions.
.
IMO I can see BR and JBR after eating pineapple going down to the WC to check out more packages. I have trouble agreeing with the idea that a 10 year old boy would be playing sex games. Too young imo
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