Read this and tell me the Ramseys aren't hiding something ...

[BlueCrab]

http://s92053900.onlinehome.us/97sapon.jpg

http://s92053900.onlinehome.us/98latersapon.jpg

In the pictures the mold, if that's what it is, seems to be growing on the walls, not the floor. It's hard to tell where the floor ends and the walls begin.

JMO

 

[Ivy]

Here's a set of pictures of the basement. One shows the white stuff on the floor and another on the wall. I agree it looks like saponification, not mold.

Set B

In the following set of pictures is a photo of the Hi-Tec print. Was the print made in the white stuff, or in something else?

Set D

The main photo index is here.
____
IMO

 

[Toltec]

I don't buy that 5:30am wake-up either. John told LE that the alarm went off, then Patsy tells LE the alarm did not go off....they are both lying.

Patsy gave Officer Trujillo a minute-by-minute replay as to what she did that morning. She said it took her 15-20 minutes to wash up and put her face and clothes on. She spent 5-10 minutes washing JonBenet's jumper on the second floor...so you have to figure that after discovering the note that she immediately dialled 911. I don't buy that for one minute.

That would mean that she would not have had time to wait for John to come downstairs...and for John to check on Burke...and for John to run downstairs to read the ransom letter....

nopey-nope.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Well all be..... There it is just staring me in the face, and was probably addressed before, yet I hadn't taken much interest in it. Look at the safe on the floor. There appears to be a lock or hinge that protrudes from the edge. Does anyone have info. regarding this safe, where it was from, did the Ramsey's purchase it, was it in the house when they bought it? And wasn't this safe REMOVED from the house when they sold it? Why? Why would anyone take the time to remove a safe from the floor in a basement?

Alarm bells are going off.

As for the time of death................the clincher for me is what was addressed on the tombstone. Christmas. The Ramsey's knew perfectly well when she died.

 

[Blazeboy3]

This is cooperation from parents who wanted justice for their murdered daughter? Oh yeah. I forgot. They said they weren't angry at whomever killed "that child." They only got angry when they were asked to cooperate with the investigation.
http://abcnews.go.com/onair/GoodMorningAmerica/gma000411Jonbenet_trans2.html
NEW YORK, April 11 - What follows is a transcript of Thomas' interview with ABCNEWS' Elizabeth Vargas.
ABCNEWS' Elizabeth Vargas: In the Ramseys' own book, which came out a couple of weeks ago, they have a chapter in there called "A Chronicle of Cooperation", where they say, 'We talked to the police the 26th, the 27th, the 28th. We gave them long interviews, we gave them handwriting samples, DNA samples, pubic hair samples. We gave them everything they wanted.'
Steven Thomas: Their assertion now that they cooperated fully with this investigation, I find absurd. We had to wait four months before we could interview these people surrounding-and ask questions face to face surrounding the death of their daughter.
Vargas: What do they mean then when they say, 'We talked to police on the 26th, and on the 27th, and on the 28th?'
Thomas: On the 26th they certainly did talk to us during the kidnapping phase of this thing. On the night of the 27th, there was this limited brief exchange, which I guess they're characterizing as an interview, when in fact the detectives were there to arrange an interview.
Vargas: (VO) as for that physical evidence, what they call non-testimonial evidence, by Colorado law, the police can easily demand samples of handwriting, blood, DNA.
Thomas: They had no choice but to cooperate with the non-testimonial evidence, because in a snap we could have gotten that through a simple affidavit. But what we couldn't make them do was answer questions. Yeah, they gave us blood, gave us handwriting, gave us hair, but when the case was red hot, when we needed the parents the most in those early critical days, we had to wait four months to be able to ask them the most elementary of questions.
Vargas: You say in the book as well that when the Ramseys did agree to sit down and talk to you, there were several conditions attached. What were they?
Thomas: We did have these conditions that were just not acceptable. Which detective would do the interviewing, who would be in the room, a doctor, the attorneys, the forum and time that the questioning would continue, and Patsy's I think was not to exceed an hour. And the FBI, said 'This is absurd. You cannot interview people under these conditions.' So, again, when they say, 'We offered to come in', it was with this incredible set of parameters that were just not acceptable to a police department.
Vargas: (VO) The Ramsey legal team wanted a deal. They asked for materials rarely given to suspects in a crime & including John and Patsy's prior statements, copies of the autopsy report and the ransom note, and police reports. Thomas says the Ramseys made it clear that if, and only if, they got what they wanted would the Ramseys sit down for a formal interview.
Vargas: But if you really wanted the information, what's wrong with agreeing to some of those conditions? Does that compromise you in some way? Does that give them too much of an advantage?
Thomas: Well, I'll tell you, advantage, what do you mean advantage? When the DA's Office was shoveling by the wheelbarrow full, our case file to Team Ramsey. Yeah, you talk about an advantage. somebody that the police wanted to question, I think I would be hard pressed to say, "Hey, detective, I'll answer your questions, but let me take a look at your case file there, before I answer". Believe me, a poor kid killed in the projects, a blue-collar working stiff, you know, a guy who's a carpenter or a welder out there, are not afforded these concessions that kept being made to the Ramseys, that's not what I would characterize as their chronicle of cooperation.
Vargas: (VO) The district attorney made a deal. The police were forced to turn over the documents.
Thomas: The Ramsey experts got to come into the police department and review evidence. They got to look at the ligature and the garrote. They came in and did studies of the ransom note. We were handing over photographs of evidence, including sensitive ransom note information. And at one point I told the police department, I told my supervisor. I said, 'I am not going to participate in this.' I said, 'I want my refusal duly noted.'
Vargas: (VO) We contacted several experts in general police and investigative procedures-they say these concessions made to the Ramseys were highly unusual. Finally, on April 30th, 1997, Steve Thomas sat down in a conference room at the district attorney's office. With Patsy were her attorney and the Ramsey's own private investigator. Thomas claims the entire interview was undermined. He says the police would now question intelligent, well-coached suspects who could study for their interviews as if preparing for a high school test.
(Thanks to Peggy Lakin, author of "Journey Beyond Reason" for bringing this interview to the public's attention once again.)
IMO

...this is what I get when I try to read your above-mentioned URL:;

Sorry
This content is not available. We apologize for the inconvenience. and NOTHING...so now what???

 

[LovelyPigeon]

why_nut, could you furnish some photos of saponification on cement floors/walls? I haven't been able to find one. Most of what I've seen on quick searches indicates that saponification on cement occurs when the alkaline material in cement reacts with the oil in paints used on it.

The floor and walls in the wine cellar room appear to be unpainted. I don't have any photos of saponification on cement floors or walls to compare.

I don't know if BPD or Smit or anyother agency scientically identified the material on the floor that the bootprint appeared in. Even if the material was identified as a fungus, a mold, or any other matter that doesn't mean it has to have been announced to the public what the material is.

Here are photos of the boot and foot prints online at the RMN:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_408302,00.html

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/art/extra/ramsey/img041.jpg
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/art/extra/ramsey/img040.jpg
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/art/extra/ramsey/img039.jpg
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/art/extra/ramsey/img038.jpg

 

[Ivy]

Thanks for the links, LP. I hadn't seen all those photos before .

 

[why_nutt]

why_nut, could you furnish some photos of saponification on cement floors/walls? I haven't been able to find one. Most of what I've seen on quick searches indicates that saponification on cement occurs when the alkaline material in cement reacts with the oil in paints used on it.

Here you go.

http://s92053900.onlinehome.us/concrete.jpg

http://s92053900.onlinehome.us/Concrete_cleaning.jpg

http://s92053900.onlinehome.us/example.jpg

Edited to add:

I hope everyone can see the clear similarities between the saponification in the lower edge of the cleaning picture, and this view of Ramsey basement's "mold":

http://s92053900.onlinehome.us/lwrmoldonfloor.jpg

 

[Jayelles]

I hadn't seen that photo of the Ramsey basement floor before WN. You are amazing. You have certainly convinced me that it looks like saponification and that therefore, the Hi-Tec print could have been there for some time.

Have you notified any authorities on this?

 

[BlueCrab]

Why Nut, I'm not convinced that we're looking at saponification on the concrete floors you showed in the pictures, since they weren't labeled by the company that furnished the pictures. LP was right when she said that all she could find in her search were pictures that showed paint problems due to saponification.

It appears that saponification only forms when alkaline from the concrete floor mixes with the chemicals of a paint or other covering that has been applied to the floor. The saponification forms between the concrete and the paint, causing the paint to peel.

The Ramsey basement floors didn't seem to be painted.

Is there any text to go with the company pictures you showed?

Jayelles, why would saponification on the floor allow conclusions to be drawn about how long it has been on the floor? Saponification is a chemical reaction that can "grow" at any time, just as mold is a biological reaction that can grow at any time.

JMO

 

[TLynn]

I remember way back - John Ramsey said he had swept the "wine cellar." I remember it because it was so out of character for JR to do that - but his point was - the footprint had to be recent because of his sweeping...(can you keep a straight face on that one?!)

 

[Ivy]

Now that it's been revealed (thanks to Lin Wood) that both Burke and his friend (Doug Stine?) testified before the grand jury that Burke owned Hi Tec shoes, and that investigators believe the print was Burke's, it would be interesting to know if John still claims he swept the wine cellar, and that the print had to be recent.
____
IMO

 

[Jayelles]

Why Nut, I'm not convinced that we're looking at saponification on the concrete floors you showed in the pictures, since they weren't labeled by the company that furnished the pictures. LP was right when she said that all she could find in her search were pictures that showed paint problems due to saponification.

It appears that saponification only forms when alkaline from the concrete floor mixes with the chemicals of a paint or other covering that has been applied to the floor. The saponification forms between the concrete and the paint, causing the paint to peel.

The Ramsey basement floors didn't seem to be painted.

Is there any text to go with the company pictures you showed?

Jayelles, why would saponification on the floor allow conclusions to be drawn about how long it has been on the floor? Saponification is a chemical reaction that can "grow" at any time, just as mold is a biological reaction that can grow at any time.

JMO

What convinced me most about Why_Nut's theory is that when he originally posted about it at *******'s, he posted two images of the basement which were taken months apart and the mould was identical in both photos.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

That "mold" or whatever it is in the pictures why_nut posted (and the links to those are given again in this thread) are of a section of the wall.

The material on a wall isn't as likely to be disturbed as the material on a floor.

(Added information, for those who don't know: the door into the windowless room was closed up and walled over when the house was sold a couple of years ago. The room is no longer accessible to anyone)

 

[LovelyPigeon]

TY, why_nut, but I can't even tell if "saponification" is the identity of the material in the photos. Could you link us to the online site that displays those?

Each of the three photos you copied seems to have paint as a factor.

The floor and walls of the windowless room appear to be unpainted.

 

[Jayelles]

The material on a wall isn't as likely to be disturbed as the material on a floor.

I agree, and I am sure YOU will agree that this very fact enables us to see just how slow-growing the mould actually was/is. had the photos been of a floor, it would have been impossible to tell what was regrowth after someone trod on it.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

No, I don't think it tells us anything about the growth of the "mold" on the floor. We don't know if the material on the wall is active or not. We don't know if disturbing the material on the wall would result in activating regrowth.

 

[Toltec]

Patsy told LE that she was in the wine cellar Christmas eve AND Christmas day removing and wrapping presents...did LE find any of Patsy's footprints?

 

[sissi]

Were Fleet's all over the place? He had gone down there to get a bottle of wine,
just days before. If the Pugh's weren't there,Fleet's weren't,and Patsy's weren't,it
would seem the hi-tech would be fresh?
Fleet,KNEW ,btw how to turn on the light,he did get the wine.
JMO

 

[Ivy]

Maybe the Hi-Tec print was the only print that was made in the white stuff (saponification, mold, or whatever it was), and was therefore the only one that was preserved.

____
IMO