Rebecca Zahau Wrongful Death/ADAM SHACKNAI FOUND RESPONSIBLE #5

[Tortoise]

A noose can only be started and tightened along a surface which is not sloping – it really is that simple.
As the injury was not noted by either Lucas or Wecht in their respective reports, it’s unclear if it’s an abrasion or perhaps a bruise.

I can't work out how to interpret this photo. Would her head be at the top of this photo, and so this is basically as if we are looking at the top of her back square on, and the injury is on her left shoulder, or is she photographed lying on her side with her head going off to the left side of the photo, and the main part we are seeing is her right shoulder blade and the sloping curve at the top right of the photo being the side of her body?

I would say it was the top of her back if it wasn't for the confusing area to the right of the photo showing an area above her shoulder that I can't identify, and also if she is on her side that extra abrasion or bruise at the tail of the main abrasion (very edge of the photo) would be on her neck, so that makes more sense to me.

 

[Tortoise]

<rsbm>
I can&#8217;t quite figure out the proximity and angle that would be used if it were the bag that caused it

Just to be clear I wasn't suggesting that the plastic bag caused the injury, but if the rope was going to be used to tie it and there was a struggle with him trying to tie it and her trying to get it off.

 

[Tortoise]

Also the abrasion on her finger puzzles me. With her hands bound behind her back they are not going to interfere at all with the "hanging" rope and so there is going to be no slide or burn on her finger caused by the rope.

Going back to an idea that she may have been struggling to stop the bag being tied around her neck and had her finger somehow hooked under the rope to prevent that, I could see it taking skin off but I don't know which shoulder was injured without knowing the perspective of the photo. The injured finger was on her right hand.

 

[Tortoise]

This looks to me like a fingernail mark

 

[Mica]

Yes, me too... I always thought possibly suffocation...but there is as litttle DNA from RZ in that &#8216;hanging room&#8217; as there is of AS, so what if most of the &#8216;activity&#8217; and abuse took place in the guest house ( as AS has already told us in his 911
Call!)?

Let&#8217;s say all the tying etc was done over there, and the bag was used to transport the long length of rope back to the hanging room, to be staged and tied to the bed. There would be a lot of &#8216;friction DNA&#8217; on that rope if it was removed from RZ body...maybe it&#8217;s transfer DNA to the inside of the bag from the ropes?

Of course, it could have been used for both purposes....

Thoughts?

I also wonder if the abuse took place in the guesthouse. Since I recently joined in this discussion, I wasn&#8217;t aware women&#8217;s clothing and make-up wipes were also found in the guest room (besides the women&#8217;s underwear found in the trash.)


Scorekeeper Post #29

Wow, you guys have been busy; took me forever to read all the post from 5:45 pm til now.......thanks so much for autopsy report!!

2 bedrooms in guest house. 1 with a suit case and made up bed (but no clarification as to whose suitcase or if anyone slept in this room)
1 with an unmade bed, woman's clothes on floor, makeup wipes and a glass with liquid....WTH

whose clothes?
whose dna on makeup wipes??
whose dna on glass???
whose dna on bed sheets????

c'mon LE, these questions should have been asked/answered - forensics 101...did they not want the answers????

did AS and RN sleep in this room together??? (sorry but this was my first thought 20 pages back.........)

did AS have a 'friend' over? If so, the statement that only AS and RN were the only ones at the mansion that night......was incorrect

Now, can someone get the interview transcripts???? They will probably make us all

UNBELIEVABLE

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...becca-Zahau-Nalepa-suicide-or-murder-10/page2

 

[Tortoise]

Mica, that reference to women's clothing could just be the women's underwear. I didn't see any reference to other clothing in the detective's report I read, and I don't know where I read it. It may have been part of the autopsy report but I'm not sure.

 

[Tortoise]

Make-up wipes always made me wonder if it was Adam wearing the make-up and women's underwear. You never know!

 

[dixiegirl1035]

If she actually died this way. It would explain adam's lie about using the table to cut rebecca down. If she was never actually hanging at all and he threw the rope over the railing, tied the rope to the bed, and realized that the rope was hanging higher than he expected, he had to have a way of explaining why he would've cut the rope so high up.

Interesting.... the bed could only be removed so far, and he found it couldn't or wasn't moved far enough?

 

[Imp]

I can't work out how to interpret this photo. Would her head be at the top of this photo, and so this is basically as if we are looking at the top of her back square on, and the injury is on her left shoulder, or is she photographed lying on her side with her head going off to the left side of the photo, and the main part we are seeing is her right shoulder blade and the sloping curve at the top right of the photo being the side of her body?

I would say it was the top of her back if it wasn't for the confusing area to the right of the photo showing an area above her shoulder that I can't identify, and also if she is on her side that extra abrasion or bruise at the tail of the main abrasion (very edge of the photo) would be on her neck, so that makes more sense to me.

This appears to me to be Rebecca's body, stomach down, viewed from above, and no longer on the grass. Perhaps on a wrap of some kind, or at the ME's office?

Another thing to consider is when the photo was taken. LE photo? Or ME photo? I have no experience with dead bodies, but I'm guessing whatever that mark is didn't look exactly like that at the moment she died.

If I'm stating the obvious, my apologies!

 

[Lezah]

I can't work out how to interpret this photo. Would her head be at the top of this photo, and so this is basically as if we are looking at the top of her back square on, and the injury is on her left shoulder, or is she photographed lying on her side with her head going off to the left side of the photo, and the main part we are seeing is her right shoulder blade and the sloping curve at the top right of the photo being the side of her body?

I would say it was the top of her back if it wasn't for the confusing area to the right of the photo showing an area above her shoulder that I can't identify, and also if she is on her side that extra abrasion or bruise at the tail of the main abrasion (very edge of the photo) would be on her neck, so that makes more sense to me.

Ok, so, I think Cynic has cropped the photo as it’s quite disturbing as it include the back of the neck and just above the ‘mark’ quite a deep furrow ( the indentation of the rope) in the left side of the neck.

(I’ve seen the photo from the ROA, but a) I’m useless and can’t post pictures, and b) I don’t want to post anything that may upset )

Perhaps I can ask Cynic to post another version if he feels it is appropriate to the discussion?

In the meantime, RZ is lying face down, just out of shot at the top of the image, the ME has her long hair pulled up and away from the back of her neck. Both RZs arms are upwards (imagine resting your forehead on the back of your hands if you are lying on your front)

Hope this helps....


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[Lezah]

This appears to me to be Rebecca's body, stomach down, viewed from above, and no longer on the grass. Perhaps on a wrap of some kind, or at the ME's office?

Another thing to consider is when the photo was taken. LE photo? Or ME photo? I have no experience with dead bodies, but I'm guessing whatever that mark is didn't look exactly like that at the moment she died.

If I'm stating the obvious, my apologies!

Yes, you’re right. Out of shot the ME has blue latex gloves on as he lifts RZs hair. ( I just posted and missed this, sorry)


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[Tortoise]

Ok, so, I think Cynic has cropped the photo as it&#8217;s quite disturbing as it include the back of the neck and just above the &#8216;mark&#8217; quite a deep furrow ( the indentation of the rope) in the left side of the neck.

(I&#8217;ve seen the photo from the ROA, but a) I&#8217;m useless and can&#8217;t post pictures, and b) I don&#8217;t want to post anything that may upset )

Perhaps I can ask Cynic to post another version if he feels it is appropriate to the discussion?

In the meantime, RZ is lying face down, just out of shot at the top of the image, the ME has her long hair pulled up and away from the back of her neck. Both RZs arms are upwards (imagine resting your forehead on the back of your hands if you are lying on your front)

Hope this helps....


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Thanks, yes it does. Knowing that her arms are up solves my queries. So the injury was on her left shoulder. I do think it's possible she could have grasped with her right hand behind her neck, leaving that crescent-shaped injury with her fingernail and scraping her finger on the rope. It would obviously have had to have been before her arms were bound, and I presume with her laying face down on the floor and not being able to use her arm in front of her neck.

I'm just toying with different ideas, because the possibilities are too numerous to be convinced of anything. I'm fairly convinced something happened with her finger though, before her hands were tied up.

 

[Seattle1]

In the spirit of potential CRIMINAL charges and prosecution, I'm very interested in compliant DNA collection technology. Not buying the "take a shower and no DNA" theory! Interested to know if any WS members have attended and/or experienced "Crimecon" event. TIA

 

[Mica]

In the spirit of potential CRIMINAL charges and prosecution, I'm very interested in compliant DNA collection technology. Not buying the "take a shower and no DNA" theory! Interested to know if any WS members have attended and/or experienced "Crimecon" event. TIA

Long but good article on DNA. The type of technology and methodology of testing used greatly affects the outcome. Also included in article, 6 known factors (with explanations of each) that can affect the amount of DNA transfer.

TOUCH DNA. WHAT IS IT? WHERE IS IT? HOW MUCH CAN BE FOUND? AND, HOW CAN IT IMPACT MY CASE?

http://ryanforensicdna.com/touchdna/

 

[cynic]

Ok, so, I think Cynic has cropped the photo as it&#8217;s quite disturbing as it include the back of the neck and just above the &#8216;mark&#8217; quite a deep furrow ( the indentation of the rope) in the left side of the neck.

(I&#8217;ve seen the photo from the ROA, but a) I&#8217;m useless and can&#8217;t post pictures, and b) I don&#8217;t want to post anything that may upset )

Perhaps I can ask Cynic to post another version if he feels it is appropriate to the discussion?

In the meantime, RZ is lying face down, just out of shot at the top of the image, the ME has her long hair pulled up and away from the back of her neck. Both RZs arms are upwards (imagine resting your forehead on the back of your hands if you are lying on your front)

Hope this helps....


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You're right - I've been cropping to avoid posting an unnecessarily disturbing picture.
The one I've attached is more complete and I chose not to have it appear within the post but rather as an attachment only.
For those who do not wish to view an autopsy picture, please avoid.
The picture also shows the only area in which the ligature slipped upward, but the starting point was at the level of the thyroid cartilage - well above the cricoid. The slippage was upward toward the knot which was just below the right ear and is well described in the autopsy report.
The mystery mark on the left side is unrelated to the ligature which was formed into a noose.
The location of the ligature furrow on the front of the neck is illustrated below.

 

[screecher]

You're right - I've been cropping to avoid posting an unnecessarily disturbing picture.
The one I've attached is more complete and I chose not to have it appear within the post but rather as an attachment only.
For those who do not wish to view an autopsy picture, please avoid.
The picture also shows the only area in which the ligature slipped upward, but the starting point was at the level of the thyroid cartilage - well above the cricoid. The slippage was upward toward the knot which was just below the right ear and is well described in the autopsy report.
The mystery mark on the left side is unrelated to the ligature which was formed into a noose.
The location of the ligature furrow on the front of the neck is illustrated below.

Okay, so we see the injury to the left, omg, there is another on the right where her arm/shoulder meets with her neck?
:gaah: It looks like a true forrow hwow:

Thank you cynic

 

[MsFacetious]

I&#8217;m sure this has been discussed but I heard about it today.
A murder staged to look like a hanging suicide.
Thought some of you might want to compare notes between them.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...icide-Ashburn-20-March-2014&highlight=Braulio

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Ok, so, I think Cynic has cropped the photo as it’s quite disturbing as it include the back of the neck and just above the ‘mark’ quite a deep furrow ( the indentation of the rope) in the left side of the neck.

(I’ve seen the photo from the ROA, but a) I’m useless and can’t post pictures, and b) I don’t want to post anything that may upset )

Perhaps I can ask Cynic to post another version if he feels it is appropriate to the discussion?

In the meantime, RZ is lying face down, just out of shot at the top of the image, the ME has her long hair pulled up and away from the back of her neck. Both RZs arms are upwards (imagine resting your forehead on the back of your hands if you are lying on your front)

Hope this helps....


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Does ROA mean Report of Autopsy? Could you please explain to this dinosaur, lol? TIA


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[questfortrue]

Thanks, cynic. Very helpful illustration of the anatomy, and a difficult-to-view photo of RZ’s injuries.

One analysis I read regarding Rebecca’s injuries suggested that after RZ was knocked down, she was pulled by her feet across something rough. But I’ve actually no solid idea as to how those injuries were created. However, on a different tack triggered by viewing these injuries, it reinforces my belief that she fought for her life and called for help before being permanently silenced. This is so obvious even without all the rest of the evidence.

When I witnessed the pain of Pari Zahau and Mary Zahau-Loehner, it was staggering to hear AS call this family ‘poseurs’ (posers). I’m still speechless that this family’s pain is characterized so cavalierly as posturing.

To have an idea of the caring family life Rebecca had, one has only to pay attention. Their love and care towards Rebecca was on view before and during the court case; their experience of her passion for life, in spite of challenges, created the knowledge that she would not leave them by suicide.

I didn’t notice that much was spoken by her younger siblings as one would expect. But I came across a poem by her younger brother. It was introduced in an interview of Rebecca’s brother in law with the hope that sharing this with others might somehow alleviate some of her younger brother’s sadness.

Many of you have likely seen this, but it illustrates my point of Rebecca’s love within her family.

Excerpt from Highlight Hollywood (http://highlighthollywood.com/2011/...clusive-interview-with-zahaus-brother-in-law/)

"The love you gave me I will never forget, Love so strong it could have calmed a storm, Love so strong it could have stilled newborn, Love so strong it became part of my life.

"You were taken away from me and I am broken, My heart and soul are devastated, My mind could be a mad man’s, My spirit is filled with hate and fury.

"But why try to live a life so rotten and cold? I shall break the chains of my darkened soul, I shall believe in your path of love that you lived, Your faith and joy I will try to recreate. All that you have done I will never forget, But before I begin my journey of love to the last breath,

"I will say that I will have Sorrow ‘Till Death."

To my sister Becky, who died in July.

In the meantime, as the Zahau family attempts to deal with unending loss, AS will return to his life in Memphis, to his job, to the enjoyment of dining out, to his relationship(s). And as he has adopted the role of the injured party, ranting about defamation and ‘wrongful prosecution,’ the only poseur I see in this picture, is AS himself.

JMHO.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Thanks, yes it does. Knowing that her arms are up solves my queries. So the injury was on her left shoulder. I do think it's possible she could have grasped with her right hand behind her neck, leaving that crescent-shaped injury with her fingernail and scraping her finger on the rope. It would obviously have had to have been before her arms were bound, and I presume with her laying face down on the floor and not being able to use her arm in front of her neck.

I'm just toying with different ideas, because the possibilities are too numerous to be convinced of anything. I'm fairly convinced something happened with her finger though, before her hands were tied up.

IIRC, it is astounding to me that this “abrasion?” wasn’t even noted or mentioned in the original autopsy. It has potential for significant meaning, and shouldn’t ALL marks on a body be mentioned in an autopsy? Isn’t that the point of a completely thorough autopsy?

MOO


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