Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #3

[Lilibet]

Hi Tortoise. First time poster and San Diego lawyer. Either side has the right to call experts designated by the opposing side. Now if the ME is out of the area, they would have to figure out travel etc. I always send trial subpoenas to witnesses I want to ensure are available for trial as a precaution but you don't have to.

I have enjoyed reading about the trial in this case as it is a case that always was of great interest to me. I am hoping to pop in to watch some of it live but not sure how hard it is to get a seat.

:welcome: sandiegolawyer! Thanks for answering. We LOVE our attorneys here on Websleuths. It would be great if you could become “verified” as an attorney by the owner. It just adds an extra layer of veracity to anything you say. Here’s a list of the verified professionals on WS and the procedure to follow.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?521-Verified-Professional-and-Insider-Members

Incidentally, my fil is a long-retired San Diego attorney. We love San Diego!

 

[Lezah]

I don't know if he was lying but if he was -- standing on the table gives the appearance that she really was hanging (off the ground).

I recall from what was shown in court that her feet would have been approx 20 inches off the ground from where the rope length measurements were verified. I remember thinking as this was explained that it was very lucky she didn’t hit the ground, when it was shown.

This fact also wasn’t lost on the jury IMO.

When we all looked at the rope over the edge of the balcony on the picture on the screen in court, and heard AS testimony, it just didn’t seem to ‘fit’, if that makes sense...with to what AS was saying he did.

It seemed clear from the height where the rope showed RZ was hanging AS could quite easily have reached to cut her down. Also, the was it before or after the 911 questioning, AS said words to the effect of , ‘...well I must have cut her down after I called as it sounds like that’s what I’m doing...’ it was so vague...

The table also looked very unstable, and AS said he got down holding RZ without any difficulty at all. ( I stood on my table at home which is the same height after this testimony to see what it’s like...there’s absolutely no way I could get down by jumping, on my own let alone with a dead weight) ( you guys should try this! It gives you perspective)

Also, Mr Greer kept stopping the tape after each section of the call, especially when there was a lot of ‘huffing and puffing’ and he said ‘what are you doing here?’ AS said, ‘ ...sounds like cutting her down ( there was lots of heavy breathing)

After several similar questions Mr G asked him to demonstate how he was holding AZ, and cut her down. AS did so, and had one arm around her imaginary body, and one in the air with the imaginary knife. Mr Greer then said, so where’s the phone? How did you do all that while holding the phone?

Everyone sort of went...oh yeah! Where is the phone!

AS then replied ....maybe it was in the grass, maybe I put it down..

Greer- But we could hear you breathing, it sounded as if was very close to your face...( it was VERY obviously close to his face from the sound IMO)

AS’ ..I don’t recall where it was...probably I put it on the grass... ‘ was the reply.

I’m paraphrazing here, from my best recollection, and this is my opinion only, but the general feeling for me was that it was another thing in the proceedings that just ‘didn’t add up’ , and I believe for the jury members too.

Mr Greer really needs to remind the jurors of these stand out moments in his summing up and closing argument, like revisiting the time there was the ‘gasp’ in the courtroom when the detective said she didn’t fingerprint RZs phone....

 

[Lezah]

I've been assuming it's part of the staging he did during or after the assault, but I really have no feel for that message at all. I tend to ignore it, believe it or not, because I just can't get a feel for it.

Guys, Did you see my post about the door painting? It was in the last thread?

There’s strong evidence RZ didn’t paint the message IMO...

 

[Lezah]

Bravo K_Z! Absolutely superb questions to ask this “substitute” witness. I am usually a lurker who reads everything with great interest, but had to come out of my shell to let you know how much I admire your postings. Thank you for taking the time to share such a wealth of knowledge and insight.

(By the way, I hold great admiration for so many others who so thoughtfully share on WS. [emoji4] You are such a great bunch! You also have my praise and gratitude!)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I second that BRAVO for K_Z!

 

[MyBelle]

It’s strange that AS got on a broken table, cut her down, her entire weight would completely collapse into him and the table stayed upright and he also didn’t stumble or fall coming off that table. 100 lbs of dead weight is a lot. And the fact that she was bound up the way she was would make the entire task just so awkward. I really think he made up the table story entirely. I think he may have already cut her down prior to calling 911, but regardless, I think he was standing on the ground when he cut her down. I just don’t know why he would make up the table story at all.

He was talking to 911 while he was getting the knife, grabbing the table and cutting her down so I think it is very unlikely he made up the story.

While on with the 911 operator, Shacknai went into the kitchen for a knife, shoved a rickety wooden table under Zahau and climbed up to cut the rope while holding her body across his other arm, he said.

He lowered her to the grass and started CPR chest compressions. The 911 dispatcher repeatedly asked him for his address, so he ran to the front to see the house numbers.

Under instructions from a different dispatcher, Shacknai rendered more CPR until medics showed up.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-shacknai-testifies-20180319-story.html

 

[Mica]

Guys, Did you see my post about the door painting? It was in the last thread?

There’s strong evidence RZ didn’t paint the message IMO...

I am convinced Rebecca didn’t paint the message.

 

[Lezah]

I am convinced Rebecca didn’t paint the message.

Originally Posted by Lezah

The message on the door...Something for consideration...

I have been pondering the message of the door for some time, and how the message was painted. Something wasn’t quite right about it...

I had made an assumption that the two paint brushes found in the room were used to paint the message, the small one initially, for the thinner, first ‘S’ - the other for the thicker stroke lettering. It was the deposit of the paint in that first letter S that stuck in my mind, something about it.

So, a few days ago I saw in evidence that only ONE brush was actually used, the thick one. The smaller one was unused.

This dawned on me this morning...

We know RZ painted regularly, and had done for some time - and we can therefore confidently assume she was relatively familiar with her artists tools and their basic uses, and limitations. She had several tubes of acrylic paint on her ‘painting room’ shelf ( third floor, upstairs from the ‘hanging’ room)

When looking at the door message again, rather than the smaller brush being used for the beginning of the message as I had first thought, this could not be the case. So what was used?

It now appears to me that it was very likely that it was the PAINT TUBE that was used to paint the first letter - ‘S’

The stroke markings, and the ‘gapping’ in the paint is highly consistent with the tube being used. Imagine trying to use it like a pen. As you squeeze the tube a bit of paint comes out, it ‘blobs’ initially, then ‘thins’ through the stroke of application, the surface eventually becoming empty, here is the blank section...then you squeeze it again...and you go through the same process as you apply more paint ...and so on and so forth.

Basically, it’s difficult, and it doesn’t work. ...and I discovered this very, very early on, when first using acrylic in tube form. You use a vessel or a palette to dispense the paint and take it from there.

IMO only someone very unfamiliar with dispensing paint would assume you could use the tube to paint the message.

The layering of the paint in the remainder of the message also indicates to me that the tube was likely used to apply the paint directly to the brush. The texturing and transition / thickness of the paint would be consistent with this as opposed to the use of a palette.

I would hypothesize that whoever painted the message retrieved a tube of paint from upstairs, ( familiar with the house, knowing where to go to get the paint) they grabbed the tube and commenced trying to write the message on the door. Unfamiliar with handling the paint and unaware of the paints viscosity, it was only after painting the first letter they realized it wasn’t going to work, so the went back to the room upstairs and got a brush, in fact they got two, incase one of them did it work, they didnt want to have to go back again...

IMO I think this is key, it goes to RZ knowledge and familiarity of the paint.

She knew more about acrylic than she did about knots....

 

[minorone]

He was talking to 911 while he was getting the knife, grabbing the table and cutting her down so I think it is very unlikely he made up the story.

While on with the 911 operator, Shacknai went into the kitchen for a knife, shoved a rickety wooden table under Zahau and climbed up to cut the rope while holding her body across his other arm, he said.

He lowered her to the grass and started CPR chest compressions. The 911 dispatcher repeatedly asked him for his address, so he ran to the front to see the house numbers.

Under instructions from a different dispatcher, Shacknai rendered more CPR until medics showed up.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-shacknai-testifies-20180319-story.html

"Coronado Fire Department Personnel responded, felt rigor mortis in her jaw (no other areas were checked), and advised that C.P.R. be stopped."
Autopsy Report, Scene Note page 4


I have read that rigor mortis affects the jaw first (within 1-3 hrs. of death).
Does anyone know how hard it is to give CPR to someone whose jaw has rigor mortis & is laying on arms/hands/ropes tied behind their back.

 

[MyBelle]

"Coronado Fire Department Personnel responded, felt rigor mortis in her jaw (no other areas were checked), and advised that C.P.R. be stopped."
Autopsy Report, Scene Note page 4


I have read that rigor mortis affects the jaw first (within 1-3 hrs. of death).
Does anyone know how hard it is to give CPR to someone whose jaw has rigor mortis & is laying on arms/hands/ropes tied behind their back.

Sorry, I don't know the answer but I think whatever CPR he was doing was being instructed by the second dispatcher. For all I know he may have just been giving chest compressions. Anything would be better than nothing, imo.

 

[Lezah]

He was talking to 911 while he was getting the knife, grabbing the table and cutting her down so I think it is very unlikely he made up the story.

While on with the 911 operator, Shacknai went into the kitchen for a knife, shoved a rickety wooden table under Zahau and climbed up to cut the rope while holding her body across his other arm, he said.

He lowered her to the grass and started CPR chest compressions. The 911 dispatcher repeatedly asked him for his address, so he ran to the front to see the house numbers.

Under instructions from a different dispatcher, Shacknai rendered more CPR until medics showed up.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-shacknai-testifies-20180319-story.html

Unfortunately, when AS was recounting his story, dragging tables, grabbing the body, holding RZ with one arm while he cuts her down with the other, leaping off the table...ahhh...he forgot he had to account for holding the phone next to his ear while speaking to the 911 operator throughout....

IMO that’s what the jury took away from that portion of testimony, just as I did.

...unless AS has a spare arm he hasn’t yet testified about!

 

[AZlawyer]

Thanks for weighing in, AZlawyer. It's always been my understanding that it's an exercise in futility to attempt to file lawsuits against government agencies.

Not always. I have one going right now, and have done some in the past. But governmental immunity takes care of 90% of what people generally want to sue for

 

[MyBelle]

Unfortunately, when AS was recounting his story, dragging tables, grabbing the body, holding RZ with one arm while he cuts her down with the other, leaping off the table...ahhh...he forgot he had to account for holding the phone next to his ear while speaking to the 911 operator throughout....

IMO that’s what the jury took away from that portion of testimony, just as I did.

...unless AS has a spare arm he hasn’t yet testified about!

During the adrenaline rush of the moment, one wouldn't be expected to remember every detail. His focus was following their instructions not on where he placed the phone. The Plaintiff's attorney has publicly accused him of two very serious crimes. Forgetting where he had the phone isn't one of them, imo.

 

[bourne]

I've been assuming it's part of the staging he did during or after the assault, but I really have no feel for that message at all. I tend to ignore it, believe it or not, because I just can't get a feel for it.

I'm positive he didn't write that on his own. Someone else prompted him to write it.

 

[bourne]

Unfortunately, when AS was recounting his story, dragging tables, grabbing the body, holding RZ with one arm while he cuts her down with the other, leaping off the table...ahhh...he forgot he had to account for holding the phone next to his ear while speaking to the 911 operator throughout....

IMO that’s what the jury took away from that portion of testimony, just as I did.

...unless AS has a spare arm he hasn’t yet testified about!

His testimony was absurd. He made it appear like he's some type of superhero instead of realizing he sounded like he was trying to brag and like you said, unless he had more than two arms/hands, it was so obvious he was lying. LOL

 

[bourne]

Originally Posted by Lezah

The message on the door...Something for consideration...

I have been pondering the message of the door for some time, and how the message was painted. Something wasn’t quite right about it...

I had made an assumption that the two paint brushes found in the room were used to paint the message, the small one initially, for the thinner, first ‘S’ - the other for the thicker stroke lettering. It was the deposit of the paint in that first letter S that stuck in my mind, something about it.

So, a few days ago I saw in evidence that only ONE brush was actually used, the thick one. The smaller one was unused.

This dawned on me this morning...

We know RZ painted regularly, and had done for some time - and we can therefore confidently assume she was relatively familiar with her artists tools and their basic uses, and limitations. She had several tubes of acrylic paint on her ‘painting room’ shelf ( third floor, upstairs from the ‘hanging’ room)

When looking at the door message again, rather than the smaller brush being used for the beginning of the message as I had first thought, this could not be the case. So what was used?

It now appears to me that it was very likely that it was the PAINT TUBE that was used to paint the first letter - ‘S’

The stroke markings, and the ‘gapping’ in the paint is highly consistent with the tube being used. Imagine trying to use it like a pen. As you squeeze the tube a bit of paint comes out, it ‘blobs’ initially, then ‘thins’ through the stroke of application, the surface eventually becoming empty, here is the blank section...then you squeeze it again...and you go through the same process as you apply more paint ...and so on and so forth.

Basically, it’s difficult, and it doesn’t work. ...and I discovered this very, very early on, when first using acrylic in tube form. You use a vessel or a palette to dispense the paint and take it from there.

IMO only someone very unfamiliar with dispensing paint would assume you could use the tube to paint the message.

The layering of the paint in the remainder of the message also indicates to me that the tube was likely used to apply the paint directly to the brush. The texturing and transition / thickness of the paint would be consistent with this as opposed to the use of a palette.

I would hypothesize that whoever painted the message retrieved a tube of paint from upstairs, ( familiar with the house, knowing where to go to get the paint) they grabbed the tube and commenced trying to write the message on the door. Unfamiliar with handling the paint and unaware of the paints viscosity, it was only after painting the first letter they realized it wasn’t going to work, so the went back to the room upstairs and got a brush, in fact they got two, incase one of them did it work, they didnt want to have to go back again...

IMO I think this is key, it goes to RZ knowledge and familiarity of the paint.

She knew more about acrylic than she did about knots....

Wow your scientific insight is amazing! I think you are totally right about the first letter having been done with the paint tube instead of brush!

Awesome train of thought, Lezah!

 

[Imp]

Guys, Did you see my post about the door painting? It was in the last thread?

There’s strong evidence RZ didn’t paint the message IMO...

I did see your post, Lezah, with your excellent thought that the tube itself was used initially to write on the door. I don't think for a second RZ wrote that message.

 

[bourne]

To the best of my recollection there were six ladies when I was last in attendance....one gentleman was excused as he was ill ( the judge excused him for the entire case)

I second what Lezah said about the audience. There is space.

 

[Imp]

Unfortunately, when AS was recounting his story, dragging tables, grabbing the body, holding RZ with one arm while he cuts her down with the other, leaping off the table...ahhh...he forgot he had to account for holding the phone next to his ear while speaking to the 911 operator throughout....

IMO that’s what the jury took away from that portion of testimony, just as I did.

...unless AS has a spare arm he hasn’t yet testified about!

It's pretty obvious, imo, that he was coached and rehearsed to the moon and back. When presented with questions not covered in his rehearsals, he just keeps repeating his nonsensical answers over and over. No thinking on his feet. And probably major concern about saying something outside the bounds of his rehearsed responses ... for obvious reasons, imo.

 

[wyatt]

During the adrenaline rush of the moment, one wouldn't be expected to remember every detail. His focus was following their instructions not on where he placed the phone. The Plaintiff's attorney has publicly accused him of two very serious crimes. Forgetting where he had the phone isn't one of them, imo.

There's nothing to remember though if he's breathing directly into the phone and conversing with the 911 dispatcher. Placing the phone down anywhere would not have registered those heavy vocals, imo. Someone would almost need three (3) hands to hold a 100 lb. body, cut through rope with a knife, AND have the phone next to their ear.

I originally read media reports of 2011 that AS said he cut RZ down and removed the gag BEFORE calling 911. Not sure why that account has changed. As it is now, it makes less sense.

(IMO)

 

[Mica]

"Coronado Fire Department Personnel responded, felt rigor mortis in her jaw (no other areas were checked), and advised that C.P.R. be stopped."
Autopsy Report, Scene Note page 4


I have read that rigor mortis affects the jaw first (within 1-3 hrs. of death).
Does anyone know how hard it is to give CPR to someone whose jaw has rigor mortis & is laying on arms/hands/ropes tied behind their back.

IMO, it’s impossible to give cpr to someone with hands tied behind their back.

This article mentions the possibility of rigor being broken. Since Adam was most likely trained in CPR, he would know the jaw needs to be opened (jaw thrust maneuver for unconscious patients or those with neck problems) when performing CPR. If I’m reading this correctly, after the muscle is broken it (rigor) doesn’t return. Any mention of the condition of the jaw in the autopsy?

>>snip

Rigor mortis
Shortly after death all the muscles in the body become soft and flaccid. At a variable time later, they become firm and rigid. This is known as rigor mortis. Rigor commences in the smallest muscles such as those in the face and the hands, and then extends to the limb muscles. Rigor can be ‘broken’ by stretching the muscle, for example by moving the jaw or the elbow, and does not then return.

https://www.encyclopedia.com/medicine/diseases-and-conditions/pathology/rigor-mortis